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Trump handed Merkel 300bn bill for what germany "owed" Nato

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X

Xtyle

Member
We may be missing the point. How do we know that at this point Trump is not acting this way to continue to dismantle NATO and undermine the U.S? Most likely Russia's influence has not been stopped.
 
D

Dehnus

Member
BocoDragon said:
Trump is a fucking moron.

Charging people for American/Western hegemony?

American military protecting Europe/NATO is America's big advantage in the world... and you're acting like it's a burden you need to be paid for?

It's fundamentally backwards.
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Those JSF's need to be bought you know. Lockheed has shareholders! And corporations are people! What are you? Trying to murder a person?

;)
 
J

jelly

Member
Ladekabel said:
commonqyugw.gif
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I love her detailed reaction, subtle and deliberate. Merkel is the boss.
 
bengraven

bengraven

Member
Fuck this explains why he was so shy at their meeting. This was supposed to be a note asking "if you like me circle yes or no"
 
O

oti

Banned
jelly said:
I love her detailed reaction, subtle and deliberate. Merkel is the boss.
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It's actually quite funny how this was perceived. Suddenly people here in Germany came out and said they were proud of Merkel. That NEVER HAPPENS EVER. Thanks, Trump.
 
nekkid

nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
A percentage GDP commitment to NATO is something I agree with. So did Obama. So I can understand frustrations when some countries pay less.

Handing over a bill was not the right way to approach that subject, though...ffs.
 
Y

yanipheonu

Member
Reminds me when I was working for a customer service line, and someone attempted to send a bill for the time it took for their problem to be solved over the phone.

It just doesn't work that way.
 
S

Shoeless

Member
nekkid said:
A percentage GDP commitment to NATO is something I agree with. So did Obama. So I can understand frustrations when some countries pay less.

Handing over a bill was not the right way to approach that subject, though...ffs.
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I think this, more than anything else, probably speaks to Trump's motivations more than anyone else's. He seems to genuinely believe the worst thing that can happen to a person is that they are put on the spot in a public way, that demands they respond in a certain way, or face embarrassment and humiliation, which, clearly to him, are more unacceptable than anything else.

But when other people don't actually think that way, his entire strategy--which seems to be exploit self-esteem issues--falls apart. He just can't conceive that other people wouldn't be as phobic of "public humiliation" as he is and bases his entire negotiating style around that.
 
nekkid

nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Shoeless said:
I think this, more than anything else, probably speaks to Trump's motivations more than anyone else's. He seems to genuinely believe the worst thing that can happen to a person is that they are put on the spot in a public way, that demands they respond in a certain way, or face embarrassment and humiliation, which, clearly to him, are more unacceptable than anything else.

But when other people don't actually think that way, his entire strategy--which seems to be exploit self-esteem issues--falls apart. He just can't conceive that other people wouldn't be as phobic of "public humiliation" as he is and bases his entire negotiating style around that.
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Yeah, that's an astute observation, actually.
 
V

VendettaRed07

Member
So intimidation and demands didn't work on random libertarian house republican representatives... but maybe it'll work on the Prime Minister of Germany
 
O

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Huh.

You'd think our relationship with Germany would be better under someone like Trump....
 
F

Frankfurter

Member
nekkid said:
A percentage GDP commitment to NATO is something I agree with. So did Obama. So I can understand frustrations when some countries pay less.

Handing over a bill was not the right way to approach that subject, though...ffs.
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Why? The whole 2% thing is totally useless. First, it's not about military spending that benefits NATO, it's about all military spending. Second, there is no mutual definition of what military spending includes. So if you really wanna meet that 2% target, just do some creative accounting. Germany could easily have 5 or 10% military spending starting tomorrow without actually spending a single additional Euro. Third, the priority should be about actual capabilities, instead of numbers.
It's a terrible goal set by those that just wanna see military spending for military spendings sake.
 
1

1.21Gigawatts

Banned
oti xero said:
It's actually quite funny how this was perceived. Suddenly people here in Germany came out and said they were proud of Merkel. That NEVER HAPPENS EVER. Thanks, Trump.
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Cheerleader effect.
Next to Trump, Merkel looks like a really awesome head of state.

I actually think she is doing a very good job. Even though I'm left wing and would probably never vote for her right wing party.
 
M

Mahonay

Banned
Pandaman said:
It wasn't subtle at all. It was pretty offensive to Germany though.
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I mean, yeah, if there's an implied WWII joke in there, that's plain offensive.

But Trump has been talking shit about Germany during the election as well, so I'm hoping that was the joke.
 
R

RenditMan

Banned
Frankfurter said:
Why? The whole 2% thing is totally useless. First, it's not about military spending that benefits NATO, it's about all military spending. Second, there is no mutual definition of what military spending includes. So if you really wanna meet that 2% target, just do some creative accounting. Germany could easily have 5 or 10% military spending starting tomorrow without actually spending a single additional Euro. Third, the priority should be about actual capabilities, instead of numbers.
It's a terrible goal set by those that just wanna see military spending for military spendings sake.
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Err not without lying to the electorate which I'm pretty sure is illegal in Germany.

The 2% figure was agreed as a show of political will to nato. Every member agreed it.

Nato is a political union after all.
 
K

kmag

Member
RenditMan said:
Err not without lying to the electorate which I'm pretty sure is illegal in Germany.

The 2% figure was agreed as a show of political will to nato. Every member agreed it.

Nato is a political union after all.
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They 'agreed' to do it by 2024. Is it 2024 yet?

They increased spending by 6.8% this year over last year, with another 11% going to the equipment budget this year. Germany has the manpower (treaty commitments prevent them from increasing), it takes years to design, tender and source new weapons system. Hell it takes years even if you're buying off the shelf.

They've got a pan European tender out for the Tornado fighter/bomber replacement, but it's early days. The replacement won't be coming on stream until post 2030, but that's pretty typical for a new airframe.

America's real issue is they're not buying US equipment, that's what the 2% commitment is about.
 
V

Vixdean

Member
It's just ridiculous because Germany's economy is basically undergirding the entire EU at this point. To assert they aren't "pulling their weight" in any respect is just stupid, especially since the financial crisis (that we caused).
 
D

DavidDesu

Member
The levels of immaturity and complete lack of ordinary procedure in this guy's running of the White House will never cease to amaze me. Literally anything could happen.
 
M

Muffin1611

Banned
RenditMan said:
Err not without lying to the electorate which I'm pretty sure is illegal in Germany.

The 2% figure was agreed as a show of political will to nato. Every member agreed it.

Nato is a political union after all.
Click to expand...

They agreed to a non-binding, not-enforcable guideline. What exactly is your argument?
 
G

guybrushfreeman

Unconfirmed Member
RenditMan said:
Err not without lying to the electorate which I'm pretty sure is illegal in Germany.

The 2% figure was agreed as a show of political will to nato. Every member agreed it.

Nato is a political union after all.
Click to expand...

I tired to explain this to you earlier but you seem to have ignored it so I will repost my edit from above to you here:

Edit2: I do want to explain it well because it's important. No one ever 'said they would' jump to 2% instantly. Of course that's crazy and very damaging.

It's important to understand that the agreement was always for countries to meet that goal in the best way possible. Of course it doesn't help NATO for countries to start spending money that is needed elsewhere. The 2014 agreement came into effect after the large financial crisis threatened to push numbers back further because that money was needed to rebuild their country.

In 2014 the agreement became stronger but don't mistake that to mean people weren't adhering to the agreement before that. There was at no point a requirement that countries jump recklessly to 2%GDP spending. Such a requirement would incredibly damaging to everyone involved.

This 'bill' is nonsense is every form and has no basis in any agreement the US has ever been a party to. The NATO allies continue to move responsibly toward that goal of 2% spending, it would benefit no one for them to pull out spending from other programs suddenly to start funding unneeded military expansion
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V

Violet_0

Banned
Tyaren said:
Wow, that is so insulting on so many levels. D: Merkel must have nerves of steel to just politely ignore such an deliberate affront.
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after 12 years of Putin, Erdogan, Berlusconi, Orban she probably didn't even blink at this low-tier troll effort
 
K

KingV

Member
Vixdean said:
It's just ridiculous because Germany's economy is basically undergirding the entire EU at this point. To assert they aren't "pulling their weight" in any respect is just stupid, especially since the financial crisis (that we caused).
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I would argue that Germany is as much more of an albatross to other EU countries than it is a help.

The countries that are struggling the most, such as Italy, Spain, an Greece are hurt by Germany's insistence on a strong Euro and having a currency tied to a strong economy. Conversely, Germany is helped by being tied to weaker currencies that put a downward pressure on the Euro that wouldn't exist if they were still on Deutschmarks.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Surfinn said:
That is horrible logic. "Because lots of people didn't vote and could have voted against Trump, Americans are idiots"

.. What? So the 65M who voted for Hillary should be in this category too?
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Take the L man, America elected Trump, albeit with a lot of Russian espionage involved

We do suck

But we will hopefully get better in four years and Europe will still be the place where they thought a monetary union without a fiscal union was a good idea soooooo
 
S

Surfinn

Member
pigeon said:
Take the L man, America elected Trump, albeit with a lot of Russian espionage involved

We do suck

But we will hopefully get better in four years and Europe will still be the place where they thought a monetary union without a fiscal union was a good idea soooooo
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My point had nothing to do with winning or losing. But I agree with the optimism.
 
B

BrutishMrFish

Member
Surfinn said:
"Because lots of people didn't vote and could have voted against Trump, Americans are idiots"
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Yes. If a building is on fire, the people who act like everything is fine while they're starting to sweat are idiots. And if the majority of the people in that building do nothing, it would not be unfair for someone to say that the people in that building were a bunch of morons even if a quarter of them actually tried to stop the fire.
 
S

Surfinn

Member
BrutishMrFish said:
Yes. If a building is on fire, the people who act like everything is fine while they're starting to sweat are idiots. And if the majority of the people in that building do nothing, it would not be unfair for someone to say that the people in that building were a bunch of morons even if a quarter of them actually tried to stop the fire.
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That would give the false impression that no one tried to stop the fire. It's important to recognize that there's still a huge amount of people who are gunna help you put out future fires.

Generalizations.. How do they work

Anyway this isn't going anywhere. You wanna pretend like it's not important to recognize moving forward alright.
 
C

CoffeeJanitor

Member
While this probably is not the best way to get the message across, other NATO members should be investing the 2%.

This shouldn't even be a partisan thing.
 
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