-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Town That Helped Power Northwest Feels Left Behind In Shift Away From Coal
- Thread starter ShadowSwordmaster
- Start date
Saucycarpdog
Member
Yeah, this narrative that coal miners can just be retrained doesn't work when those miners don't want to the so any other job and fight any attempt to do so.See, the logical thing to do would be to pay for retraining. Those that can't be retrained due to age or whatever, we simply just pay them a pension for the rest of their life as a "we've moved on, we're not leaving you behind".
A bit of money to spend over the next few decades is worth it for the thousands upon thousands of years it will save the Earth, but people can't seem to register that.
Instead, you have coal workers and companies that just want to mine coal forever and have a government prop up coal through falsehoods and subsidy, but also won't take a "buyout" because "dur hur that's living on government"
You will not see ex-coal miners in food and kindred/retail/office-oriented industries. Just like previous manufacturing worker, coal mines are incredibly close-minded and arrogant about doing any other job than what they know how to do. They will refuse any attempt at retraining for a job in a different industry and never want to step out of their comfort zone(but liberals are the snowflakes!). It's unfortunate but if they are going to slap any attempt at helping them out away then we have no choice but move on and leave them behind.
BlazinSkatinAxel
Member
Will ex coal miners buy on to Air coal?
These people are the absolute definition of entitled snowflakes.
" bu bu bu everyone is saying mean things about coal! It's more expensive, dirty, and inefficient to today's technologies bu bu bu the mean words! Coal is life! "
They dined on capitalism during the good times, and now are about to experience what happens when you get left behind because you're old and busted. Removing every regulation on the book won't help you.
Obama had a great initiative to help them out and they threw it away in their shortsighted tantrum. The next generation born to that town is fucked given that place's current trajectory of burning the house down.
" bu bu bu everyone is saying mean things about coal! It's more expensive, dirty, and inefficient to today's technologies bu bu bu the mean words! Coal is life! "
They dined on capitalism during the good times, and now are about to experience what happens when you get left behind because you're old and busted. Removing every regulation on the book won't help you.
Obama had a great initiative to help them out and they threw it away in their shortsighted tantrum. The next generation born to that town is fucked given that place's current trajectory of burning the house down.
Vicetrailia
Banned
Plus when they do get extra money the companies don't give them any extra scraps. When its proposed lobbyists and Republicans don't support it. But they still vote for the people who make that happen. They still want small government trickle down bootstraps don't give them minorities anything direction.
klownboots
Member
Wind maybe but Montana would be a terrible place for a solar farm.
Montana actually gets as many solar powering days as Florida.
So you all are against "welfare" going to people you don't like. Kind of sounds familiar.
I favor a basic income for these people. Just not an income for them mining coal.
BrutishMrFish
Member
So you all are against "welfare" going to people you don't like. Kind of sounds familiar.
Bad comparison. Welfare is for poor people who need it, and these people are well-off. Also, taxpayers pay into welfare, whereas these people don't pay into Microsoft or any of the companies they think owe them. Welfare recipients aren't trying to screw everyone else out of alternatives to welfare, either.
Nice try, though.
I do not care at all.
These people consistently vote against their own self interest because they feed into the bullshit that's constantly spewed at them from folks that just want to control those votes. I have less and less sympathy as the days go on.
Not to mention it's goddamn coal, we SHOULD move away from it as much as possible.
These people consistently vote against their own self interest because they feed into the bullshit that's constantly spewed at them from folks that just want to control those votes. I have less and less sympathy as the days go on.
Not to mention it's goddamn coal, we SHOULD move away from it as much as possible.
So you all are against "welfare" going to people you don't like. Kind of sounds familiar.
I voted for a plan that would have provided government assistance for these communities as they transition away from coal.
Can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
PandaPandaPanda
Member
Seattle is almost 90% hydro, less than 1% coal.
http://www.seattle.gov/light/FuelMix/
We don't owe them shit.
even if it wasn't, it's not like without this little coal town we'd be completely powerless even if it'd be more expensive
sucks about the 10.1% sales tax but oh well
gutter_trash
Banned
Why not turn that coal town into a wind and solar town?
Solar Panels and Wind Turbines don't need continuous mining.
plant a Wind Turbine, hook it up, go home
So you all are against "welfare" going to people you don't like. Kind of sounds familiar.
I feel like this misses the point. Read the article--there's a strong undercurrent of resentment that coal itself is being rejected. It's not just that coal is going and they're panicking over the loss of livelihood, it's that people in the town genuinely resent being told their past way of life is on the way out. They don't want to transition to something non-coal, so much as they want Washington to pay them a penalty for not wanting coal anymore. That's not a sustainable path forward, because we're not going to ever go back to coal and whatever penalty fees they extract will eventually end.
It's not that I don't want to see them assisted so much as the article is asking for sympathy for people who still actively support the policies that mean they're not getting any closer to a long-term fix.
The transition is a problem for these people, but the answer is not raging about being forced to move away from coal. The answer is not turning to Trump because he runs around saying "clean coal" and telling you what you want to hear.
I'm not opposed to people in this town receiving assistance for a transition, but I am not interested in pretending they're entitled to continue living as they have in a coal-based economy. I'm fine helping them, but I'm not going to feel bad for them in the process if they choose to keep doubling down on their own doom.
Unemployment is absolutely a form of welfare. You don't have to be poor to get unemployment.Bad comparison. Welfare is for poor people who need it, and these people are well-off. Also, taxpayers pay into welfare, whereas these people don't pay into Microsoft or any of the companies they think owe them. Welfare recipients aren't trying to screw everyone else out of alternatives to welfare, either.
Nice try, though.
That's fair.I voted for a plan that would have provided government assistance for these communities as they transition away from coal.
Can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Imperfected
Member
So you all are against "welfare" going to people you don't like. Kind of sounds familiar.
They deserve unemployment and medical benefits to help cover their bills when their local economy falls out from under them due to being based entirely on a natural resource in declining demand.
They deserve a fair chance at a college education and (to whatever extent it provides such) self-determination toward a career rather than being shackled to their local job market.
Because they're morons, not only will they get none of these things, but no one else will, either. They still deserve them, but they deserve no pity for lacking them at this point.
I wonder where these coal people were when Detroit fell and the auto factory jobs started disappearing? It's why libertarian ideals would never work because everyone would only give a shit about themselves and nothing would get done. If these people were paying actual attention to candidates platforms they would have seen Hillary had an actual viable plan for retraining them for jobs in growing fields with free tuition and if they were still too stubborn they could have worked on her government sponsored infrastructure rebuilding plan. But no no, lets not think about things, be stubborn and buy into the snake oil salesman;s empty promises, that will work out much better for you. I even watched a segment on the news where some miners in a coal mine town decided to not be stubborn and retrained into coding jobs, I can't find the video segment but I believe this article here is about that same group. And they are working to get more of the miners in their area retrained.
apparently manufacturing solar cells is a loser game since China has cornered the market. Selling is good biz, making, not as much.
Weird that. Country that actively spends in R&D and massive installations reaps the benefits of economies of scale.
Weird that. Country that actively spends in R&D and massive installations reaps the benefits of economies of scale.
truly amazing.
Well, also helps that China effectively has cornered the market for the rare earth metals needed for solar panels.Weird that. Country that actively spends in R&D and massive installations reaps the benefits of economies of scale.
This. Not my fault these towns drag their feet on everything.I do not care at all.
These people consistently vote against their own self interest because they feed into the bullshit that's constantly spewed at them from folks that just want to control those votes. I have less and less sympathy as the days go on.
Not to mention it's goddamn coal, we SHOULD move away from it as much as possible.
BrutishMrFish
Member
Unemployment is absolutely a form of welfare. You don't have to be poor to get unemployment.
But they're still employed, and keeping things that way by forcing everyone to stick with coal while slowing the growth of alternatives isn't welfare. These people rejected multiple options to alleviate the problems caused by the shift away from coal. It would have been great if they didn't, but here we are.
There's a big difference between the reactions to this and what the pundits on Fox News say about welfare recipients, no matter how badly you want to spin this into some both sides crap.
Rogers is referring to Obama's Power+ Plan, which aimed to give resources to "assist communities and workers that have been affected by job losses in coal mining, coal power plant operations, and coal-related supply chain industries due to the changing economics of America's energy sector."
It was the Obama administration's way of saying: We know the market is changing; here's our plan to help cushion the fall.
Now, Rogers says, the cushion is gone and there's nothing being proffered by the new administration to replace it.
No RagretsRogers' opinion of the Clean Power Plan is not widely shared in Colstrip. Most people in the town are happy to see it, and other Obama-era regulations on the coal industry, gone or on their way out.
"With Trump in there doing some of the things that he's doing to eliminate some of those needless regulations, I think it's going to make a positive impact here," says Colstrip Mayor John Williams.
If nothing else, he says, it's nice to have a president who supports coal.
The Jazz Cabbage Master
Member
Why not offer education programs to help bring these people to the future?
Mr_Antimatter
Member
The liberals offered them a way to transition to different industries. They chose Trump's bag of rock candy BS instead.
Let them lay in it.
Let them lay in it.
Why not offer education programs to help bring these people to the future?
They aren't interested in the future. They want to live in the past.
Why not offer education programs to help bring these people to the future?
The future is for socialist libtards, don't you watch Fox News/listen to conservative radio? We're trying to make America great again, not make America great someday.
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
Why not offer education programs to help bring these people to the future?
.The liberals offered them a way to transition to different industries. They chose Trump's bag of rock candy BS instead.
Let them lay in it.
Weird that. Country that actively spends in R&D and massive installations reaps the benefits of economies of scale.
stop being unAmerican.
Vicetrailia
Banned
Why not offer education programs to help bring these people to the future?
They're largely not interested, but Republicans exist too. Same thing going on with offshoring. People took their chances with other mfg jobs, and a few used the education programs to go back to school (Republicans started reducing funding for these DOL programs in 2006). Except these coal folk have less options than manufacturing.
Tbh the programs are strict and aren't for everyone though.
wow devilhawk you really hit the nail on the head thereSo you all are against "welfare" going to people you don't like. Kind of sounds familiar.
deciding to not do business with someone is totally the same as withholding welfare from someone who needs it
Why not offer education programs to help bring these people to the future?
Because they wouldn't vote for them, and even if they did those programs aren't exactly a panacea. Economic transitions of this kind are tremendously difficult.
Where me mammoths gone? Me starve.Why aren't you renting my vhs tapes any more.
Just to be clear. Obama did. Funds were going to be used strictly for this.Why not offer education programs to help bring these people to the future?
Why not offer education programs to help bring these people to the future?
Hilary ran a platform on this continuing measures Obama began.
Of course Trump blusterously made promises about ignoring reality to make "clean coal" somehow viable again and like the mindless sheep they are, they essentially voted for their own doom.
They should be getting pissed at their local leaders for doubling down, no one else.
Elon Musk is going to need labor for new battery factories. They've done nothing to prepare and try to get those jobs.
Their leaders are not doing their jobs, and trying to hang onto a nose diving industry isn't helping. Take the sour medicine and move forward.
Elon Musk is going to need labor for new battery factories. They've done nothing to prepare and try to get those jobs.
Their leaders are not doing their jobs, and trying to hang onto a nose diving industry isn't helping. Take the sour medicine and move forward.
Very true. I really suggest people read these training program bills. People here act like every coal employee is guaranteed two years training and placement into a relevant new job in the same town. It's just not the case.Because they wouldn't vote for them, and even if they did those programs aren't exactly a panacea. Economic transitions of this kind are tremendously difficult.
Why not turn that coal town into a wind and solar town?
When the Democrats take interest in plans that a place higher import on welfare than profits, please let me know.
Oh, I feel so sorry for them.
Nah, I don't. Learn to adapt or get forgotten in time.
This is a chauvinistic attitude coming from a place of privilege. When any community is suffering, you lend them help rather than let them fester and die. The "adapt or die" mentality you propose is straight out of social Darwinist tracts from the 1870s. Any Democrats who agree with this sentiment are no friends of mine.
Very true. I really suggest people read these training program bills. People here act like every coal employee is guaranteed two years training and placement into a relevant new job in the same town. It's just not the case.
I don't think anyone is under the illusion that it will be a smooth transition. It's better than the nothingburger they're going to be getting now, though.
When the Democrats take interest in plans that a place higher import on welfare than profits, please let me know.
This is a chauvinistic attitude coming from a place of privilege. When any community is suffering, you lend them help rather than let them fester and die. The "adapt or die" mentality you propose is straight out of social Darwinist tracts from the 1870s. Any Democrats who agree with this sentiment are no friends of mine.
Though I agree, the damage is done and it will take a competent administration to help these people. They are going to be suffering for a while which sucks.
Similar attitude lead to Brexit after Thatcher destroyed industry in the northern part of England and Wales.
When the Democrats take interest in plans that a place higher import on welfare than profits, please let me know.
LOL - wut? I mean, at least put some effort into being a contrarian. This doesn't even make sense.
Hillary Clinton ran on a very detailed plan for re-purposing these old industry towns and retraining their workers to lead the world in clean energy production. That had everything to do with not wanting to leave these old coal towns behind. Even a cursory knowledge of what Hillary actually ran on, and not sipping the Bernie kool aid, would tell you this.
But you know what happened? Republicans actually ran on her plans as being proof that "Democrats want to sink America's great coal industry! Coal would be BOOMING if it weren't for those damn liberal coastal elites!"
When the Democrats take interest in plans that a place higher import on welfare than profits, please let me know.
This is a chauvinistic attitude coming from a place of privilege. When any community is suffering, you lend them help rather than let them fester and die. The "adapt or die" mentality you propose is straight out of social Darwinist tracts from the 1870s. Any Democrats who agree with this sentiment are no friends of mine.
I guess the Obama era subsidies that were given to the town dont count? And how they have basically rejected them and doubled-down on Trump's coal support?
But that requires you actually reading the article before soapboxing.