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[sonycowboy]

I hadn't heard that they would actually be able to store both versions on one disc. This would allow for an incredibly smooth transition from one platform to the next.

Tuesday December 7, 7:48 am ET
Japan's Toshiba, Memory-Tech Jointly Develop New Disc for Next-Generation DVD Players

TOKYO (AP) -- Japan's Toshiba Corp. and Memory-Tech Corp. said Tuesday they have developed the world's first DVD that can be played on both standard and high-definition DVD players, amid a heated global race to come up with the benchmark for new optical disks.

The discs rely on the HD-DVD format, one of two technologies competing to become the world standard for the next generation of high-definition DVDs, which are expected to offer sharper images, the companies, both based in Tokyo, said in joint statement.

HD-DVD has the backing of the DVD Forum, an international association of electronics makers and movie studios, and new DVD players using the format are expected to hit stores by late 2005.

Its competitor, Blu-Ray -- backed by Sony Corp., its Hollywood studio and News Corp.'s Fox Entertainment Group Inc. -- has more digital programming storage space. But HD-DVD is expected to be cheaper to make because it uses technology closely resembling that used in current DVDs.

It's still unclear which will become the dominant technology.

Tuesday's announcement raises hopes for a way to smooth the transition from the old DVD format to new disc technology, and as more people trade in their old TV sets for newer, higher resolution screens.

Toshiba and Memory-Tech said their disc has a dual-layered surface, which separately stores high-definition and lower resolution data on the same side.

For consumers, that would eliminate the potential headache of having to own two types of DVD players: Old and new DVD players will be able to read all types of HD-DVD discs, though only the newer equipment can take advantage of the higher resolution technology.

The discs, which took six months to develop, will have a memory capacity of 19.7 gigabytes, with 4.7 GB of regular DVD space and 15 GB of high-resolution space, Memory-Tech spokesman Masato Otsuka said.

It's the first market-ready model of a HD-DVD, Toshiba spokeswoman Junko Furuta said. The discs are expected to be ready in late 2005, when Toshiba plans to begin selling an HD-DVD player, recorder, and laptop computer with a built-in HD-DVD disc drive.

Making the discs won't cost any more than the companies now spend on producing current DVDs, Memory-Tech's Otsuka said.

At the Tokyo Stock Exchange on Tuesday, Toshiba's shares fell 1.12 percent to close at 441 yen (US $4.28; euro3.19). Memory-Tech, founded in 1985, is a privately held company.

 

[cybamerc]

That's pretty clever!

 

[Fafalada]

Not sure if I remember right, but didn't BluRay group announce the exact same thing with their discs around two months ago?
I wonder if any of these will actually get used though I doubt they cost exactly the same as the single format discs.

 

[cybamerc]

Fafalada:

> Not sure if I remember right, but didn't BluRay group announce the exact same thing
> with their discs around two months ago?

Single-sided?

 

[Nerevar]

Not sure if I remember right, but didn't BluRay group announce the exact same thing with their discs around two months ago?
I wonder if any of these will actually get used though I doubt they cost exactly the same as the single format discs.

Huh? How is a blu-ray disc going to work in a regular DVD player? They currently have them stored in caddies, ferchrissakes.

 

[DCharlie]

There is an interesting article on the next gen format war on Nikkei for subscribed people.

 

[Fafalada]

BD-Roms don't use caddies.

Anyway, my mistake - they announced a BD-CD combo disc, dunno if the DVD has been made yet.

Single-sided?

Apparently yes.
http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/bdcd-dual-format-disc-announced-bluray-beats-hd-dvd-023660.php

but to make a long story short, there's two variations: the first variation has both "Blu-Ray" and "CD" sides of the disc, and the second variation consists of having both "Blu-Ray" and "CD" recordable layers on the same side of the disc. The dual format discs are possible thanks to the essentially mirrored layer setup of Blu-Ray and CD.

 

[mrklaw]

they'd better mean DVD for bluray. Making DVD backward compability should have been high on the list of features. With a new format and a blank piece of paper, it shouldn't have been a problem. Take what DVD is, and work around it so that the two formats can co-exist.

 

[goodcow]

19GB is nothing.

 

[Jr.]

I wanna say it first, "Sell your PS3's, its all over!"

 

[FeedMeAStrayCat]

This is pretty cool news.. this, combined with that protective covering thing on DVDs announced a little while ago, will make for some awesome, crystal clear, unscratchable magic..

I'm not sure who to support, though.. Blu-Ray.. HD-DVD.. hmm.. Blu-Ray.. more memory.. HD-DVD.. easier/cheaper for companies to make.. hmm..

 

[kaching]

As with the earlier BD announcement like this, other than the "hey, neat" factor of it, I don't really see it helping to make the transition much smoother.

For consumers, that would eliminate the potential headache of having to own two types of DVD players: Old and new DVD players will be able to read all types of HD-DVD discs, though only the newer equipment can take advantage of the higher resolution technology.

Why would I need to own two DVD players when upgrading to an HD-DVD model is supposed to give backward compatability to CD and DVD? Or is this their roundabout way of announcing that they're not including BC in HD-DVD players?

Assuming for a second that the author is just misinformed, the value of this is probably of greatest benefit to people who own multiple DVD players in the form of laptops, portable players, etc. but only upgrade their "main" DVD player to HD-DVD initially. Unless all content providers produced all HD-DVD discs this way, it really wouldn't help many more people make the early adoption decision.

 

[sonycowboy]

Why would I need to own two DVD players when upgrading to an HD-DVD model is supposed to give backward compatability to CD and DVD? Or is this their roundabout way of announcing that they're not including BC in HD-DVD players?

Assuming for a second that the author is just misinformed, the value of this is probably of greatest benefit to people who own multiple DVD players in the form of laptops, portable players, etc. but only upgrade their "main" DVD player to HD-DVD initially. Unless all content providers produced all HD-DVD discs this way, it really wouldn't help many more people make the early adoption decision.

The value is pretty obvious. I can buy hybrid DVD's "today" (when that day comes) for my current crappy DVD and crappy TV. Then when I actually have the money to buy the new HD player and TV, I've don't have to go buy another copy.

The only question is if studios actually go along with this. They've made numerous comments that this doesn't address:

1) HD quality and extras will cost more and they want a premium for that content. However, the current DVD consumer is going to see the "standard" DVD for $15 and the premium one for $25-$30 and they'll go with the standard.

2) It still doesn't solve their need for piracy control. If the DVD itself is backwards compatible, then pirates will be able to rip the movie the same as they always have.

 

[Fafalada]

The value is pretty obvious. I can buy hybrid DVD's "today" (when that day comes) for my current crappy DVD and crappy TV. Then when I actually have the money to buy the new HD player and TV, I've don't have to go buy another copy.

HD content on these discs will not come for free, and regular consumers with crappy DVD and crappy TV will buy the cheaper non HDTV DVDs instead of this.
Not to mention that by the time you buy your HD player and TV that same movie will probably have gone through 99 new releases with more extras or whatever, so you may still want ot buy a new version not only for the HD content.

Like Kaching said, it still sounds more like a clever novelty, then something with real value, but who knows, maybe market will prove us wrong.

 

[Marty Chinn]

HD content on these discs will not come for free, and regular consumers with crappy DVD and crappy TV will buy the cheaper non HDTV DVDs instead of this.
Not to mention that by the time you buy your HD player and TV that same movie will probably have gone through 99 new releases with more extras or whatever, so you may still want ot buy a new version not only for the HD content.

Like Kaching said, it still sounds more like a clever novelty, then something with real value, but who knows, maybe market will prove us wrong.

I don't see why it wouldn't be pretty much free. How much more does it cost to press a HDTV DVD? My impression was that the point of the technology was that minor revisions would have to be done at the plants in order to press discs. In this day and age, studios are mastering their movies in HD and then down converting it to DVD anyway. So in this case, all they do is slap both versions on. It really wouldn't take much more time or cost to do so. Heck you can look at T2 which has both the WMV9 version and the DVD movie all packaged together and can be had for $10. I agree that sure they may have newer versions by the time you upgrade, but I don't think there will be any cost issue .

 

[sonycowboy]

I don't see why it wouldn't be pretty much free. How much more does it cost to press a HDTV DVD? My impression was that the point of the technology was that minor revisions would have to be done at the plants in order to press discs. In this day and age, studios are mastering their movies in HD and then down converting it to DVD anyway. So in this case, all they do is slap both versions on. It really wouldn't take much more time or cost to do so. Heck you can look at T2 which has both the WMV9 version and the DVD movie all packaged together and can be had for $10. I agree that sure they may have newer versions by the time you upgrade, but I don't think there will be any cost issue .

The cost is the additional content and the premium quality, not the physical medium

 

[NotMSRP]

Cartoons and anime won't really benefit from the high-res HD stuff?

 

[kaching]

I don't see studios moving to full-scale production of HD-DVDs without tacking on at least a small price hike. Regardless of whether mastering and manufacturing costs are negligibly higher than the same for DVD, they will see that they are offering a higher value product to the market and will want to price "accordingly". Which leads into the scenario that Faf depicted.

And talking about variants and extras, is the single 4.7 gig DVD layer of this hybrid enough to house all the same extras that might be contained on the HD-DVD layer or, for that matter the standalone DVD release of the same movie? It sounds to me like these hybrid discs don't really have the potential to truly offer "best of both worlds" and still leaves these consumer in a position of compromise during the transition period.

 

[Marty Chinn]

The cost is the additional content and the premium quality, not the physical medium

But like I said already, they are mastering stuff at HD quality to begin with and then mastering DVDs from that source. There is no additional cost for the premium quality since they're already doing it already. You just include it along with your DVD version too.

 

[mrklaw]

Hey Marty, do us a favour and buy out one of the big studios

It might well cost next to nothing to do this (although the dual layer thing will cost extra) - but why would studios even bother with HD movies if they sell for the same price as DVD? They will want to gouge the early adopter videophiles for a while at least.

And if they price HD the same as DVD, then DVD prices go down. Not sure they want to kill the golden goose just yet.

Simply put, if they can charge more, they will charge more.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Cartoons and anime won't really benefit from the high-res HD stuff?

I'd think it would vary as much as any other content. Is the source material at a higher resolution? Is there enough detail that it will make a notable visual difference?

Going on a tanget from this... I've wondered if the makers of Adult Swim's short shows have taken this into account. I mean, shows like Sealab and Aqua Teen are cheaply done on computers, so changing the resolution of the shows would be simple, even if it would be using the same old assets. Do they still have all the original frame data saved in such a way that when they're rereleasing a special edition in 2030 they could fairly easily go back to their PCs and choose "Export at 24000x18000"?

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

Island Fever 3 was released with an HD-DVD at no extra charge

 

[DCharlie]

which of these two techs allows companies to maximize profits?

What are the licensing costs?
What are the conversion costs for pressing plants?
Cost per media?
Cost per pressing?
Suggested cost of players?

Do we have any ideas yet?

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

which of these two techs allows companies to maximize profits?

What are the licensing costs?
What are the conversion costs for pressing plants?
Cost per media?
Cost per pressing?
Suggested cost of players?

Do we have any ideas yet?

I don't have any solid numbers, but the main (only?) thing HD-DVD has going for it is that being more similar to the current standard, very little need be done at the pressing plants. Whereas Blu-Ray would require another expensive machinery shift.

 

[Naked Snake]

19GB is nothing.

I agree, weaksauce!

 

[sonycowboy]

19GB is nothing.

It's actually 19.7

I'm assuming one layer is DVD @ 4.7GB and the other layer is HD-DVD at 15GB.

Whereas Sony will be having 25GB single layer and 50GB dual layer, and they're designing discs that will be able to have 4 layers, correct? That would be a total of 100GB and should be backwards compatible from what I've heard.

 

[mrklaw]

I don't have any solid numbers, but the main (only?) thing HD-DVD has going for it is that being more similar to the current standard, very little need be done at the pressing plants. Whereas Blu-Ray would require another expensive machinery shift.

Not a big deal really. Sony was the driving force behind initial DVD pressing, so could easily address costs of new pressing lines for Blu-Ray.

Using existing lines sounds nice, but when you consider most are running at full production capacity to deal with normal DVDs, you'd have to set up new factories for HD-DVD anyway, so the actual cost differentials are likely to be minimal IMO.

 

[Cooper]

Cartoons and anime won't really benefit from the high-res HD stuff?

Aside from higher resolution, HD signals have much better color than NTSC ones. This would certainly benefit cartoons. Shortly after The Lion King DVD came out, ABC showed The Lion King in HD on their digital channel. I compared the DVD to the HD showing, and the colors were much richer on ABC. The DVD looked a bit muddy in comparison.