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There will be more MCU Spider-Man movies with Tom Holland
- Thread starter VulcanRaven
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InfiniteCombo
Banned
Seconded.while she was good in her limited time in dune part 1 , MCU needs to get rid of her
I have nothing against Zendaya, she may be a fine actress as it is. But the character of MJ is supremely annoying and ruins pretty much any scene she's in.
sol_bad
Member
There's a difference between being mentored and having the mentoring character essentially be a co-protagonist.
In the very first Raimi Spider-Man movie, Peter DOES get mentored, in a way: uncle Ben's "with great power comes great responsibility" is arguably the best 10 seconds of mentoring in pretty much any superhero movie. But that's all it is. 10 seconds (might not be literally 10, but it's a ballpark figure; using it to illustrate a point here, no need to take me to an international court of law if it's not exactly 10). Then the rest of not just the movie, but the TRILOGY, Peter is pretty much on his own.
Compare that with:
- Overt mentoring from Stark in Homecoming, with A LOT of Stark screentime. I mean, you can tell, not only is Stark in the promotional poster, so is Iron Man!
- I would argue this much screentime was unnecessary because a mentoring relationship between these characters had already been established in the third Captain America movie.
- The primary villain of Homecoming becomes a villain due to the actions of Stark and others. Was this the case in the comics? Vulture seems like a good villain and was honestly played brilliantly by Michael Keaton.
- The primary villain of No Way Home becomes a villain due to the actions of Stark, in a movie where all the technology is Stark-provided and Stark's presence looms heavily in almost every aspect.
I wouldn't call this "standing on his own." In fact, while writing my response I started thinking, "man, are these Spider-Man movies, or Iron Man movies?"
Iron Man isn't a co-protagonist in Homecoming and he surely is not a co-protagonist in Far From Home.
Tony Stark is in Homecoming for maybe 7 minutes, the scene after Peter first meets/confronts Vulture and falls out of the sky, the scene after the ferry and then at the end when he asks Peter if he wants to join the Avengers.
Peter is a kid and still learning.
He failed at stopping the ATM thieves without causing significant damage.
He failed at hiding his identity from his best friend.
He failed stopping Shocker when he was trying to sell weapons to Miles Morales' uncle. Couldn't enjoy the party due to his duties.
He fails in a way by hacking and unlocking his suits abilities before he is ready.
He failed at stopping Vulture during the truck heist. Disappoints his friends by missing the academic decathlon.
Just barely saves Liz at the Washington Monument.
He completely messes up on the Staten Island Ferry by tackling something out of his league, nearly causes hundreds of people to die. If an Avenger didn't show up to help there, that would have felt out of place.
He fails at keeping his identity secret from Vulture.
He fails at saving the Stark jet, just barely beats Vulture. Has to miss out on the homecoming ball with Liz.
These are all failures based on his own accord. And despite constantly failing, he keeps on trying and doesn't give up. If that is not standing on his own, I don't know what is.
As for Far From Home, it's been 8 months since Endgame and about 3 years since Homecoming (in terms of Peter living time), more than enough time for Peter's skills to improve. He has been through a lot and deserves a holiday after what he want through in Infinity War. He does fail a lot less in this film which is good but he is still a young naïve kid who trusts Mysterio when he shouldn't. He is the one that screws up by giving him EDITH and it is he who has to fix his screw up.
Regarding Stark Industries, yes it is the catalyst for the villains. But would Homecoming be any better if Damage Control was it's own entity and wasn't related to Stark Industries? Would Far From Home be any better if Mysterio was angry at a generic tech company instead of Stark Industries? It wouldn't change much, Pete still wouldn't be the catalyst for either villain, just like Pete isn't the catalyst for Green Goblin, Dr Octopus, Sandman, Lizard or Electro in the other films. Involving Stark Industries just makes it easier for general audiences to relate to something they know within the MCU.
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InfiniteCombo
Banned
That's a whole lot of text that still doesn't address my points effectively.
MCU Spider-Man gas not been able to stand on his own. He has needed Iron Man, and now Dr. Strange, to be major forces that mentor him and in a couple of occasions even move the plot forward. (Again, the entire plots of the first two movies are arguably because of Stark actions and tech, and it's clear as fuck in the trailer for the third movie that the events can't even happen is there's no Dr. Strange).
Peter being "a kid" is no excuse. I mean, Wanda was "a kid" when she started; Captain America literally says so when he's arguing with Iron Man in Civil War ("she's just a kid!!!"). And what kind of mentoring did she get? A 30-second pep talk from Hawkeye before she "walks out the door as an Avenger", another 30-second pep talk from Captain America after she fucks up at the beginning of Civil War, and.... That's it. Wanda still stands on her own; Captain America and Hawkeye are nowhere to be seen during the events of WandaVision. Now, there are other ways that WandaVision lets you know it's part of a connected MCU: oh yeah let's throw in that Jimmy FBI dude from the Ant-Man series, the annoying scientist chick from the Thor series, and Monica Rambeau from the Captain Marvel series. But they are just very secondary characters on a side plot, with the main plot being Wanda going through the stages of grief, fucking up even more and learning from her mistakes, and finally becoming the Scarlet Witch after her beef with Agatha.
Anyway, I stand by everything I wrote in my original post. As the previous time you and I got into an extended discussion, we'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree.
BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
Fiege and Marvel studios plotted out a stunning series of connected films within a shared universe over a decades time, which fed directly into a new decade of films, television shows, and animation. Meanwhile everything from DC/WB is incoherent. Their TV shows are separated from their films. They already soft rebooted one of their very few franchises (Suicide Squad), they have elseworlds films (Joker, The Batman) that are not in their shared universe, and overall their characters often only vaguely resemble their comic counterparts (see every character in Birds of Prey aside from Harley). Tonally their stuff is all over the place, though largely grimdark to an embarrassing degree (Titans).
So I'd disagree. DC/WB definitely has no solid plan aside from merely making as much content as possible whether or not their fans embrace it. Frankly, DC/WB made themselves look amateurish when they tried to replicate and ape Marvel and failed, all while they were supposed to be the tenured movie studio with much older and complex stories to draw from.
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