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Trying to learn German. Please save me.
- Thread starter L Thammy
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Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
It was, but there was still a mistake in there as pointed out above. Just saying, it was still understandable.
Yeah, but not really like women being female is that hard, lol.Da sind sie wieder, die "bösen" Artikel.
Maedre
Banned
sry, i can't see the connection, "die"...."frauen".... nope no connection. xD
I think that this whole topic is overvalued. You can't expect from somone who is learning geramn that this person knows the right usage of "der", "die" and "das". But when yu start to speak german, especialy in conversations with other german speaking persons, you should get a feeling for the right use. Its not easy but better as trying to memorize every instance.
Practice is everything. Thats on of the reasons i am here now. I have to practice english. Ten years out of school and nearly ten years without writing in english. I have to keep up.
I usually get it right nowadays when using Duolingo. I didn't want to look it up now to see if I could do it from memory. Seems like I need more practice 
You kind of get a feel for it, even when using it with words that you haven't heard before.
It's the same in Swedish with en/ett (means 'one/a/an')
You kind of get a feel for it, even when using it with words that you haven't heard before.
It's the same in Swedish with en/ett (means 'one/a/an')
I usually get it right nowadays when using Duolingo. I didn't want to look it up now to see if I could do it from memory. Seems like I need more practice
But that was already pretty good.
"Der" "Die" and "Das" are some of the most common mistakes. So don't sweat it if you get it wrong. You'll get better if you practice enough
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
The gender stuff is the thing you see the most complaints about in here. Being a native speaker I can't judge how difficult it actually is, since when I actually encounter a new noun and have to look it up (though that hasn't happened in a while I think) the dictionary just lists the gender as well and then I just remember that. What's important is, that's the only thing you messed up. You conjugated "lernen" correctly to first person singular "lerne", used the plural "Frauen" and used the right flexion of "schön" when referring to something in plural "schönen." So that's already doing a good job. Although someone more nitpicky might note that you have to capitalise "Deutsch" because you're using it as a noun.I usually get it right nowadays when using Duolingo. I didn't want to look it up now to see if I could do it from memory. Seems like I need more practice
You kind of get a feel for it, even when using it with words that you haven't heard before.
It's the same in Swedish with en/ett (means 'one/a/an')
If the word is plural the article is pretty much always "die". That's something to keep in mind for people learning the language. I'm trying to think of exceptions but I don't think there are any and if there are, I don't know them off the top of my head.
Or I'm just being stupid.
Bedameister
Member
No I think this is correct. I'm thinking of random plurals now myself and it's always "die"
This thread is actually very interesting because as a native German speaker you never think of all these things.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, it's always super weird explaining things you just "get" because you learned them subconsciously. It's like explaining muscle memory to someone.
Chairmanchuck
Member
When my wife learned german I was surprised about all these rules, that native speakers like us just "use" without thinking about them.
Like almost every word that ends with -chen is using "das".
Maedre
Banned
mhh, i can't find a single words that wouldn't fall under this regulation.
I'm pretty sure that's one of the few rules without exceptions.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Talking about articles and compound words, I'm not sure if this falls under common sense anyway, but maybe it helps someone:
The article of a compound word is always the same as the one you use for its last word.
For example: die Baumschule -> der Baum (the tree) + die Schule (the school).
der Wetterbericht -> das Wetter (the weather) + der Bericht (the report)
This is true no matter if your compound word is made up of 2 or 200 words.
..Yeah it's weird actively thinking about what 'rules' there are for stuff you just use subconsciously all the time.
The article of a compound word is always the same as the one you use for its last word.
For example: die Baumschule -> der Baum (the tree) + die Schule (the school).
der Wetterbericht -> das Wetter (the weather) + der Bericht (the report)
This is true no matter if your compound word is made up of 2 or 200 words.
..Yeah it's weird actively thinking about what 'rules' there are for stuff you just use subconsciously all the time.
Maedre
Banned
wow.Oo
Its like people who never went to germany imagine germany.
Charlouie Jonesman
Banned
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPMRkQK2szI
There's an interesting double meaning at play here. The girl is saying she's going away to the fictional "Fuck You Avenue" to get some respite, but there's another meaning hidden in those lyrics, because you can also take that line to mean "Fickt euch alle", i.e. "Fuck all of you".
Well, I guess it's kinda the same. Consider your German lesson for today concluded, OP.
There's an interesting double meaning at play here. The girl is saying she's going away to the fictional "Fuck You Avenue" to get some respite, but there's another meaning hidden in those lyrics, because you can also take that line to mean "Fickt euch alle", i.e. "Fuck all of you".
Well, I guess it's kinda the same. Consider your German lesson for today concluded, OP.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Neat tip!
It's so easy. You say "Es ist halb 9", not "Es ist halb nach 8". Why not "Viertel 8" and "Dreiviertel 8", then?
A "dreiviertel" Pizza:
Just imagine your clock being a pizza. Works with "viertel" or "halb", too.
Sorry for the bump, but this annoys me to no end at work (half the team (me included) works from bavaria, the other one from Sachsen):
Dreiviertel 8 ("three quarter eight) = 6.
Viertel 8 = 2.
It's simple math people.
"Halb acht" doesn't count
DieNgamers
Member
It also makes sense once you think about it that way: Wetterbericht....the word is mainly describing a Bericht (report), not the "Wetter" (weather), right?
So the article is "der Wetterbericht" rather than "das Wetterbericht", which would be wrong.
The following is total nosense but let's imagine there's weather that is strongly influenced by reports. Report weather! Ha!
In German the article+noun would be "das Berichtswetter". It's about weather that's really report-y. ;D
.......German language is mean for using "die" articles for plural, though.
I had a Störtebeker beer just now, yummy!
The hour itself (6,7,8..whatever) doesn't matter...The pizza theory applies if one full hour = one pizza. You add pieces until it fills that plate!
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Delicious.
Maedre
Banned
Who cares
cascardian
Member
So many people with gender issues ...
I'm joking, but it saddens me to see that none or very few of you apparently have had a German teacher knowledgeable in linguistics. At least it does not surprise me that the natives here think gender assignments are practically arbitrary and that you just know them by being a native speaker. That's normal and understandable. You speak the language fluently, why should you care about specific domain knowledge only linguists would likely have? In teaching German as a second language, however, the system behind it should be properly explained to avoid the confusion we're seeing here.
Because the truth is, of course, that there is a simple--but very effective!--system at work here that you don't consciously realise when you grow up with the language. Gender is a way of classifying nouns into specific categories and it developed relatively quickly for very specific reasons--I can elaborate if you want me to. Anyway, for German it works as follows:
- Masculine is the default gender (with the article 'der'). All words come to end up here if they don't meet the criteria of the other categories. Words can also evolve in their usage. For example, I've noticed that, a bit more than a decade ago, Germans began using 'blog' by importing it as 'das Blog', classifying it neuter probably as part of a general misconception that words in languages that don't decline gender anymore are somehow neutral. Anyway, people who started using blogs at that time are more likely to still use 'das', whereas the general populace has since adopted it into the default gender: 'der Blog'. Both are correct usage for now, until all neuter users die off and usage will slowly normalise into masculine. Further examples: 'der Artikel' (the article), 'der Typ' (the type or the guy), 'der Partner' (the partner), 'der Teufel' (the devil), 'der Zwilling' (the twin). The list is endless, really.
- Feminine is the gender of grouping and plural ('die'). Yes, you all know that the article 'die' goes with plural nouns. What about singular usage? It's pretty easy: It's used for things that signify a group or represent a grouping of things or ideas of some kind. Things that are collectives that are thought to act singularly. Want examples? 'Die Band' (the music group/band), 'die Gruppe' (the group), 'die Schule' (school), 'die Liebe' (love), 'die Philosophie' (philosophy). I think this also portrays a bit why plurals as you now understand them--collections of singular things rather than singularly acting collectives--had later developed to use the feminine.
- Neuter is the gender of abstraction and things, or, more accurately, an action that has resulted in something ('das'). Now, you may think to yourself that this seems rather similar to the feminine usage for a collective of things, and historically speaking you'd be right, as the feminine developed last. Everything was neuter at first. What are examples, then, of abstraction or actions resulting in things? Well, some may be a bit hard to grasp. Take 'das Boot' (the boat). Clearly, it's a thing. But it is also, and more importantly from a grammatical standpoint, a thing that resulted from an action being undertaken. Other examples are 'das Los' (the lottery ticket, sometimes used metaphorically to mean one's destiny), 'das Leben' (life), 'das Tier' (the animal), 'das Gesicht' (the face).
This is not foolproof for learning, as you might imagine, as a lot of words are so old that the perfective action it represents is somewhat obscured to a modern speaker. Take 'Gesicht', for instance, which originally meant something like that which is seen by looking with your eyes (at other eyes, presumably). The prefix ge- was a way of creating perfectives for a long time in German (as much as it is used for creating the past participle of German's constructed simple past these days) plus the '-sicht' which stands for the imperfective action of seeing/looking. The act of simply looking was interpreted as having no result and thus required the perfective prefix. You see: Ad hoc explanations usually don't work in these cases and some etymology may be required in a few instances.
So there you go! The German gender system in a nutshell: If a noun is not feminine (not a collective of things), it is neuter (an abstraction or action that led to something). If it is not neuter (or not neuter anymore), it is by default masculine.
I'm joking, but it saddens me to see that none or very few of you apparently have had a German teacher knowledgeable in linguistics. At least it does not surprise me that the natives here think gender assignments are practically arbitrary and that you just know them by being a native speaker. That's normal and understandable. You speak the language fluently, why should you care about specific domain knowledge only linguists would likely have? In teaching German as a second language, however, the system behind it should be properly explained to avoid the confusion we're seeing here.
Because the truth is, of course, that there is a simple--but very effective!--system at work here that you don't consciously realise when you grow up with the language. Gender is a way of classifying nouns into specific categories and it developed relatively quickly for very specific reasons--I can elaborate if you want me to. Anyway, for German it works as follows:
- Masculine is the default gender (with the article 'der'). All words come to end up here if they don't meet the criteria of the other categories. Words can also evolve in their usage. For example, I've noticed that, a bit more than a decade ago, Germans began using 'blog' by importing it as 'das Blog', classifying it neuter probably as part of a general misconception that words in languages that don't decline gender anymore are somehow neutral. Anyway, people who started using blogs at that time are more likely to still use 'das', whereas the general populace has since adopted it into the default gender: 'der Blog'. Both are correct usage for now, until all neuter users die off and usage will slowly normalise into masculine. Further examples: 'der Artikel' (the article), 'der Typ' (the type or the guy), 'der Partner' (the partner), 'der Teufel' (the devil), 'der Zwilling' (the twin). The list is endless, really.
- Feminine is the gender of grouping and plural ('die'). Yes, you all know that the article 'die' goes with plural nouns. What about singular usage? It's pretty easy: It's used for things that signify a group or represent a grouping of things or ideas of some kind. Things that are collectives that are thought to act singularly. Want examples? 'Die Band' (the music group/band), 'die Gruppe' (the group), 'die Schule' (school), 'die Liebe' (love), 'die Philosophie' (philosophy). I think this also portrays a bit why plurals as you now understand them--collections of singular things rather than singularly acting collectives--had later developed to use the feminine.
- Neuter is the gender of abstraction and things, or, more accurately, an action that has resulted in something ('das'). Now, you may think to yourself that this seems rather similar to the feminine usage for a collective of things, and historically speaking you'd be right, as the feminine developed last. Everything was neuter at first. What are examples, then, of abstraction or actions resulting in things? Well, some may be a bit hard to grasp. Take 'das Boot' (the boat). Clearly, it's a thing. But it is also, and more importantly from a grammatical standpoint, a thing that resulted from an action being undertaken. Other examples are 'das Los' (the lottery ticket, sometimes used metaphorically to mean one's destiny), 'das Leben' (life), 'das Tier' (the animal), 'das Gesicht' (the face).
This is not foolproof for learning, as you might imagine, as a lot of words are so old that the perfective action it represents is somewhat obscured to a modern speaker. Take 'Gesicht', for instance, which originally meant something like that which is seen by looking with your eyes (at other eyes, presumably). The prefix ge- was a way of creating perfectives for a long time in German (as much as it is used for creating the past participle of German's constructed simple past these days) plus the '-sicht' which stands for the imperfective action of seeing/looking. The act of simply looking was interpreted as having no result and thus required the perfective prefix. You see: Ad hoc explanations usually don't work in these cases and some etymology may be required in a few instances.
So there you go! The German gender system in a nutshell: If a noun is not feminine (not a collective of things), it is neuter (an abstraction or action that led to something). If it is not neuter (or not neuter anymore), it is by default masculine.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Been a Guinness fan since going to Ireland.
I'm gat from a connoisseur so I just like Stiegl locally and Wieselburger when I'm feeling fancy.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Just saw something on Reddit and had to think of this thread. It's a site that has a bunch of German stories and poems from the 19th century including their English translation and you can view them side by side:
http://germanstories.vcu.edu/index_stories.html
For example, Der Erlkönig:
http://germanstories.vcu.edu/goethe/erl_dual.html
http://germanstories.vcu.edu/index_stories.html
For example, Der Erlkönig:
http://germanstories.vcu.edu/goethe/erl_dual.html
The undoubtedly superior version:
Der König Erl
Wer reitet so spät durch Wind und Nacht?
Es ist der Vater. Es ist gleich acht.
Den Knaben er im Arm wohl hält.
Er reitet schnell, denn der ist erkält'.
Heut' werdens' wohl etwas länger brauchen,
Denn Paps will erstmal eine Rauchen.
Der Knabe ruft: Hey Daddy du,
ich lieg doch im Sterben, nun reit doch zu!
Halb acht, halb neun, es wird schon heller,
Der Vater reitet immer schneller,
Erreicht den Hof mit Müh und Not,
Der Knabe lebt, das Pferd ist tot.
Even worse, there's alcohol in beer!
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
I recently found out about this channel:
Deutsch für Euch
I haven't watched all of her videos since I don't really need to, but I've sampled a few of them and she does a good job of explaining the basic rules and even does some videos on cultural things like how our school system works. Maybe it helps someone in here out!
Deutsch für Euch
I haven't watched all of her videos since I don't really need to, but I've sampled a few of them and she does a good job of explaining the basic rules and even does some videos on cultural things like how our school system works. Maybe it helps someone in here out!
Stiflers Mom
Banned
Dagobert Duck
Member
Deutsch ist doch einfach 
Aber Kölsch
On topic: Yeah german isnt that easy, especially if it isnt your first language....
Aber Kölsch On topic: Yeah german isnt that easy, especially if it isnt your first language....
Articles/Genders..... how the fuck should I know Tisch is masculine? there are thousands of words people know their genders only because "papa and mama used them correctly when I was little so I learned by listening"
Yeah great,
Löffel
Gabel
Messer
one is Das, one is Der and one is Die,
have fun guessing, foreigner!!
Yeah great,
Löffel
Gabel
Messer
one is Das, one is Der and one is Die,
have fun guessing, foreigner!!
Dagobert Duck
Member
Articles/Genders..... how the fuck should I know Tisch is masculine? there are thousands of words people know their genders only because "papa and mama used them correctly when I was little so I learned by listening"
Yeah great,
Löffel
Gabel
Messer
one is Das, one is Der and one is Die,
have fun guessing, foreigner!!
Best one, "das Mädchen" though "Mädchen" describes a female being....the article isnt the standard female article...
Really curious how this has been established.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Better yet: There's genus and sexus. It's 'das Mädchen' (neutral) but if you're referring to, for example, her shoes, you'd still use 'ihre Schuhe' (feminine) because it's a female.
Die Magd (original meaning: the maid) + -chen (diminituve) = Das Mädchen
Every word using the diminutives -chen or -lein is gender neutral.
Actually "Das Mädchen hat seine Schuhe angezogen" would be grammatically correct (other than "ihre Schuhe" in this context). It's only "ihre Schuhe" if you are referring to her instead of the girl.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
It makes sense when you consider it's the diminutive of 'Magd', which actually is feminine. However, the rule is diminutive are always neutral, much like you'd say 'die Dose' but 'das Döschen' in the diminutive.
Edit: scamander pls
Dagobert Duck
Member
The origins lay back around 500 years "Die Magd" which was something like a household helper" and if she was young it was "Das Mägdchen" and somehow it eveolded into "Mädchen" yet its still fascinating
https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Mädchen
Patrick Bateman
Member
Articles/Genders..... how the fuck should I know Tisch is masculine? there are thousands of words people know their genders only because "papa and mama used them correctly when I was little so I learned by listening"
Yeah great,
Löffel
Gabel
Messer
one is Das, one is Der and one is Die,
have fun guessing, foreigner!!
I just thought how do to describe it to someone not speaking German, but I actually can't. It's like you say, learning by listening..
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
I'm not sure people realise this is an old thread I bumped with the helpful YouTube channel I found, but we've talked about this earlier in the thread. It's largely pointless to try and make sense of gendered nouns as there are few rules to them, but here's a little image showing some guidelines that cover plenty of words posted earlier in the thread:Articles/Genders..... how the fuck should I know Tisch is masculine? there are thousands of words people know their genders only because "papa and mama used them correctly when I was little so I learned by listening"
Yeah great,
Löffel
Gabel
Messer
one is Das, one is Der and one is Die,
have fun guessing, foreigner!!
It gets messy but there are some patterns to it, at least:
That's actually because "Mädchen" is the diminutive ("Verniedlichung") of "die Maid" or "die Magd", and people started using "Mädchen" primarily. It was probably "die Magd" originally, as its diminutive, "das Mägdchen", is the closest to "das Mädchen". Diminutives always end on "-lein" or "-chen" and have the "das" article. For "der Junge" (boy) it would be "das Jungchen".
EDIT: Hmm, found this:
It gets messy but there are some patterns to it, at least:
It's missing Der Gerät though
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Pretty sure both work and I've heard people use them. The second example here doesn't sound very wrong, does it? The first one is fine too; I don't consider either incorrect or odd.
It's 'das Gerät'.
Dagobert Duck
Member
Its "der Gerät" unless you arent referring to that one video
its "das Gerät" obviously
As a native speaker you really just know the genders....so weird...
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