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[Baemono]

Let's consult with Sydney, and see what she has to say.

Unreal

 

[Mr Moose]

Probably a bit of both. The engine isn't very performant and the people using it suck/are lazy.

 

[analog_future]

Bullshit. Even on top end hardware that they're supposedly targeting these games have serious issues.

Anyone gonna tell him they also run like shit on top-tier hardware?

It seems to run like ass on everything though, so that's hardly an excuse.

This isn't true, though. Some games run great (Avowed, Robocop: Rogue City, Fortnite, The Finals, Hellblade II, etc.. etc..), some don't (MGS Delta, Silent Hill 2, etc..).

That variation alone tells us that it's not just an issue with the engine. I'm sure there's some quirks to overcome, but in the end it's an issue with optimization (devs) and the fact that the hardware it's being pushed onto (PS5/XSX) is underpowered.

 

[Baemono]

Robocop: Rogue City

I believe it had issues at launch

 

[Neofire]

I kinda agree with him to a certain extent because some UE5 ports actually run good like fortnite and lords of the fallen. Now some titles are definitely suffering from poor optimization like Metal Gear Solid Delta.

I know my view point is unpopular however I think I would be inclined to listen to the individual who built the tools for the engine you are using.

 

[Kataploom]

Maybe, but the engine does have real issues that no other engine has so far and that are prevalent in those games used as examples of good performance.

The problem starts when they try to make the tools too generalist with pretty large scalability, for every GPUs, etc. Lumen is an example, instead of going full RT like IdTech 8 or Snowdrop and drop old hardware support, they try to make it work on anything and the result is that IdTech and Snowdrop are much more performant by focusing the resources.

There's no game performing like Doom TDA, for example, and if Id Software decided to not focus on modern hardware only I think they would have performance issues, not to mention the smooth experience on PC, etc.

 

[Fbh]

There's probably some truth to it with many devs targeting higher specs first and no longer taking the time to optimize. But there are too many UE5 games with issues for me to buy that it's exclusively a dev problem.

As a side note I have also soured on upscaling tech over the years. It's great on paper but it feels like it has just became a cheap bandait "solution" for poor optimization, every other console release is now "let's just render at 720p, slap FSR on it and call it 1440p"

 

[Lux77]

There is something wrong with me… I sat there thinking what does Sydney have to do with unreal…

I'm ok with this.

You are not alone

 

[yurinka]

Is it me, or are people attacking him just because, as he seems to point out that developers start optimising too late into the development-cycle, which doesn't sound unreasonable?

Not saying he's right per se, but the logic is sound.

He is right.

Devs normally develop in top tier PCs targeting a good enough performance in the platform where they sell the most (in most cases PS5) not caring much at the optimal performance in lowest end devices where they'll also run the game until when often it's too late.

Many generations ago the idea was the opposite: starting building the game ensuring optimal performance in the lowest end devices and later add on top extra stuff for more powerful hardware.

Both approaches would be equally valid as long as devs would have enough time to optimize the game for all the supported devices. But devs have limited time, and often spend most of their time on the game itself not giving them enough time for the optimization part, so having the current approach the low end devices are the ones that suffer the most because are the ones that need more optimization work.

 

[Laptop1991]

Well he makes it sound easy to do, just do it in the right order, so either he is telling the truth and the devs dont care or are incompetent or he isn't telling the truth lol, lets see if it gets fixed!.

 

[nkarafo]

Why can't it be both?

The engine is at fault because of the way it helps less skilled devs and that makes it easier for the crappier or lazier devs, who are also at fault, to churn out games that are almost acceptable or at least they look that way.

 

[viveks86]

If needed, our engineers can step in.

Pick up your phones and start dialing, devs!

 

[tkscz]

"The main cause is the order of development," he said. "Many studios build for top-tier hardware first and leave optimisation and low-spec testing for the end. Ideally, optimisation should begin early - before full content build-out. We're doing two things: strengthening engine support with more automated optimisation across devices, and expanding developer education so 'optimise early' becomes standard practice. If needed, our engineers can step in.

See the problem is it's not just low-spec hardware with this issue. Mid and high end hardware are also facing the same issues where even running the game at high settings will have frame pacing issues. If they are teaching developers to optimize, they are doing a piss poor job of it. And even if they did, would that solve the frame pacing issues? Serious question there, I don't know if it would or not.

 

[StereoVsn]

The engine came in hot this gen and the early versions of UE5 were almost like an alpha version, bad performances all around, otherwise they wouldn't make 4 hours specials for a 5.5 or 5.6 engine performance improvements. Those improvements are a little late, the gen flew by. They also require high end hardware to even look good. Its so funny to see MGS 3 remake running on a Steam deck which is roughly PS4 power and it looks worse than MGS 5 did.

It just doesn't run like it looks.

But the biggest culprit is the ecosystem. UE5 is also an ecosystem. UE5 being the most documented graphic engine out there with the most tutorials with the most peoples having knowledge of because it's free, is an ecosystem that Epic have sold to publishers that they don't need the expensive graphic engineer nerds in the studio anymore. They don't need the seniority levels they had, they can just offload to cheap labour countries to save a buck. Of course the accountants in publishing houses LOVED that. So optimization left the building.

Surprise pikachu everything runs like shit.

Bingo-Bongo! The engine certainly has a ton of issues, but publishers are using cheapest contract labor they can find (hey Virtuous), don't allot time to optimization and then gamers as a surprise get shit performance for $70.

 

[StereoVsn]

This isn't true, though. Some games run great (Avowed, Robocop: Rogue City, Fortnite, The Finals, Hellblade II, etc.. etc..), some don't (MGS Delta, Silent Hill 2, etc..).

That variation alone tells us that it's not just an issue with the engine. I'm sure there's some quirks to overcome, but in the end it's an issue with optimization (devs) and the fact that the hardware it's being pushed onto (PS5/XSX) is underpowered.

Other than Fortnite, which UE5 game runs well in an Open World?

 

[analog_future]

Other than Fortnite, which UE5 game runs well in an Open World?

Avowed, just like I said in my list.

 

[kruis]

The engine came in hot this gen and the early versions of UE5 were almost like an alpha version, bad performances all around, otherwise they wouldn't make 4 hours specials for a 5.5 or 5.6 engine performance improvements. Those improvements are a little late, the gen flew by. They also require high end hardware to even look good. Its so funny to see MGS 3 remake running on a Steam deck which is roughly PS4 power and it looks worse than MGS 5 did.

That's how Epic always works. Overpromise and underdeliver. Look at the documents from the lawsuit Silicon Knights vs Epic. Silicon Knights bought into Epic's claims about the power of UE, but they were sold a beta version of an engine that was still worked on by Epic. Performance and documentation was poor and support was lacking because the Epic guys were working on UE and Gears of War at the same time. UE3 was more or less unusable until Epic finished Gears of War.

Silicon Knight had a good case IMO, but they made the mistake of building their own engine not from scratch but using their old code thwas built on top of US3. There was so much UE code in their "new" engine that Epic was able to counter sue Silicon Knights and take them to the cleaner.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

he is right. Devs don't know/care how to use the tools properly.

 

[bbeach123]

Avowed, just like I said in my list.

Its look like a ps4 game so ...

 

[Dr.D00p]

Unreal Engine 5 is designed for hardware that will have enough power to brute force its way past its very considerable shortcomings.

...it'll work really well on PS7 & 6090.

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

in case of UE5 , stuttering occurs on both high end and low end hardware.

But he's not saying high end hardware fixes stuttering. It's absout optimization, and that can, dependent on the context, also affect strong hardware.

 

[analog_future]

Its look like a ps4 game so ...

This looks like a PS4 game?

 

[NeverYouMind]

I like Unreal Engine 5 and how amazing it makes games look/run on mid range hardware. High-end Nvidia suckers and console plebs can cry me a river.

 

[roosnam1980]

But he's not saying high end hardware fixes stuttering. It's absout optimization, and that can, dependent on the context, also affect strong hardware.

from the article..................

"Essentially, developers are too focused on high-end gaming PCs and consoles, meaning those on the lower end are suffering"

 

[Soren01]

There's some truth to what he's saying

 

[Fake]

Optimization left the room.

 

[omegasc]

I bet it's a bit of both dev and tool.

 

[The Cockatrice]

This looks like a PS4 game?

While he is exaggerating ofc, it doesnt look a generation better than a PS4 game. Let me remind you what some games looked on PS4

blablabla raytracing, blablabla, who cares when baked lighting was crafted masterfully.

 

[Karim]

"I'm not blaming the developers, I'm blaming the development"

But he is not wrong at all eh.

 

[Karim]

While he is exaggerating ofc, it doesnt look a generation better than a PS4 game. Let me remind you what some games looked on PS4

blablabla raytracing, blablabla, who cares when baked lighting was crafted masterfully.

The point of UE5 is give to access to such graphic fidelity to the developers who haven't the resources or the talent to achieve something like that with their limited budget. But too many developers think the engine can do it almost automatically (look at Virtuos Studio). Of course no one intended to say UE5 hasn't important flaws.

 

[The Cockatrice]

The point of UE5 is give to access to such graphic fidelity to the developers who haven't the resources or the talent to achieve something like that with their budget.

That is true, however, in that process, they also gave inexperienced developers tools to make extremely demanding games for no visual benefits, which is why we're here. I've played an indie game made in UE5, and it looked like a 2010 game with empty rooms and whatnot, and it ran absolutely shit. I don't think I've ever played a single UE5 game without framegen. Every single developer is basing their optimization on dlss and framegen, they are not even looking at how bad the game runs without them. Framegen should be a tool to achieve 200+ fps, not barely 100. Its why this engine struggles on consoles, and most UE5 are at 720p or worse to achieve 60FPS. We're going backwards and for what? Better light bounces and realistic shadows that could easily be faked? I want better animations, amazing world details, fantasy-like worlds, and realistic AI that adapts to my skills, not shadows under rocks and the same fucking generic forest that I'll never notice when actually playing the game. DF and similar channels have brainwashed people.

 

[A.Romero]

Let's consult with Sydney, and see what she has to say.

Sooo? What did she say?



Back on topic: There are a few UE5 games that perform well like The Finals or Expedition 33.

So yes, I do think there is a development factor but it still falls onto the engine asi it seems like it needs an exceptional team to really make it shine.

 

[Gp1]

Sell your engine like the holly grail of automatic optimization.

Complain that the devs are not manually optimizing their games.

 

[Mister Wolf]

I'm glad Tim cleared this up for us.

 

[kiphalfton]

I agree with Tim that the developers are shit, but it's also true that the engine itself has a lot of problems.

Yeah, it's both. People are just giving devs too much credit.

Should be interesting to see how CPR handles Witcher 4. If it runs well, people can no longer blame Tim.

 

[UniformDeliverance]

He's not wrong. This is an issue that goes beyond UE5. Optimization does not happen until toward the end of development. Ever noticed how console games start to look and run worse further into a generation? It's not like that hardware is getting worse with time.. The developers simply aren't considering the hardware the game will actually run on. They put everything into systems, graphics, complex design.. Then have to rapidly cut deep into fat to get the game optimized at the end.

We have seen developers make amazing Unreal 5 games. Expedition 33 runs like a dream, it's Unreal 5.

The problem here is that Unreal 5 has a high ceiling, and ambitious developers shoot to reach that ceiling... forgetting that their games need to scale on low performance machines.

 

[SHAKEZ]

It's the most used engine everywhere and yet it has the most problems.
With the amount of knowledge people have with it you'd think it'd be the easiest one to work with. It's time for in-house built engines again, they might take time and money to create, but they're worth it.

 

[kpopSuperstar]

Avowed, just like I said in my list.

Ironically, their new update has caused a lot of stuttering and freezing issues for a lot of players.

 

[ReBurn]

It's a poor workman who blames his tools.

He's not entirely wrong. We like to blame the engine for limiting what creators can achieve, but the creator needs to build within the limitations of the tools they choose to do the job. If your creative vision isn't possible to achieve with the technology you chose to manifest it the problem is the choice the creator made, not the technology itself. Too often developers sacrifice performance on the altar of creative scope and somehow we're all too eager to blame the console or the engine. It's baffling to me.

 

[mayham2199]

He's to busy trying to take on Steam, Apple, and google to care about this.

 

[Clear]

Hey, he's not forcing anyone but his own employees to choose UE5.

So basically, you can't blame Epic for shit all.

Also, blaming an engine for what third-parties create with it makes no sense whatsoever. Its not magically guaranteed to produce perfect results every time!

Its so stupid, especially when so often its coming from an evident position of personal dislike for Sweeney, and has no grounding in even the most basic technical insight.

 

[kruis]

from the article..................

"Essentially, developers are too focused on high-end gaming PCs and consoles, meaning those on the lower end are suffering"

You can make the point that Epic has always been to focused on adding shiny graphics meaning that the performance is suffering.

I think gamers would have preferred an alternate reality in which Epic had wrung every bit of performance out of UE5, removed bottlenecks like putting all the game logic on one core right from the start and started adding features like Lumen and Nanite only now.

 

[mckmas8808]

Bullshit. Even on top end hardware that they're supposedly targeting these games have serious issues.

BOOM! First post too. What now Sweeny?

 

[winjer]

UE5 runs like crap on so many games to be just the developers fault.
Its clear that UE5 has serious performance issues. Some have been addressed with newer versions, but there is still a lot to improve.
I would rather have Epic focus on improving performance, than adding mire graphical effects.

Tim, should shut up and fix his engine.

 

[Crayon]

Yah they should have learned a different engine.

 

[PlayStaytion]

It's also Jensen's fault, he must cut the AI BS out of RTX Gpus, we don't need that, these are gaming graphics cards. Also, Tim must realize by now that we don't need UE6 before making UE5 run the right way for the love of God. We are dealing with this BS since the PS3 days with UE3. Cut all the marketing BS for a new UE every time, it's become pointless at this case, just stop it.

 

[Kacho]

I look forward to the day I don't wince when I hear a game is using Unreal Engine.

 

[Malvira]

It seems like we keep hearing the same thing over and over since at least Unreal 3 which became a de facto standard. Developers complain about the engine then the next version will finally fix everything.

 

[Arsic]

What a cunt. Your engine sucks so much dick that your team has to babysit ever Dev team to assist them on performance.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

What I'm going to say isn't exactly outlandish and something anybody else couldn't figure out but I worry about the future of unreal titles if we have issues with optimization. Mainly CD projekt adopting the engine for what seems like future titles.

I have to give dice some credit since they managed to iterate on their engine and make it look better while doing more on the screen and probably processing some extra stuff in the background and somehow managing to get the game to run better than the previous iterations. It looks better than what was already presented in their last titles while running better.

Unreal is used by many developers and is one of the most popular middleware software out there. I want to say and give them credit because it doesn't look like plastic unreal engine 3 but they need to either optimize or just scale back a little bit because games can look great and not feel like you need generational hardware ahead of what we already have.

And I'm sorry, I know some of these games have good environments and stuff but unless it's something like crisis which is Head over heels above everything else then I would excuse it but a lot of these games have diminishing returns and visuals and look really good yet some run like crap while others somehow get more out of the hardware.