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[7DollarHagane]

This shit is repulsive and gross but it is a distant second concern to the thinly veiled real child pornography trade that goes on with pictures of kids at swimming pools and shit. Absolute human garbage taking photos of kids out in public wearing swimsuits or skirts and shit.

Someone here once posted an article about some of the stuff like this that goes on on 4chan or something and it made me so angry.

I understand that cartoon underage porn is not good but if they don't have the resources to crack down on and nearly eliminate the materials involving real children I don't think this deserves attention just yet.

 

[Shouta]

Yes, this is a slippery slope argument, but the reasoning is sound with regard to censorship, where judging offensiveness is necessarily subjective, placing art at the mercy of individuals' personal sensibilities.

I think that's part of the reason why the manga industry and artists are against this, in addition to freedom of speech. I also think that many are aware of how the general art trends in manga and anime have changed in the last 20-25 years or so. Even if artists and the companies agree with the sentiments behind the movement, accepting something that was written loosely could be a disaster to a huge industry there.

 

[Breakage]

Is this the end of third party Vita support?

This got me lol.

 

[Monocle]

pls change avatar to animey pic so i can avatar quote and dismiss your position wholesale without addressing it thnks

 

[G.ZZZ]

Basically, the arguments come down to 1) child pornography doesn't inhibit and may exacerbate a pedophile's need to molest and 2) child pornography(drawn and real) is used by pedophiles to draw in children for predation.
.

That isn't really an argument for a ban however, because nothing has actually been banned because of improper use/abuse or circumnstantial risks deriving from it, only regulated. America still has no background check on guns for crying out loud.
The already quoted SCOTUS decision also seems to go in that direction:

The Court stated that "an offer to provide or request to receive virtual child pornography is not prohibited by the statute. A crime is committed only when the speaker believes or intends the listener to believe that the subject of the proposed transaction depicts real children. It is simply not true that this means 'a protected category of expression [will] inevitably be suppressed,' post, at 13. Simulated child pornography will be as available as ever."

Generally things get banned when society as a whole percieve that their benefit is greater than their supposed harm done. That is why smoking is not outright banned (and homosexuality was), because we value that the percieved damage (passive smoke and healthcare costs) is less than the freedom of people to smoke and enjoy smoking, even if they do nothing but kill themselves slowly and burden our healthcare system.

If we really want to protect child from paedophilies, what about recognize those people as humans and give them mental help to control their urges? Treating them like beasts isn't making them disappearing anytime soon and make it impossible for them to come out and for us to control them.
Also, what about poor kids? The vast majority of abused kids are those who live in disadvantageous social situations, where they can get straight bought by rich adults. Why aren't we talking more about that? It's in the article of OP too. Banning "icky drawn stuff" seems just a way to appease to masses and do actually very little for actual people if anything.

This will be my last post on this topic. I find that in general discussions here (and anywhere else, not a shot on NeoGAF, just on people in general) are always fixated on the most irrilevant of things in, actual, real problems, and it's always so hard to have any meaningful discussion about them because of the preconceived ideas about how those problems should be confronted, and never actually solved. It's all ideological, never pratical, never for the actual people. Just smoke and mirrors.

 

[Ventara]

Eh, real child porn is obviously really bad and should be illegal, and it'd be great if drawings could stop, but actually making drawings illegal seems like it would be tricky. Where would the line be? Would it not apply to many other topics? I feel giving children a better sex education like what Canada is doing would be a better step.

Oh, and everyone applauding kswiston's post is now on my shit list.

Spoiler

Okay, I laughed. I'm so sorry, Vita. I still love you.

 

[Empyrean Heaven]

Bubububu...what about Gaffer's manga waifus and Yaoi fangirls?

 

[Shotgun Kiss]

A lot of people here are saying this is a good thing due to manga child pornography having no good reason to exist.

A fictional representation of child pornography has no victims whatsoever, so it does no harm, and there is a market/audience for it, so it clearly does have a reason to exist.

You and I might find it repulsive, but things should not be outlawed simply because the majority cannot comprehend it. An act should only be outlawed if there is a victim. Otherwise we're talking about a thought crime.

The stigma for pedophilia is wildly out of control. "Pedophila" means a sexual attraction to children. There's nothing inherently evil about that. Nobody chooses who or what they are attracted to. It is acting upon those desires in a way that exploits or abuses children that is vile. There is a world of difference between the two, yet society in general refuses to acknowledge this. The fact that the word "pedophile" is automatically assumed to refer to somebody who actually abuses children (as opposed to somebody who merely has a sexual attraction to them) is proof of this.

For clarity, for the rest of my post, I'll be referring to people who are attracted to children as "pedophiles", and people who act on these urges as "child abusers".

There are many pedophiles who would never dream of acting upon their urges. Some are good people, some are in healthy relationships, and some have a good sense of right and wrong. They didn't choose what they're sexually attracted to. And for some, it's basically a fetish, but not an all-consuming one that they are incapable of controlling. Many people have some kind of fetish, but they don't lose control and start trying to rape others who align with said fetish. But because pedophiles are stigmatised to such an extreme extent, they are viewed as no different from child abusers, so they have to keep it a secret from everybody out of fear. Some may feel pangs of temptation, but they don't dare seek any kind of help/support/therapy, as to do so means being vilified, and potentially putting their lives in danger. This is dangerous, as this is what can potentially lead to escalation, as many do not get help they could benefit from if it *is* all-consuming for them.

Some people will argue that manga child pornography encourages real instances of child abuse, but I don't believe this at all, as that's like saying furries viewing furry porn will then go out and have sex with real animals.

I find the thought of manga child pornography, furry porn, and My Little Pony stuff all extremely discomforting, but I'm not so closed-minded as to call for a ban on any of it just because of that. There are some people out there who like them, nobody is being hurt, and there is zero evidence to suggest that it encourages any kind of "escalation".

If I'm mistaken, and evidence does exist, please feel free to point it out to me, and my entire stance here will change, but otherwise, this is a thought crime, and counterproductive, as this kind of thing leads to pedophiles supressing urges (rather than seeking help) that can later manifest in far worse ways.



(Christ, typing all of that on my phone was a pain)

 

[RedSwirl]

When it comes to manga, I think the manga industry protested against the last attempt to do this because they thought the proposed version of he loli ban was to vague, to the point where police had a lot of discretion in defining what was illegal. I would personally like for some kind of line to be drawn because some of that shit truly is fucked up, but it's definitely a slippery issue and probably not easy to enforce. There would definitely need to be some kind of "scientific or artistic merit" test. I don't know if Japan has an equivalent of this, but a lot of the older, famous manga some people are worried about would probably pass such a test.

Another big thing to trip over though is the question of what actually defines a minor when you're talking about cartoons and comics. It's sort of a "I know when I see it" type of deal. Virtual characters very often don't have explicitly stated ages and the way they look can be really ambiguous or at best based on social cues. Anime and manga in particular tend to be heavily centered around high school students or characters wearing school uniforms, which would potentially indicate them being anywhere between 14 and 18 years old. What do you do about fan art that takes a character normally depicted as a minor and re-imagines them as an adult (like, I don't know, the main cast of Sailor Moon or Ranma 1/2)?

 

[SenorArdilla]

Bubububu...what about Gaffer's manga waifus and Yaoi fangirls?

SHIT! I JUST DREW SOMETHING FOR THAT SOUTH PARK EPISODE! SHIT! SHIT! SHIT!

Ah well.

 

[Doctor Doom]

This shit is repulsive and gross but it is a distant second concern to the thinly veiled real child pornography trade that goes on with pictures of kids at swimming pools and shit. Absolute human garbage taking photos of kids out in public wearing swimsuits or skirts and shit.

How could that be criminalized? it couldn't be mere possession or else parents, school officials and professional photographers would be penalized. It would have to be based on intent, and again even if distatesful wouldn't this basically make it illegal to take photos at public pools and beaches if there were any children in the picture?

If I'm mistaken, and evidence does exist, please feel free to point it out to me, and my entire stance here will change, but otherwise, this is a thought crime, and counterproductive, as this kind of thing leads to pedophiles supressing urges (rather than seeking help) that can later manifest in far worse ways.

It is likely that hate speech might promote or increase criminal activity, but that is no reason to heavily criminalize it.

I keep hearing about a supposed “hate speech” exception to the First Amendment, or statements such as, “This isn’t free speech, it’s hate speech,” or “When does free speech stop and hate speech begin?” But there is no hate speech exception to the First Amendment. Hateful ideas (whatever exactly that might mean) are just as protected under the First Amendment as other ideas. One is as free to condemn Islam — or Muslims, or Jews, or blacks, or whites, or illegal aliens, or native-born citizens — as one is to condemn capitalism or Socialism or Democrats or Republicans.-link

There is a difference between freedom of expression and corrupt individuals performing criminal activities.

 

[Monocle]

I think that's part of the reason why the manga industry and artists are against this, in addition to freedom of speech. I also think that many are aware of how the general art trends in manga and anime have changed in the last 20-25 years or so. Even if artists and the companies agree with the sentiments behind the movement, accepting something that was written loosely could be a disaster to a huge industry there.

If there were some way that a ban of only the most explicitly vulgar content could be enforced, a respectable if still arguable case could be made in its favor, but I honestly doubt it's possible to censor on an industry-wide or national scale without opening the door to massive overreach and good old fashioned incompetence.

 

[Baleoce]

Is this the end of third party Vita support?

Haha xD

 

[Proelite]

I am on the side that argues that a clear line should be drawn on what is illegal and legal in manga before the move to censorship can be considered.

The line needs to be far less strict than anything else though, and any grounds for banning such contents needs to be backed on evidence that they directly contribute to harm of children.

Otherwise it's just thought policing.

 

[Cipherr]

finally. shit is weird.

It really is. Anime in some ways has equally weird shit along those lines, and I really dislike it. You have an extreme uphill battle convincing me that getting rid of the CLEARLY super suggestive, and downright blatant 10,000 year old 'dragon' little girls in revealing clothing would harm anyone. Shit is ridiculous.

Is this the end of third party Vita support?

 

[besada]

Please try to stay on topic. Any more deflection from the subject under discussion under the guise of "there are more important things to discus" is frowned on. If you feel a different topic needs discussion, feel free to start a thread about it, but this thread has an actual topic.

 

[7DollarHagane]

How could that be criminalized? it couldn't be mere possession or else parents, school officials and professional photographers would be penalized. It would have to be based on intent, and again even if distatesful wouldn't this basically make it illegal to take photos at public pools and beaches if there were any children in the picture?

From what I understand these areas of 4chan and other sites are very clear about their intent to get sexual arousal from the photos and the situations they are placed in.

I guess you can never fully eliminate this stuff but the way the article talked about it made it seem almost not distinguishable from child porn. I guess its a lot like the manga/anime thing. You can't have the law determine someone's intent.

I guess this thing probably is better handled by retailers and buyers refusing to stock the material than by making it illegal.

 

[Partition]

How about you ask them to ban all those disgusting videos with real children before worrying about drawings that harm absolutely no one?

This will probably change nothing anyways. I don't know how they'd be able to regulate fan work at all.

Basically, it's a bad idea to even think about banning art.

Inb4 avatar quote like usual.

 

[Crash Station]

But...



I do think they need to do something first about those seedy "idol groups" and "artsy photos and videos" before going for the creepy manga/anime/games but hey, I take what I get.

It's absolutely a factor, in which case what we need is more research. We need to know if manga like this has absolutely no value as an outlet, in which case we have to then figure out the reason behind the drop in child sexual abuse cases when it was first introduced. One possible explanation is it isn't even read by a pedophile majority but rather people with any number of relevant fetishes that may have a power slant to it (something most child sexual abuse cases are committed by rather than actual pedophiles). At that point, there's a million directions things can go in and it just becomes a mess all around in terms of if the benefits without question outweigh the negatives.

Point is, we need more data.

I am on the side that argues that a clear line should be drawn on what is illegal and legal in manga before the move to censorship can be considered.

The line needs to be far less strict than anything else though, and any grounds for banning such contents needs to be backed on evidence that they directly contribute to harm of children.

Otherwise it's just thought policing.

If it's a drawing, it's thought policing regardless. What someone then does with that drawing (shit like grooming) is of course not.

 

[Aaronology]

I've decapitated, mutilated, tortured, burned alive, drowned, ripped apart and shot to death fake women, fake men, fake children, fake cats and fake dogs throughout my gaming history. There are people who would be absolutely disgusted and appalled by a single match of me playing MKX or an hour in GTA.

That I find child porn in manga disturbing doesn't inhibit me from firmly believing banning it is wrong. I've zero conflict in saying that when it comes to thought policing.

 

[Doctor Doom]

I am on the side that argues that a clear line should be drawn on what is illegal and legal in manga before the move to censorship can be considered.

The line needs to be far less strict than anything else though, and any grounds for banning such contents needs to be backed on evidence that they directly contribute to harm of children.

Otherwise it's just thought policing.

The thing is say misogynistic speech, writings, drawings. misandrist speech, writings, drawings. ageist speech, writings, drawings. Racist speech, writings, drawings. hatespeech in general. These likely contribute or promote harmful relations and likely actions against certain groups. Even if such speech were to be shown to increase harm done to said groups, I doubt many in the U.S. would be willing to destroy the first amendment to criminalize such forms of expression.

I personally dislike censorship. Penalize the commission of crimes, but do not abolish things like freedom of speech.

Sending people to jail for having one or more drawings, whatever they may be is ridiculous, and is no different from being thought police.

 

[jmood88]

I don't know, I'd rather pedophiles satisfy their urges with "extreme child manga porn" than actual cp - or even worse actual children.

Is there any evidence supporting this? Maybe it's just me but porn isn't a substitute for actual sex. I'm not any less likely to have sex because I can go find videos of naked women online.

 

[Crash Station]

Is there any evidence supporting this? Maybe it's just me but porn isn't a substitute for actual sex. I'm not any less likely to have sex because I can go find videos of naked women online.

Well, there's definitely far less rape since porn has been introduced, something supported by science.

That being said, I believe stuff like paraphilia-based porn supposedly increases the chances of acting on it. Human psychology is weird.

 

[Skinpop]

If you are defending the right of this stuff to exist, you are either defending child pornography (which is probably illegal where you live right now), or you are misunderstanding what material is being referenced.

or maybe we have the idea that banning certain types of drawings leave room for too much interpretation and is dangerously close to thought crime. add that it's a victimless "crime" and I don't think banning is a good idea at all.

I find these drawings as disgusting as anyone else, but I'll defend the right to think and draw whatever you want. I would be fine with banning selling these kind of drawings if it could be implemented in a good way but there are so many ways this can infringe on legitimate arts of work that I'm skeptical of even that.

 

[Zaptruder]

You want to lose your rights? Because this is how you lose your rights.

Allow politicians to slowly chip away at the rights of its citizenry over things that are largely unpopular in the current social more.

Repeat over a long expanse of time. As social mores change, laws don't.

Of course they don't have to enforce the laws, and frequently they won't.

Rather what it does is allow them to use a variety of issues to impugn and silence their enemies arbitrarily.


Unfortunately in our modern world... morality is an issue that has been thoroughly muddied. People don't even understand it's true nature anymore. Without that solid understanding, we can have no clear recourse to base principles in determining the moral legitimacy of edge cases on a wide scale basis.

 

[Crash Station]

If you are defending the right of this stuff to exist, you are either defending child pornography (which is probably illegal where you live right now), or you are misunderstanding what material is being referenced.

Didn't see this before and I definitely do not agree. I really don't acknowledge something that happens in a fictional world as comparable to its real world counterpart, at least as far as terminology goes. It's why I wouldn't call killing people in GTA or Hatred or whatever murder. The material referenced could be the most twisted, extreme shit out there and I would still have this position.

Whatever happens externally (as in not involved with the creation or content of the art itself) is another discussion entirely.

 

[Romars202129]

Yep. It would apply to stuff like Berserk, when it should be focusing on weird ass shit like Hot House.

Berserk is the one thing giving me any pause over this... that said, I don't think the anime actually showed any rape, child or otherwise[directly] and it managed to be horrifying as hell anyways.
Yeah, let's take the garbage out Japan.

 

[Rebel Leader]

Will this change Super interesting darkness?

 

[Mostmanlyman]

You want to lose your rights? Because this is how you lose your rights.

Allow politicians to slowly chip away at the rights of its citizenry over things that are largely unpopular in the current social more.

Repeat over a long expanse of time. As social mores change, laws don't.

Of course they don't have to enforce the laws, and frequently they won't.

Rather what it does is allow them to use a variety of issues to impugn and silence their enemies arbitrarily.


Unfortunately in our modern world... morality is an issue that has been thoroughly muddied. People don't even understand it's true nature anymore. Without that solid understanding, we can have no clear recourse to base principles in determining the moral legitimacy of edge cases on a wide scale basis.

Yeah I agree with you on morality being the issue. That's why I'm always scared on the crazy PC crowd, where you can't say anything that can trigger someone and if you do you are censored immediately.
It is very iffy talking about what should censored and what should not be censored.

 

[Cday]

This person doesn't seem to discriminate between pictures of real children and moe blob drawings. I can't believe the real posed children shit is a thing that's allowed, but people should be allowed to draw whatever they want.

 

[Crash Station]

Will this change Super interesting darkness?

Nothing is going to happen. Yabuki himself could probably prevent any laws from being put into place. Shueisha wouldn't accept it.

 

[Zing]

If the last thread is anything to go by, this could get ugly fast.

I guess you missed all the posts written before you clicked "post". From the very first post on we had ignorant replies.

I don't really understand why drawings of naked people need banned while movies and video games with murder as the primary focus are perfectly fine.

 

[FyreWulff]

If it's purely the artist's imagination, thought crime.

Someone I know who was raped as a child was re-victimized because a local creeper used them as a model for their naked children art because they thought said victim "would enjoy it because they were sexually awoken and deserved to have their sexuality celebrated".

Victims of childhood rape tend to see no value in depicting children in sexual acts, no matter the medium, because some idiots want to view us as objective but-my-free-speech "collateral damage" bullet points instead of people with emotions and experiences. There is zero, none, nada, zilch, complete absence of any benefit of depicting someone that is a child in a sexual situation. Ban it and arrest those involved in the production. There is no "idea" to it. Drawn, ASCII art, I don't give a fuck. Burn it all. There is no "other view point". There is no debate to be had. Stop defending child rape in any form and improve the world for everyone and harm nobody in the process.

 

[rhandino]

I guess you missed all the posts written before you clicked "post". From the very first post on we had ignorant replies.

I don't really understand why drawings of naked people need banned while movies and video games with murder as the primary focus are perfectly fine.

Because not even those movies and videogames where murder is the primary focus let you do that to children...

 

[LouisaFerre]

Someone I know who was raped as a child was re-victimized because a local creeper used them as a model for their naked children art because they thought said victim "would enjoy it because they were sexually awoken and deserved to have their sexuality celebrated".

Victims of childhood rape tend to see no value in depicting children in sexual acts, no matter the medium, because some idiots want to view us as objective but-my-free-speech "collateral damage" bullet points instead of people with emotions and experiences. There is zero, none, nada, zilch, complete absence of any benefit of depicting someone that is a child in a sexual situation. Ban it and arrest those involved in the production. There is no "idea" to it. Drawn, ASCII art, I don't give a fuck. Burn it all. There is no "other view point". There is no debate to be had. Stop defending child rape in any form and improve the world for everyone and harm nobody in the process.

So would you also be in favor of banning pornography that fetishizes the rape of adults?

Why not just ban the use of a real person's likeness without their consent?

 

[Einchy]

I always wondered , does Ranma 1/2 count as child porn since they show a lot of 16 year old boobies?

I loved that in Mexico they didn't give a shit about censoring the boobs.

6 year old thanks you, lazy Mexican TV stations.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Because not even those movies and videogames where murder is the primary focus let you do that to children...

I hope you don't ever watch Salo

 

[SixMachine]

Berserk is the one thing giving me any pause over this... that said, I don't think the anime actually showed any rape, child or otherwise[directly] and it managed to be horrifying as hell anyways.
Yeah, let's take the garbage out Japan.

There is always implied stuff but in general, manga usually has the "edgier" stuff. I remember reading Wolf Guy, and it generally was interesting up until a certain point

Spoiler

Basically the female love interest (well she is a teacher so she might be too old for this discussion, but there are minors depicted in sexual acts in the manga) was taken captive by the bad guy and gang raped for basically 2 dozen chapters or some shit. I dunno it felt like forever but I dropped it around this time because it literally just felt like it was going nowhere just to show her getting gang raped from chapter to chapter. Honestly, if he only used a chapter or 2 of her getting raped, it got the point across and made you feel that the main protagonist had to hurry and get his act together, but it meandered on it too long and felt like the manga writer was going for the shock value way too hard.

Even though such extreme acts in fiction are used to get an emotion out of the reader, I think they should exist and the artist has every right to deploy it's use within fiction. I don't like it and if it disturbs me, but that is the whole point usually. For example that scene in Game of Thrones with Khal Drogo and Daeneryus was very disturbing and basically fits within the scope of this topic, but it carried a tone across and elicited a reaction from me and other watchers/readers of that scene. Berserk also made me feel sorry because

Spoiler

Guts was raped when he was a child, and I remember those manga panels in my head when I think of those scenes. It made me feel sorry for him because you can see that it is something that he carried throughout his life, it especially effected how he interacted with Casca.

Hellsing also basically had panels

Spoiler

which showed Alucard raped as a child. You can connect the dots and see why he really wasn't a fan of God, and it juxtaposed the fact that he is a strong immortal after his death but during life he was just a mortal.

I believe this was also in Hellsing Ultimate but I didn't get a chance to watch all of it.

 

[PSqueak]

I always wondered , does Ranma 1/2 count as child porn since they show a lot of 16 year old boobies?

I think this is a situation where cultural context matters, nudes in ranma were never sexual in nature and japanese culture is more lax about non sexual nudes, child characters in dragon ball also were shown naked all the time in non sexual situations and it was no big deal, think of that scene in the first superman movie, toddler superman is briefly shown completely naked when Ma and Pa Kent find him and it was no problem, culturally it's acceptable.

And it's not just japan btw, French comics show underage nudes all the time in non sexual context, like "Lou!" has a strip that show the main character (12 at the time) fully naked while getting ready for a bath. Lou! is a comicbook intended for little girls.

I think Ranma 1/2 is safe. Other modern animes, not so much.

 

[Aske]

Banning drawings is utter madness. Being creeped out by some dirty scribbles is not a good reason to quash freedom of expression.

Child porn requires a child. If an artistic pedophile dreams about sex with a preteen, it doesn't matter whether he describes this dream in writing, sings an explicit song, paints a scene in oils, sculpts a diorama out of oatmeal, or - gasp - draws a filthy comicbook. No child is harmed by these expressions of his perversion.

We don't punish people for sketching out their homicidal fantasies, no matter how explicit, even if the artwork is designed to fetishize or encourage abhorrent acts. This is because we're all keenly aware that thinking bad thoughts does not equate to doing bad things. Let's not let disgust bypass logic when it comes to drafting legislation.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

This discussion is always so weird. It's always them referring to child prostitution and child exploitation, which always gets shot down because it doesn't have anything to do with drawings, it's a victimless crime. Definitely protect kids, get rid of the real stuff and the stuff that falls into the loopholes, but there's no kids to protect in a manga because it's just ink on a page. Just like how you don't get convicted of murder for killing someone in a game, it's just code in a file, no one was actually hurt. I get the knee-jerk reaction to the idea because, well... obviously, but anyway you think about it always ends up to them enforcing thought crimes and that's just not an appealing precedent for the future imo.

Spoiler

I've never been avatar-quoted, will this'll be the day?!

 

[hipbabboom]

There are so many problems in this world that I think people who want to make the world a better place start at home. The UN is not Japan and does not understand the culture. Because the UN is not Japan, it should not try to improve Japan. The UN is the world and is the Earth so why not make its own community better and go change the moon or Mars. It should leave Japanese maters to Japanese people. People outside of Japan may not be able to control their sexual urges when consuming Japanese culture so they should not read Japanese products. If there is no real problem with this inside of Japan then people who are outside of Japan and have problems with this should turn off their internet.



Granted many societies, including Japan, try to prohibit material that may contribute to deviance so it boggles my mind at just how grey the human mind makes areas regarding expression. It's like the direction that its first argued from will, almost always, permanently set the tone. The law takes action to prevent deviance where intent can be established save for the cases where people can argue its not intent but a form of artistic expression. I don't want this stuff to exist and I don't think very highly of the people who consume it right to exist but I do think before we ban things like this (and oh boy should it be banned as far as I'm concerned), we arm ourselves with evidence rather than simply disgust.

 

[Gonzo The Great]

Banning drawings is utter madness. Being creeped out by some dirty scribbles is not a good reason to quash freedom of expression.

Child porn requires a child. If an artistic pedophile dreams about sex with a preteen, it doesn't matter whether he describes this dream in writing, sings an explicit song, paints a scene in oils, sculpts a diorama out of oatmeal, or - gasp - draws a filthy comicbook. No child is harmed by these expressions of his perversion.

We don't punish people for sketching out their homicidal fantasies, no matter how explicit, even if the artwork is designed to fetishize or encourage abhorrent acts. This is because we're all keenly aware that thinking bad thoughts does not equate to doing bad things. Let's not let disgust bypass logic when it comes to drafting legislation.

Great post, I couldn't agree more.

 

[Barajas_201]

I loved that in Mexico they didn't give a shit about censoring the boobs.

6 year old thanks you, lazy Mexican TV stations.

Dude what are you talking about? Ranma is the reason why there is no anime on TV anymore precisely because of that and it was censored!

I don't agree with censoring art even if its wrong or immoral because that's how governments slowly take away freedom of expression rights.

 

[Aaronology]

Because not even those movies and videogames where murder is the primary focus let you do that to children...

Completely false. A few minutes with google and you'll find endless lists of games where child killing is present. I got the ChildKiller title in Fallout, if you want to start there.

See, it's a simple matter to me. Murder is wrong, right? Regardless if it's a man, woman or child, killing another human being is a heinous act and one of the worst things a person can do to another. And yet I revel in the depictions and imaginary acts of it as a gamer and absolutely reject the idea this type of media needs to be banned. You're on GAF, so I'm going to assume you agree. How do you remain consistent with that viewpoint while damning depictions of other repugnant, morally reprehensible acts?

I am being completely earnest and non-argumentative when I say do not understand and would appreciate someone explaining this to me.

 

[Magni]

What's the point of criminalizing drawings? Awful, tasteless drawings, sure, but they're drawings nonetheless.

Who's the victim here?

 

[dity]

Honestly my position after many a year of thinking is currently:

1. It shouldn't be banned, but instead heavily regulated.

2. Get it and other borderline drawn child porn off of easily accessible store shelves.

I've read numerous stories now about pedophiles using it to groom children, making it seem ok via how easy it is to get and how presentable and easy to understand the content is for kids. It's almost used as a sort of guide. Yes normal porn can be used for this too, but that doesn't involve a representation of a child.

That's my opinion despite the issue being close to my heart thanks to my own experiences as a child in relation to grooming.

 

[outunderthestars]

Anime/Manga GAF incoming?

Oh come on, there is no way anime/manga GAF could run.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

is everyone who made stupid gay smut of two boys for that south park episode going to jail now

 

[GamingOblivion]

This would have no legal basis whatsoever. First, thought crime isn't something envisioned in modern legal systems. Pedophilia isn't accepted because childs can't consent and consequentially they can't have sex or anything (with exceptions of both minors and whatever). There is no consent dilemma in cartoons. Banning it would be more alike at banning omosexuality, where adults do things in full consent and it's still banned because it goes against "morality". The gateway argument make no sense either; it made no sense for drugs, it made no sense for games that promote killings, and it make no sense here.

Second, you have no ways to define a child in stylized drawings. What define a child? Being short? I just give it long ears and call it an halfling. Pubes? Plenty of adults shave. Small tits? Plenty of women have no tits. Even if such a ban went in effect, the only thing that would change is that everything would be considered done by adults cosplaying. Sorta like "this work is fiction" and whatever.

There's way more ground to ban actual children models. That has proven disastrously effects on a lot of children's psiche, and i don't think a parent giving consent is a strong enough rebuttal, since we ban most dangerous things from childrens no matter the opinion of the parent. There's a reason that kind of thing is not done anywhere else in the world but japan afaik.

I agree with this 100%. I'm sorry, but if they ban the animated depictions of children, what are they going to turn to? If everything is banned, nothing is going to stop them from obtaining real child pornography and then harm an actual child.

The attitudes expressed in this thread are ridiculous. If anyone of any sort objects to this banning, they are basically labeled a pedophile or someone obsessed with anime. I figured NeoGAF would be good for these types of conversations but I guess I was wrong.