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[DonasaurusRex]

20 years??

whats the deal Texas??

just fire that babe and give her ..i dont even know it should be all on the professional side of things , the boy is of age.

 

[marrec]

20 years??

whats the deal Texas??

just fire that babe and give her ..i dont even know it should be all on the professional side of things , the boy is of age.

Your opinion on the matter is obviously well thought out.

ITT: someone pissed in marrec's cereal two mornings in a row

I'll have you know my jimmies remain unrustled.

 

[Evlar]

College students don't tend to make the transition from minor to adult while in college.

Around here they do.

 

[KHarvey16]

Maybe someone who finds the thought of a law making what this woman did illegal to be ridiculous can address this directly: assuming you find the school justified in firing her, why is a good idea to fire her?

 

[Evlar]

Maybe someone who finds the thought of a law making what this woman did illegal to be ridiculous can address this directly: assuming you find the school justified in firing her, why is a good idea to fire her?

Breach of professional ethics. Being unfit to teach does not equal being a menace to society.

 

[KHarvey16]

Breach of professional ethics. Being unfit to teach does not equal being a menace to society.

Define these professional ethics and why you think they are important to maintain.

 

[The C-Word]

Jesus these posts. Great debate here but fuck these last two I am not reading.

There are people here who clearly believe that an adult having sex with a teenager under their control is morally right and not predatory so I want to know how these morally correct non-predatory relationships start. Do they date how does it all go down?

No I do not find it morally right for an adult to have sex with a teenager under their control. But that is the difference in our logic, you assume that the teacher has manipulated and coerced the student into banging her. Where as I think that, though that certainly has happened before, that is probably not the case as the dude is 18 and probably fairly good at making his own decisions. Also using the word teenager in your statement makes it more inflammatory, but obviously there is more to it than a "teenager". If he had robbed somebody the news headline would read "18-year old man".

And I don't see why you find it so impossible for these two to simply have slowly grown feelings for one another until their educational relationship became ignorable. She is decently attractive, I assume he is decently attractive, they are both sexually developed; that is all there has to be for mutual human sexual attraction, regardless of professional or whatever relationship. Once again I understand the scenario you have presented and realize that it can totally happen in a student/teacher relationship, but I just don't see that as the case here.

I don't understand why people can recognize the need to fire someone while simultaneously being unable to consider the conduct illegal.

From my perspective 20 years jail time and losing your job are fairly different consequences but that's just me.

And just in general I don't really want to argue about whether anything is legal or illegal the fact of that matter is well established in the OP. I just want to talk about whether you find this application of the law moral, or whether the law should be changed.

 

[KHarvey16]

From my perspective 20 years jail time and losing your job are fairly different consequences but that's just me.

And just in general I don't really want to argue about whether anything is legal or illegal the fact of that matter is well established in the OP. I just want to talk about whether you find this application of the law moral, or whether the law should be changed.

20 years is the maximum sentence for the type of crime this is classified as. The trial has not even started and there is very little reason to suspect she'll go to jail for anywhere near 20 years if convicted.

The morality of the law is exactly what is being discussed.

 

[Evlar]

Define these professional ethics and why you think they are important to maintain.

Prohibiting sexual relations in the professions- such as between a lawyer and a client- is sensible because it limits the intimate relationship from interfering with the professional's motivation to do their job responsibly. Breach of this prohibition can and should be dealt with by the professional boards overseeing the profession. That is what they are for.

 

[KHarvey16]

Prohibiting sexual relations in the professions- such as between a lawyer and a client- is sensible because it limits the intimate relationship from interfering with the professional's motivation to do their job responsibly. Breach of this prohibition can and should be dealt with by the professional boards overseeing the profession. That is what they are for.

You believe the school is justified in firing the teacher solely because the relationship could effect her job performance regarding that student?

 

[The C-Word]

20 years is the maximum sentence for the type of crime this is classified as. The trial has not even started and there is very little reason to suspect she'll go to jail for anywhere near 20 years if convicted.

The morality of the law is exactly what is being discussed.

Okay well a month in jail is still vastly different, a felony on your record is quite different as well.

And I'm glad it is being discussed and I will tell you why I believe she should be fired but nothing else. All she did affected her job, the classroom, the students, the faculty, and it was seriously seriously unprofessional. Aside from the school environment, I believe she simply had a consensual sexual relationship with someone who is of the age of consent and nobody got psychologically traumatized or anything worth punishing. And as a legal matter it shouldn't make a difference where that relationship was developed or how, assuming it is consensual and both are of age.

 

[KHarvey16]

Okay well a month in jail is still vastly different, a felony on your record is quite different as well.

And I'm glad it is being discussed and I will tell you why I believe she should be fired but nothing else. All she did affected her job, the classroom, the students, the faculty, and it was seriously seriously unprofessional. Aside from the school environment, I believe she simply had a consensual sexual relationship with someone who is of the age of consent and nobody got psychologically traumatized or anything worth punishing. And as a legal matter it shouldn't make a difference where that relationship was developed or how, assuming it is consensual and both are of age.

Again the argument being made is that the student-teacher relationship prevents it from being consensual. The social, cultural and legal authority and role put on and played by teachers is such that a sexual relationship becomes an abuse of that position. The part they play in student's lives and the legal standing they have with respect to those students cuts them off from pursuing those kinds of intimate relationships. This is precisely why schools prohibit student-teacher relationships(on top of the obvious liability of course) and this reason serves just as well in determining that valid consent cannot be given.

 

[Jorok Goldblade]

She shouldn't have done it, but the punishment (20 yrs in prison) is excessive given the nature of the crime. She probably has a decent eight amendment case.

 

[SillyEskimo]

The punishment needs to go both ways. It's the only way to stop the madness.

Any 18yr old student that has sex with a teacher should be held equally responsible and expelled from school as well as face up to 20yrs in prison.

Attack this epidemic from both sides, I say!

 

[LProtag]

No I do not find it morally right for an adult to have sex with a teenager under their control. But that is the difference in our logic, you assume that the teacher has manipulated and coerced the student into banging her. Where as I think that, though that certainly has happened before, that is probably not the case as the dude is 18 and probably fairly good at making his own decisions. Also using the word teenager in your statement makes it more inflammatory, but obviously there is more to it than a "teenager". If he had robbed somebody the news headline would read "18-year old man".

And I don't see why you find it so impossible for these two to simply have slowly grown feelings for one another until their educational relationship became ignorable. She is decently attractive, I assume he is decently attractive, they are both sexually developed; that is all there has to be for mutual human sexual attraction, regardless of professional or whatever relationship. Once again I understand the scenario you have presented and realize that it can totally happen in a student/teacher relationship, but I just don't see that as the case here.

It complicates the professional relationship. Will favoritism play into it? Is he going to get good grades because she's afraid to score him how he deserves because they're in a romantic relationship?

It's too much of an important professional relationship to be allowed to be compromised by a romantic relationship.

Your students should never never never be considered potential mates.

 

[The C-Word]

Again the argument being made is that the student-teacher relationship prevents it from being consensual. The social, cultural and legal authority and role put on and played by teachers is such that a sexual relationship becomes an abuse of that position. The part they play in student's lives and the legal standing they have with respect to those students cuts them off from pursuing those kinds of intimate relationships. This is precisely why schools prohibit student-teacher relationships(on top of the obvious liability of course) and this reason serves just as well in determining that valid consent cannot be given.

Thats great and all but the argument is simply a citation of the law at hand. So its not consensual as a legal matter, but as a matter of reality it is. And I am not arguing what the law is or isn't, that is already established. I am arguing ethics which is why I state the fact that it was consensual. Maybe not a texan legal fact, but a life fact. And for everything else that is why I would have fired her. And all of those reasons do not serve to make consent invalid in my opinion but i really don't want to explain why but i will if you make me

 

[marrec]

Thats great and all but the argument is simply a citation of the law at hand. So its not consensual as a legal matter, but as a matter of reality it is. And I am not arguing what the law is or isn't, that is already established. I am arguing ethics which is why I state the fact that it was consensual. Maybe not a texan legal fact, but a life fact. And for everything else that is why I would have fired her. And all of those reasons do not serve to make consent invalid in my opinion but i really don't want to explain why but i will if you make me

You should really take the time and read my lengthy post explaining how it's not consensual simply because both parties say it was.

 

[The C-Word]

It complicates the professional relationship. Will favoritism play into it? Is he going to get good grades because she's afraid to score him how he deserves because they're in a romantic relationship?

It's too much of an important professional relationship to be allowed to be compromised by a romantic relationship.

Your students should never never never be considered potential mates.

I 100% agree with all of this but I assume since you are responding to my post that you imply that jail time is acceptable for this breach of a professional academic relationship.

If that is your opinion then that is where our heads butt

 

[KHarvey16]

Thats great and all but the argument is simply a citation of the law at hand. So its not consensual as a legal matter, but as a matter of reality it is. And I am not arguing what the law is or isn't, that is already established. I am arguing ethics which is why I state the fact that it was consensual. Maybe not a texan legal fact, but a life fact. And for everything else that is why I would have fired her. And all of those reasons do not serve to make consent invalid in my opinion but i really don't want to explain why but i will if you make me

No, my argument is precisely about the morality of it. The exploitation of that student-teacher relationship is illegal and immoral for the same reasons. Morally the consent cannot be valid. The concept of consent requires more than a simple yes, both legally and morally.

 

[The C-Word]

You should really take the time and read my lengthy post explaining how it's not consensual simply because both parties say it was.

Are you talking about how it was probably manipulative due to the teacher-student setup? Or are you talking about legal matters?

 

[marrec]

Are you talking about how it was probably manipulative due to the teacher-student setup? Or are you talking about legal matters?

Well, it's a bit more complicated then all that, but essentially yes. (Manipulate isn't the correct term, but whateves.)

 

[The C-Word]

No, my argument is precisely about the morality of it. The exploitation of that student-teacher relationship is illegal and immoral for the same reasons. Morally the consent cannot be valid. The concept of consent requires more than a simple yes, both legally and morally.

Your still assuming she exploited it without evidence. I have explained how a relationship could arise without the teacher using her position to capture the student into her clutches. Simple human attraction. Point me to one bit of fact in the story that shows she exploited her position as a teacher. If you are going to go off about the teacher being a role model and fragile malleable student minds then please don't bother because that really doesn't mean anything.

And yes the concept of consent also requires that both individuals are of appropriate age as a moral matter.

 

[KHarvey16]

Your still assuming she exploited it without evidence. I have explained how a relationship could arise without the teacher using her position to capture the student into her clutches. Simple human attraction. Point me to one bit of fact in the story that shows she exploited her position as a teacher. If you are going to go off about the teacher being a role model and fragile malleable student minds then please don't bother because that really doesn't mean anything.

And yes the concept of consent also requires that both individuals are of appropriate age as a moral matter.

No, the concept of consent legally(and yes, morally) involves ages for some of the same reason this situation cannot produce consent. Those who are young cannot fully comprehend the decision they are making. They do not possess the mental faculties to evaluate the information they need to evaluate and come to a conclusion that they fully understand. That is why consent is tied to age.

The relationship between a student and a teacher is such that proceeding to a sexual, intimate relationship can be nothing but an exploitation of the teacher's position, authority and cultural standing. This is why schools deem such relationships inappropriate! It is also why consent cannot be valid.

 

[The C-Word]

Well, it's a bit more complicated then all that, but essentially yes. (Manipulate isn't the correct term, but whateves.)

Well I'll give it a stab. Your talking about subtle manipulation and how their teacher student relationship makes it not like just a regular relationship between two sexually mature people, and therefore it is immoral. Idk how that gets the manipulation point across exactly, but my opinion is that the simple fact that a sexual relationship is between a student and a teacher at a HS does not make it immoral, they way in which it was created might though.

Influence and subtle coercion mean the same to me as manipulation but maybe i should hit up dictionary.com too lazy at the moment though. But I see no solid evidence in your posts showing that it was a relationship of such a controlling manner. You can state that a teacher student relationship means 100% guaranteed that some sort of predatory mind game was initiated by the teacher but i don't believe that and the facts don't support that. The teacher student thing makes that a possibility for a teacher, but a sexual relationship existing between two such people does not mean that has to be how it occurred.

So I get that if the teacher was using her authority to get the student in to bed then consent would be far iffier. But I don't get why just because they are teacher and student that makes consent impossible. As a legal matter, yes consent is clearly impossible between to such people in texas, but I think that is too much of a blanketed law and that in this case the consent should be legitimate.

I am tired, I tried.

 

[The C-Word]

No, the concept of consent legally(and yes, morally) involves ages for some of the same reason this situation cannot produce consent. Those who are young cannot fully comprehend the decision they are making. They do not possess the mental faculties to evaluate the information they need to evaluate and come to a conclusion that they fully understand. That is why consent is tied to age.

The relationship between a student and a teacher is such that proceeding to a sexual, intimate relationship can be nothing but an exploitation of the teacher's position, authority and cultural standing. This is why schools deem such relationships inappropriate! It is also why consent cannot be valid.

We are repeating ourselves so I am going to stop. Except on the point of young people not being able to perfectly make decisions well yes that is quite true i know that first-hand. But legally he is an adult who is supposedly able to think for himself. So clearly the law in this case is not directed at his age but at the student teacher thing.

 

[Gray Man]

20 Years seems harsh, but she does deserve to lose her job, and maybe a year or two in jail or even therapy.

Its not the age, its the fact that the person in question is in High School.

 

[KHarvey16]

We are repeating ourselves so I am going to stop. Except on the point of young people not being able to perfectly make decisions well yes that is quite true i know that first-hand. But legally he is an adult who is supposedly able to think for himself. So clearly the law in this case is not directed at his age but at the student teacher thing.

Exactly. But both are morally wrong and in this case illegal for similar reasons. Someone who is underage cannot consent because they lack information or the ability to effectively make use of that information. A normal student-teacher relationship in a normal setting can only lead to an unequal sexual relationship in which one party, the subordinate, likely does not posses the ability to properly evaluate the situation. But beyond that, and more importantly, progressing the standard student-teacher relationship to a sexual relationship can only be the result of an abuse of the special privileges and the unique role teachers play in the lives of their students. The leveraging of that, the corruption of that, is and should be both morally improper and illegal.

I think the more interesting debate and for me an unsettled debate is just how illegal it should be.

 

[The C-Word]

Exactly. But both are morally wrong and in this case illegal for similar reasons. Someone who is underage cannot consent because they lack information or the ability to effectively make use of that information. A normal student-teacher relationship in a normal setting can only lead to an unequal sexual relationship in which one party, the subordinate, likely does not posses the ability to properly evaluate the situation. But beyond that, and more importantly, progressing the standard student-teacher relationship to a sexual relationship can only be the result of an abuse of the special privileges and the unique role teachers play in the lives of their students. The leveraging of that, the corruption of that, is and should be both morally improper and illegal.

I think the more interesting debate and for me an unsettled debate is just how illegal it should be.

Right we have very different opinions on the matter.

 

[Zoe]

Around here they do.

Not in Texas. The vast majority of students enter college at 18 or older.