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Toyota Working On Solid-State Battery For Long Range Electric Cars
- Thread starter Kickz
- Start date
Ah yes, the world shaping market that is Canada. Engine heaters are needed to start cars in -30C anyways, not like that stopped cars from being sold there.
milanbaros
Member?
Tesla has 5 more years of development before then. Not saying that wouldn't be revolutionary but Tesla has the advantage that it already is in mass production with its cars.
You can make them with sodium which can be had from seawater. Unless I misread one of the articles linked in here.
kaname-san
Member
Sounds like what we've been waiting for in terms of range and charge time.
Just don't screw it up by putting the speedo in the middle of the dash.
Just don't screw it up by putting the speedo in the middle of the dash.
jellies_two
Member
The other amazing thing is these solid state batteries work normally down to -20 c and freaking SALT can be used as an electrolyte not rare lithium.
Even if it didn't provide any added benefit that would be amazing if they were made with a commonly found substance.
It would be a great counter to the non stop negative news. What a surprise that 'fake' science does something to improve the world.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
In this article (https://news.utexas.edu/2017/02/28/goodenough-introduces-new-battery-technology) it says that particular technology works better in cold climates. So if they're using the same thing then you'll better off in -30C weather.Ugh, but it gets to -30C in my city
On a more serious note though, this type of tech would be amazing for grid-level storage and other industrial applications that need high power densities.
That same article says that it only works to -20C
Anyhow, the reason why there's a temperature range for solid state batteries is because of carrier mobility. That's why most of them run hot instead of -20C to 60C.
jellies_two
Member
The temp thing isn't a big deal tesla manages ok in Canada and Norway this new much lower range just makes it easier to be efficient.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
You're setting hard limits to that already but this is first generation stuff we're talking about. It also says it can operate at -20C, not that it shuts down after that.That same article says that it only works to -20C
Anyhow, the reason why there's a temperature range for solid state batteries is because of carrier mobility. That's why most of them run hot instead of -20C to 60C.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
Ultimately, even if Tesla is a stop gap, it's better for the world. There is room for both, especially if Toyota is not competing in the luxury space. Tesla has proven they can compete there. And Lexus has a ways to go to get that cool factor.
Competition is what we want. It'll force Tesla to compete and innovate.
Toyota started their own accelerated R&D in batteries in 2010:
https://www.toyota-europe.com/world...echnology/next-generation-secondary-batteries
More reports come every few years:
https://www.toyota-europe.com/world...echnology/next-generation-secondary-batteries
They are working with 4 major universities in Japan plus NIMS which is one of the largest research centers in Japan.
In 2011 they published paper in UK mag on new solid state battery. In 2012 they had small working samples.
You can find examples that they started as early as 2008:
http://www.ilika.com/about-ilika/materials-innovation/solid-state-batteries
Generally Toyota does not publish PR pieces and false news... but they did not post anything about 2022 date. It might be telling that Toyoda is now personally spearheading the EV projects.
ZeezbruhTV
Member
lol lets calm down guys. 5 years away MINIMUM if things go well.
G-Bus
Banned
Isn't it a bit ignorant to assume Tesla isn't working on solid state themselves?
Either way I like where the industry is heading and the more competition the better.
If only they could do away with car dealerships. Let me buy directly.
Probably another 5 years until I own an electric vehicle. Not enough options yet and the model 3 feels a bit above me even in it's "affordable" price range.
Either way I like where the industry is heading and the more competition the better.
If only they could do away with car dealerships. Let me buy directly.
Probably another 5 years until I own an electric vehicle. Not enough options yet and the model 3 feels a bit above me even in it's "affordable" price range.
Jorok Goldblade
Member
They also don't burst into flames, which is also a huge improvement.
Perhaps they are nearing perfecting the technology, hence the 2022 date given
That is great. Hopefully they can get this stuff to work efficiently then as for me that is the biggest challenge to more sustainable solutions to energy is we get technological increases but there are large demands on scarce resources.
I will be following this closely over the next few years.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
If Toyota can backup their claim, I'm in.
BlastProcessing
Member
Nothing good, i reckon. The Gigafactory was basically a bet that battery tech wouldn't fundamentally change in the next decade.
Theoretically, this technology greatly reduces the chances of fire/explosion. Being a solid, it is vastly more stable than the liquid we are using now, and is virtually leak-proof as an added benefit.
Tesla does not do R&D on battery, likes of Panasonic and LG Chem do that... I am sure they are doing it to.
Since EVs dont matter for where i live, i wonder what will be application in other industries - significantly more dense small batteries will do wonders for electronics.
Good old Toyota.
That said, I drive a Prius for work and it's straight trash. It's the only hybrid/electric I've driven and I swear the thing has less balls than my brother's beater 3 cylinder Geo that he had back in the day. I certainly hope that improved performance/driver experience is a priority for these electrics across the board and not just battery longevity.
That said, I drive a Prius for work and it's straight trash. It's the only hybrid/electric I've driven and I swear the thing has less balls than my brother's beater 3 cylinder Geo that he had back in the day. I certainly hope that improved performance/driver experience is a priority for these electrics across the board and not just battery longevity.
BlazinSkatinAxel
Member
I guess it depends on cold vs warm boot.
Crazymoogle
Member
2022 is code for "we don't know if it's possible, but we are confident enough in the risk/reward ratio that we can put 5 years of R&D towards it".
This article tells me 3 things:
1. The risk/reward to push away from Lithium is extremely high right now (probably a lot of market pressure on buying/making the batteries)
2. Toyota possesses R&D that says a solution is inevitable
3. They are not certain at all if that solution is 3, 5, or 10 years away.
I wouldn't hold my breath - lots of materials that remain "5 years away" all the time, but it's clearly good news that Toyota is making a substantial R&D push. As usual the race is not "does it work?" but "can we make it cheaply enough to put in a car?"
BlastProcessing
Member
I dunno, 2022 is pretty aggressive in auto industry terms.
They still do research themselves. Here's an example.
https://electrek.co/2017/05/09/tesla-battery-lifetime-double/
Cow Mengde
Banned
We need one of these in The Switch.
Crazymoogle
Member
Yeah, but it's a goal, not a manufacturing agreement. It would be like Rockstar saying their goal is to ship GTA6 by 2020. Everybody starts aligning in that direction, money is spent, but ultimately research (like game development) has a lot of unknowns that kick in. 5 years is a lot of time to announce "changing priorities" or "reduced spending" to change targets.
I really think Toyota's goal is a bit more immediate; can we develop a solid timeline to scale manufacturing that would give us an edge over the industry? Because being first isn't worth a dime. What they need is a path to having a capacity and price advantage. They will remain in R&D hell until that's ready to go.
titiklabingapat
Member
Very skeptical. But great if it works out even if it only meets half the promised benefits.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Ditto. Well that and if the cars that use it are well designed.
milanbaros
Member?
Their current production rate isn't as high as other car manufacturers but the method of production and ability to scale up is certainly described as mass production.
Volvo, VW, and jaguar of the top of my head are all releasing proper EV's within the next 3 years. GM has already started in earnest so in three years who knows where they'll be. hundai is about to launch the ioniqu (I donno how to spell it.). a proper EV that provides less than respectable (imo) range but at a sub 30K price. Knowing Hyundai they upgrade their line quickly. furthermore, with countries like England and France looking to ban non-EV cars (albeit in like 2040) will certainly not slow things down. the one thing in teslas favour is that trump doesn't care about emissions regulation so at least till the next president arrives one can reasonably assume US will not push EV productions like EU certainly has and will.
If you take Volvo as an example you can compare plans.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-results-idUSKCN0XV2JL
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...s-will-be-electric-or-hybrid-starting-in-2019
And that's electrified, not electric, so a lot of them will be hybrids. GM has a decent electric car but probably no serious plans to mass produce it at this point. They're trying to sell like 30,000 this year.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-results-idUSKCN0XV2JL
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...s-will-be-electric-or-hybrid-starting-in-2019
And that's electrified, not electric, so a lot of them will be hybrids. GM has a decent electric car but probably no serious plans to mass produce it at this point. They're trying to sell like 30,000 this year.
Any improvements in battery tech are very welcome, but there are a number of elephants in the room that are going to stop large scale adoption of EV.
Infrastructure is one, both in terms of charging stations, and also for people how have restricted access to powerpoints at their homes, pricing is another, and the other thing is a change in mindset, this is be a big ask, people have been so used to petrol driven cars for so long that they view any shift with a sideways glance.
Infrastructure is one, both in terms of charging stations, and also for people how have restricted access to powerpoints at their homes, pricing is another, and the other thing is a change in mindset, this is be a big ask, people have been so used to petrol driven cars for so long that they view any shift with a sideways glance.
Not really. As long as a car looks good and is comfortable people will buy it. Hardcore motorheads are a small minority. In my country EVs are frequently top sellers of a given month. Infrastructure follows that success. It gets easier and easier to charge one on your way around town or at home. Government subsidy for environmentally friendly vehicles helps though.
Maybe it's a social thing dependent on country?, which country are you in?, I've seen a lot of responses from the US and the UK that are quite damning, not to mention the whole slew of myths that are banded around.
ReplacementPelican
Member
It wont last long, people always have very strong opinions until they're made to look a bit silly. They're just people fighting against the future, being pretentious about something they barely have a grasp of.
Just give it time.
Bedameister
Member
If they don't give this man his noble prize before he dies I'll be pissed
Its probably easy enough to insulate where the battery is stored.
titiklabingapat
Member
The mindset change will come if you address the other points. People will gravitate to whatever is convenient, and cheap. Most will not even think about it once you hit those two points.