Trial by Jury - What's your take on it?

Coming from Singapore where Trial by Jury is something we watched in a fictional TV show, what's your take on Trial by Jury. Do you trust the juries, made of individuals easily swayed by public sentiments, to pass a fair judgement to the accused? Or do you think a trial without juries and only chaired by a judge are flawed as the judge is but one man and can be easily 'bought/controlled by the rich and powerful'?

A brief history of why Trial by Jury was abandoned in Singapore though:

Mr Lee Kuan Yew, In an interview with the British Broadcasting Corporation, March 5, 1977, which his biographers include in full, the man who has done more than anyone else to create Singapore explains why he rejected Anglo-American system of trial by jury for his country despite the fact he trained as a lawyer at Cambridge. In his first case he was "was assigned to defend four murderers." Fleeing the Japanese, a Dutch woman had entrusted her daughter to a Malay muslim.

"She came back after the war, reclaimed the daughter. The Chief Justice, then an Englishman, pending hearing of the case, sent the girl who had been converted into Islam to a convent to be looked after, and hell broke loose. The police force mutinied. Malays and Muslims took out their knives and a lot of white men, just because they were white, nothing to do with the case, were killed. These four men were accused of killing a Royal Air Force officer and his wife and child. They were travelling on a bus from RAF Changi down to town."

Lee Kuan Yew, who had been assigned the case, explains that he did what any advocate does: He "worked on the weaknesses of the jury -- their biases, their prejudices, their reluctance really to find four Mussulmen [Muslims] guilty of killing in cold blood or in a heat of great passion, religious passion, an RAF officer, his wife and child." And he employed "the simple tricks of advocacy -- contradictions between one witness and another, contradiction between a witness and his previous statement to the police and the preliminary enquiry."
When the jury acquitted the murderers, Lee Kuan Kew reports, "The judge was thoroughly disgusted. I went home feeling quite sick because I knew I'd discharged my duty as required of me, but I knew I had done wrong." He thereupon concluded that no government in which he had a say would employ this foreign, "foolish, completely incongruous system." Pointing out that the French and other Latin nations do not use trial by jury, Lee Kuan Kew argues that it is too "alien" to the basic social attitudes of many other cultures, including those of Asia.
In his Memoirs, Lee adds more detail, but the main points still hold. Thus, it turns out that the young barrister defended four out of fourteen defendants; he brought judge and jury to the scene of the murders at night, demonstrating how difficult recognizing individuals would have been in such conditions; and although "Chinese and Indian jurors were never happy to convict if it meant sending a man to his death," the evidence weighed heavily enough upon their consciences that they did in fact convict nine of the fourteen of "causing grievous hurt," though three of his own clients "got off scot-free" (144). In the Memoirs Lee also explains in more detail why he believed his clients guilty, but the conclusion he drew from this painful experience of the jury system remained the same: "I had no faith in a system that allowed the supersitition, ignorance, biases, and prejudics of seven jurymen to determine guilt or innocence" (144).


Curious about the westerners take on this.
 

*Splinter

Member
There was a thread on here a few days ago about a US police officer who tracked down and killed his daughter's black boyfriend. Maybe I shouldn't jump to conclusions as the jurors will have a better understanding of the case than me, but what appeared to be an open and shut case had failed to reach a conclusion three times - with votes of 11-1 (guilty), 10-2 (guilty), and I think 6-6.

Considering how divisive and contentious issues regarding race and the police are in the US at the moment, it's hard to trust any decision these jurors come to as being free from bias.
 
Stupid, because the jurors dont have any clue about law and just act out of their emotions.
Imagine you have an innocent man sitting there, just acting like an asshole, not caring that someone was hurt in whatever happened, because he is just an asshole. The juries wont judge the case by law, but by their emotions...
Sadly our professor for US law said that mostly judges follow what the jury tells them too even though they dont need to.

I just imagine if we would have such a system in Germany. Technically if you are "stealing" something with the intent to give it back (so just loaning something) it wouldnt be considered theft, but something else. I doubt any ordinary person would know this and people would still say its theft and he would be guilty of that.

A flawed system, but the best possible system, I think. People are certainly stupid at times, but I'd rather that power be in my peers than a single judge. Every effort should be made to carefully select any jury, however.

Why not use more than 1 judge then? Thats how its done in Germany for illegal acts besides stealing bubble gum. You have a main judge and 2-3, depending, side judges. Everyone studied law, everyone knows law.
Why isnt that better than letting people who dont have a clue about law, who mostly act on emotions, decide the fate of a person?

Especially with the jury system after a while people just wanna go home and "go with the flow". I just imagine some racist assholes sitting in the jury thinking foreigners must all be criminals. Or a trial takes so long that, even though you believe someone is/is not guilty, you dont care anymore because you want to finally go home and then you just agree with everyone else.

Disclosure: I am a german law graduate and that is why I dont even get how a jury system can work at all.
 

Xe4

Banned
A flawed system, but the best possible system, I think. People are certainly stupid at times, but I'd rather that power be in my peers than a single judge. Every effort should be made to carefully select any jury, however.
 
Every effort should be made to carefully select any jury, however.

going by my understanding of the selection process of jury in the us though, isn't it random? If so, that will be pretty fucked up.

What if for example you have an accused that's of color and a number of the juries selected were racists?
 

Osahi

Member
I'm against it. In Belgium we only have it for the most severe crimes (murder mostly) and in theory for when press is being prosecuted for whatever reason. (to ensure freedom of press)

But I feel a jury often leads to trials where emotions are more important than facts. I'd rather have a college of judges for the worst crimes.
 

duckroll

Member
going by my understanding of the selection process of jury in the us though, isn't it random? If so, that will be pretty fucked up.

What if for example you have an accused that's of color and a number of the juries selected were racists?

If you're going to make a thread about a subject, wouldn't it be better to at least know what you're talking about first? Just a thought.
 

Q8D3vil

Member
I dont trust it because a lot ot people are biased, racist, pieces of shit.
We don't have it in my country's though.
 

Aiii

So not worth it
One of the many things the US got wrong. You want to convict people based on law and fact, not bias and emotion.

A flawed system, but the best possible system, I think. People are certainly stupid at times, but I'd rather that power be in my peers than a single judge. Every effort should be made to carefully select any jury, however.

This is what the appeals process is for.
 
If you're going to make a thread about a subject, wouldn't it be better to at least know what you're talking about first? Just a thought.

Correct me if i'm wrong.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/how-are-potential-jurors-selected.html

First step: Random Selection.

What's wrong with my assumptions? Voir Dire interviews are not exactly 'accurate' as i've heard so many articles (even in Gizmodo LOL) on how to escape jury duties but 'falsifying' answers.
 

robo

Member
Three or more judges for me. Jury people are to open to their own ideals to judge according to the facts mostly.
 

Brakke

Banned
It's easy to make the ideal case for juries, I think. The people should participate in the state violence carried out on their behalf. There's a democratic virtue in a system where the poorest can sit in judgement on the richest. Call it melodramatic, but the jury embodies so many principles of civic duty.

We probably don't implement the system as well as we should. It's too easy to dodge jury duty, and there are too many people who want to dodge it.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
I guess my feelings about it mirror my feelings about democracy post trump/brexit.

It's a good idea that befits a better educated populace but our society cannot make full use of the public voice, as it is now, in law and in governance. Not sure if I'd prefer the alternative though.
 

duckroll

Member

That's how you get an initial pool. That's not the construction of the actual jury. The actual selection process is when people who have been selected are interviewed by lawyers on both sides, and they have to agree who to pick and who to drop. The initial pool has to be random because everyone has to have equal chance of being chosen as a juror for a given case, or it wouldn't be fair.
 

Hjod

Banned
I wouldn't want it where I live. People should be judged by the law, not by emotions and by people who have no idea how the law works. People are to easily influenced, it becomes less about the evidence and more about a lawyer/prosecution influencing people.
 
Correct me if i'm wrong.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/how-are-potential-jurors-selected.html

First step: Random Selection.

What's wrong with my assumptions? Voir Dire interviews are not exactly 'accurate' as i've heard so many articles (even in Gizmodo LOL) on how to escape jury duties but 'falsifying' answers.

The jury pool is created from a random selection, then it is narrowed down by the opposing attorneys until the required amount are chosen. Attorneys can challenge the selection of particular jurors due to things like being over racists.
You should watch the jury selection episode of The People vs OJ Simpson, for an extreme and dramatized example of this.
 

digdug2k

Member
going by my understanding of the selection process of jury in the us though, isn't it random? If so, that will be pretty fucked up.

What if for example you have an accused that's of color and a number of the juries selected were racists?
Its not random. Lawyers have a chance to question and vet potential jurors.

I think its probably the best you can do. Despite lawyers/judges thinking they're somehow above bias and prejudice... no one is. At least you've got a panel of people's biases and prejudices deciding your fate instead of one guys. And having people who aren't crazy versed in the law probably also plays more into the defendants hand (which is good IMO) than the prosecutors. "Yeah she killed him, but he kinda deserved it."
 
I don't like it because juries can be made up of anybody no matter how suitable they actually are. I'd rather it not be a thing but if you're going to insist on it there should be at least some sort of aptitude test to make sure you're not a complete fucking idiot who actually understands the concepts being presented.
 
The Jury system is very flawed when it comes to domestic abuse and rape trials and had my own bad experience with it myself. A lot of times rapist even when evidence is clear or witnesses are sound in their explanation a jury can make some mingboggling decisions. They often act on emotions. A great manipulative lawyer can manage to twist reality and make the guilty get away with crime.

Norway is getting rid of the jury system (this year) and I am happy about that. There has been plenty of terrible verdicts where gang rapists have been acquitted because of the jurys verdict. We still have a system where you still can have civilians in trial, but they need to apply to be a civilian judge and are not picked out of the blue. It is better to have a more qualified and educated people to handle complex cases than random jurors who think that a rape victim is a slut or that people of colour are aggressors.
 
It's good in theory but it gets muddled with jury selection and the unanimous rule which usually just leads to hung jury's or people getting pressured in to confirming to the group instead of looking at the evidence themselves. Plus it's supposed to be a jury of your peers but it rarly reflects that.
 

Xe4

Banned
going by my understanding of the selection process of jury in the us though, isn't it random? If so, that will be pretty fucked up.

What if for example you have an accused that's of color and a number of the juries selected were racists?
No, they're not random as has been pointed out. Once the initial pool is selected, they are whittled down by both the defense and prosecution to try to make the most unbiased pool for either possible. It's certainly not perfect, but it's not completely awful either.
This is what the appeals process is for.
The US has an appeals process too. And besides, appeals don't change the fact that juries exist to take the power out of an elite judiciary which can be more easily swayed by the necessity of reelection, bribery, or the biases of one person.

Also, the US is far from the only country that uses juries.
 

KayMote

Member
Well, I have recently seen the OJ Made in America documentary, so you can probably imagine what my take on it is.
 

Atolm

Member
I'm against it. In Spain it seems we only have it for the most controversial cases, that involve rape & murder of children.

Almost 20 years ago we had a case (the Rocio Whanninkhof case, Google it) in which a woman was wrongfully convicted of the murder of her lover's daughter. The fact that she was a lesbian (this was before gay marriage was legal) and living in a small town helped to create a media hysteria surrounding the case that blocked out the jury. They totally ignored evidence that made impossible for her to be guilty. Yet, they convicted her.

3 years later DNA evidence was discovered that pointed to a man that was also guilty of another murder & rape case.
 
The jury pool is created from a random selection, then it is narrowed down by the opposing attorneys until the required amount are chosen. Attorneys can challenge the selection of particular jurors due to things like being over racists.
You should watch the jury selection episode of The People vs OJ Simpson, for an extreme and dramatized example of this.

i've watched that..and it's the reason why US court dramas are so much dramatic than others..

that verdict can be swayed by public sentiments is always pretty ridiculous although i can see why people do not trust the sole judgement of a single judge as well
 
12 people can make a better decision than 1.
Being a judge doesn't give you a better ability to know right from wrong.

an argument against this is that a judge is much more well-versed in the law and the process of passing judgement based on evidence rather than emotions..

but i got what you are saying.
 

duckroll

Member
12 people can make a better decision than 1.
Being a judge doesn't give you a better ability to know right from wrong.

Actually as far as the law goes... it does? The concerns should be with regards to individual bias, corruption, and so on. With regards to legal understanding, there is no question that a judge would be better trained to know what is correct or incorrect than a layman.
 

Chuckie

Member
i've watched that..and it's the reason why US court dramas are so much dramatic than others..

that verdict can be swayed by public sentiments is always pretty ridiculous although i can see why people do not trust the sole judgement of a single judge as well

That is why in bigger (more serious) cases they use three judges in the Netherlands.

I rather be judged by 3 people who studied years to make it their profession than 12 laymen tbh.
 

DrSlek

Member
12 people can make a better decision than 1.
Being a judge doesn't give you a better ability to know right from wrong.

But it does give you a better ability to decide whether an action is legal or illegal, or whether evidence presented is enough to produce a verdict of guilty/not guilty.

As said above, several judges is probably better.
 
That is why in bigger (more serious) cases they use three judges in the Netherlands.

I rather be judged by 3 people who studied years to make it their profession than 12 laymen tbh.

The best part about it is that judges are forced to exhaustively document their reasoning making it much easier to appeal against arbitrary or poorly reasoned verdicts. Sure, you still get miscarriages of justice but they're rare and more often than not corrected in the appeals system.

It also increases the professionalism of law enforcement and persecutors because investigators can see exactly where their evidence was flawed, incomplete or non-compelling. That knowledge feeds into subsequent cases.

Professionalism, transparency and objectivity are highly preferable to emotional appeals and dealing with the random character flaws of jurors.
 
Actually as far as the law goes... it does? The concerns should be with regards to individual bias, corruption, and so on. With regards to legal understanding, there is no question that a judge would be better trained to know what is correct or incorrect than a layman.
The law isn't nearly as clear cut as you make it out to be. And rarely are the facts of a case that clear cut either.
i've watched that..and it's the reason why US court dramas are so much dramatic than others..

that verdict can be swayed by public sentiments is always pretty ridiculous although i can see why people do not trust the sole judgement of a single judge as well
That's why they sequester them and interview them about their knowledge of the case and preconceived notions, etc. But such a high profile case is an outlier - most cases are pretty low profile and you only hear about the egregious ones. Most of the time the jury system works as expected, I'd think.
 
My own experience as juror was weird. I was Jury Foreman on a assault cast. For me this was an open and shut case. Two people had been assaulted by a man with a knife. He claimed self defense, no wounds of his own. He fled the scene and dumped the knife after covering it in bleach.

I was certain this guy was guilty of at the very least one count of assault. However more than half said they weren't sure because one of the victims looked shifty and he had a criminal record. He was a thief, but never convicted for assault.

On the jurors was certain that it was self defense and convinced most of the others. I asked and he said his wife was friends with the suspect....

Judge deiced a mistrial was the best way to go. The part that will stick to me, is that regardless of whether this guy was guilty or innocent, one person not following the rules, could have perverted the whole thing.
 

mclem

Member
I've sat on a jury twice. The system in the UK doesn't seem too bad, in that we are explicitly not making assessments in law terms - instead, they pitch the questions that are being addressed with care so you're clear what the exact question you're working with is.

That said, there've been a few people in the juries that I've been on who missed the core point of what we were being asked to assess - it's been the case that others on the jury have set them right, but I can imagine problems arising if no-one in the jury covers that.

When I first sat on a jury someone on here (Phisheep, I think?) recommended me this book, which is excellent: A journalist happened to be asked to sit on a jury that happened to be for an unusually long case (one of mine lasted a week, the other only a couple of days) and wrote up his experience after it happened in the contexts he was allowed to talk about. It's a great insight in the process and the mindset of the jury as a case goes on.
 

Gotchaye

Member
But it does give you a better ability to decide whether an action is legal or illegal, or whether evidence presented is enough to produce a verdict of guilty/not guilty.

As said above, several judges is probably better.
In the US, juries are instructed only to make a factual determination, not to decide what's actually legal or illegal. Of course, juries can find however they like for whatever reason they like, as long as they're not too open about it, but this is not generally what they do. Sometimes this leads to pretty bad results, like jury nullification of civil rights laws, though sometimes jury nullification is used for good.
 
I've sat on a jury twice. The system in the UK doesn't seem too bad, in that we are explicitly not making assessments in law terms - instead, they pitch the questions that are being addressed with care so you're clear what the exact question you're working with is.

That's basically what our jury instructions ask them to do, and what the attorneys are framing their cases around. See the California murder instructions, for example: https://www.justia.com/criminal/docs/calcrim/500/520.html

It is formatted as a series of questions/items that the jury members have to determine, factually. They're not being asked to make a judgment as a matter of law.
 

mclem

Member
The jury pool is created from a random selection, then it is narrowed down by the opposing attorneys until the required amount are chosen. Attorneys can challenge the selection of particular jurors due to things like being over racists.
You should watch the jury selection episode of The People vs OJ Simpson, for an extreme and dramatized example of this.

My frame of reference was Murder One, but the principle is the same!

For the cases I worked on, it was rather simpler; just a quick question about whether you know any of the people involved (which had a slight extra complexity for one, given one person involved was a TV personality, so that was modified to a personal acquaintance with her), and then as they went through the random list, the lawyers were permitted to ask you to stand down for any reason.
 

Dhx

Member
Study enough jury results and you can only reasonably come away with one conclusion. Juries are fucking terrifying.

If I were ever wrongfully accused of something, I would very strongly consider a bench trial.
 

TheYanger

Member
Correct me if i'm wrong.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/how-are-potential-jurors-selected.html

First step: Random Selection.

What's wrong with my assumptions? Voir Dire interviews are not exactly 'accurate' as i've heard so many articles (even in Gizmodo LOL) on how to escape jury duties but 'falsifying' answers.

Voir Dire is extensive. Falsifying answers to get OFF of a jury doesn't really matters much in this context either, if someone doesn't want to be there I (as a defendant in this case) DO NOT WANT THEM ON THE JURY ANYWAY. So let em lie nad get out of it.

Nobody has ever said juries are flawless, but given a sampling of citizens vs court/government appointed professionals, I think it is definitely the way to go.

"It goes over people's heads" seems grossly misrepresentative of people's intelligence level. You don't have to be a genius to understand a case that is properly presented, in fact you're not supposed to be, there are expert witness testimonies for a reason.

I'm not a lawyer, but I've been on a few juries in my time. As much as it would scare me that some people would come to the 'wrong' conclusion, that's possible no matter who oversees it, professional or not.
 
It makes for good tv, and that is the only upside. Too much emotion, manipulation and people without expertise making important decisions.
 

DrDamn

Member
I found jury service very interesting, but not always in comfortable ways. I find it a good, noble *idea* that can be very worrying in practice. I suppose there are lots of fail-safes in place which allow for retrial, appeals etc, but that shouldn't be as necessary as it is in a good well founded system.

I'm not sure what is the right solution though, just that I feel random juries are not good enough. More than one judge for serious cases or a judge plus a couple of highly trained legal professionals. I'd consider professional jurors. Not sure how that would work but people who's job it is and are better trained and qualified than the general populace in making these assessments.
 

Machina

Banned
Juries should be made up of certified Criminologists. They're still regular people, but they have actually been educated in the field instead of being some grumpy fuck randomly picked from the community who'd rather not be there at all
 
Juries should be made up of certified Criminologists. They're still regular people, but they have actually been educated in the field instead of being some grumpy fuck randomly picked from the community who'd rather not be there at all

unless basic criminology was taught as a mandatory subject in high school, i don't think that will work.
 
Top Bottom