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[Two Words]

If you ban drawings of children being sexualized/sexually abused, how is that any different than banning drawings of adults being sexually/physically abused?

 

[PAULINK]

leave the vita alone

 

[Japanmanx3]

Is this the end of third party Vita support?

Best 5th post GAF will ever have.

 

[TacticalHotdog]

Even if loli porn were to be banned, they'd probably find ways around it by saying that everyone is an adult. Reminds me of this:

 

[CriterionDog]

Is this the end of third party Vita support?

REKT

 

[CadetMahoney]

The elephant in the room is why it isn't currently banned anyway. Why is it permissable currently?

Is this the end of third party Vita support?

straight for the jugular.

 

[DCharlie]

>>何歳ですか
>1X歳です

(clenches teeth, looks uncomfortable)

 

[Mental Atrophy]

I don't think it's a good idea to ban any sort of drawing or the sale of it, no matter how perverse it is. And frankly, I find it gross and disturbing that so many people here think it's appropriate to ban speech.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Pretty sure there are more quotes of the vita post than posts actually discussing the topic lol

 

[ricelord]

Is this the end of third party Vita support?

are you trying to kill me sir.

 

[BocoDragon]

I thought we were against child porn because children were actually harmed.

If no one is harmed, then you're just against the depiction of an illegal act?

But what about all the murder in fiction? Seems like we should ban slasher flicks in the same breath.

 

[RM8]

Is this the end of third party Vita support?

Masterful.

 

[chiimisu]

There are REAL children being abused and sold under the mask of "gravure idols" and "idols" in general.
There is REAL borderline-porn material of them being freely sold at creepy Akihabara stores.

...BUT NOOO LET'S BAN MANGA PORN
IT WENT SO WELL A FEW YEARS AGO, AFTER ALL

I just don't get it.

 

[Slaythe]

Wonder if that would be accepted.

 

[Beren the Empty-Handed]

Is this the end of third party Vita support?

 

[dity]

There are REAL children being abused and sold under the mask of "gravure idols" and "idols" in general.
There is REAL borderline-porn material of them being freely sold at creepy Akihabara stores.

...BUT NOOO LET'S BAN MANGA PORN
IT WENT SO WELL A FEW YEARS AGO, AFTER ALL

I just don't get it.

You know, I wouldn't be surprised if junior idol content is used as reference material for those manga. Think about it.

 

[daniels]

This would have no legal basis whatsoever. First, thought crime isn't something envisioned in modern legal systems. Pedophilia isn't accepted because childs can't consent and consequentially they can't have sex or anything (with exceptions of both minors and whatever). There is no consent dilemma in cartoons. Banning it would be more alike at banning omosexuality, where adults do things in full consent and it's still banned because it goes against "morality". The gateway argument make no sense either; it made no sense for drugs, it made no sense for games that promote killings, and it make no sense here.

Second, you have no ways to define a child in stylized drawings. What define a child? Being short? I just give it long ears and call it an halfling. Pubes? Plenty of adults shave. Small tits? Plenty of women have no tits. Even if such a ban went in effect, the only thing that would change is that everything would be considered done by adults cosplaying. Sorta like "this work is fiction" and whatever.

There's way more ground to ban actual children models. That has proven disastrously effects on a lot of children's psiche, and i don't think a parent giving consent is a strong enough rebuttal, since we ban most dangerous things from childrens no matter the opinion of the parent. There's a reason that kind of thing is not done anywhere else in the world but japan afaik.

.

Shit is creepy but not as creepy as thought crime/ moral police that punishes people for the victim less "crime" of making creepy drawings that hurt no one.

 

[Walpurgis]

Is this the end of third party Vita support?

Damn it! I read the OP and did a CTRL+F Vita.

 

[chiimisu]

You know, I wouldn't be surprised if junior idol content is used as reference material for those manga. Think about it.

I think that's true. But pressuring some lone doujin artists

Spoiler

not that I'm justifying them, what they're doing is equally wrong

is probably much easier than pressuring some underworld/yakuza structures that gravure/idol business most likely belongs to :\ They won't give up such a steady source for income that easily.

 

[Chariot]

The elephant in the room is why it isn't currently banned anyway. Why is it permissable currently?

I don't know if you mean lolicon or gravure idols, but for the latter it's probably that Japan has weirdly specific laws that make it far too easy to get around them. This is where the weird parts of hentai spawned from in the first place by the way. Japan made a law against pornography and for some reason specifically banned genitals, pubic hair and adults. Thus crafty people started to draw tentacles, robots, aliens, monsters, children and leaving the pubic areas white. It's a quite fascinating backfire.

 

[CadetMahoney]

I don't know if you mean lolicon or gravure idols, but for tge latter it's probably that Japan has weirdly specific laws that make it far too easy to get around. This is where the weird parts of hentsi spawned from in the first place by the way. Japan made a law against porn and for some reason specifically banned genitals, pubic hair and adults. Thus crafty people started to paint tentacles, robots, aliens, monsters, children and leaving the pubic areas white. It's a quite fascinating backfire.

makes sense, good reply.

 

[TatteredHat]

The whole underage gravure idol business is something that should be dealt with as soon as possible, it likely has long-lasting psychological effects on the children involved.

I wouldn't support a ban on anything drawn, though.

 

[Nightbird]

Pretty sure there are more quotes of the vita post than posts actually discussing the topic lol

It's easier to laugh about a joke than to discuss this matter

 

[KazenY2J]

Is this the end of third party Vita support?

That's implying it had it to begin with!

 

[Jintor]

I thought we were against child porn because children were actually harmed.

If no one is harmed, then you're just against the depiction of an illegal act?

But what about all the murder in fiction? Seems like we should ban slasher flicks in the same breath.

There are some possible permutations on the harm factor regarding loli stuff. I recall reports out there that abusers would show this kinda stuff to kids to demonstrate that it was 'normal' or to say kinda 'this is how you should act' sorta thing. It's tricky.

But yeah, the gravure/junior idol stuff is waaaaaaaaaaay creepier imho

 

[Deleted member 125677]

I think it should be banned honestly. There are more important things in life than artistic freedom. Even if it's just drawings and animations it plays a part in normalizing the sexualization (on adults premises) of children, and as Besada pointed out earlier, studies show that enjoying child pornography (real or animated) could be linked to actual child abuse in at least two ways.

A ban would be a limitation on the freedom of expression that I'm ready to make (as with limitations on hate speech, racism etc.) for a greater cause: protecting children from potential abuse.

 

[Sölf]

I am all for a ban only to see what Japan can come up this time. Last time it was tentacle porn.

But in all honesty, I am in the camp that thinks banning manga is not the way to start, but instead going after the (pre)teen gravure idol model area. And yeah, where exactly would it stop? What's extreme, rape or only sex or anything sexual? What if they wouldn't just stop at images, but would just go after everything? Even serious stuff like Game of Thrones could get banned then, with many of the younger characters basically still being children. And as someone already mentioned, we have stuff like Berserk and many other serious but older shows, what about them?

 

[jabuseika]

-

 

[dity]

Some people are so willing to take an authoritarian government, for the "greater good".

For who's "greater good"?

The "greater good" criminalizes and dehumanizes individuals. It allows for the distortion of morality in that it disguises the suffering and removal of real individuals, as a fictitious healing in society. The "greater good" that would imprison real humans for having free thoughts.

Were do you stop for the "greater good"?

You can make an argument for a ban on almost anything, if it's for the "greater good".

Some really good arguments "for the greater good" in our history have led to genocide.

Dude did you just compare banning loli porn to the holocaust?

 

[Shaanyboi]

If you ban drawings of children being sexualized/sexually abused, how is that any different than banning drawings of adults being sexually/physically abused?

Because someone is jacking off to children?

 

[jabuseika]

-

 

[dity]

Don't put words in my argument.

I was pointing out you can make an argument for anything, if it's for a greater good.

But you uh, you uh... said some decisions "for the greater good" have lead to gencocide. That's just "the holocaust" in other words.

 

[Xisiqomelir]

Does this mean they want JSDF commandos to raid Comiket?

How about the artists who post directly to 2ch?

More importantly, what about some protections for 3D, non-drawn, real-life underage girls? U15 gravure still exists, is anyone monitoring the shoots and tryouts to prevent abuse of very immature and vulnerable young people?

 

[Chariot]

But you uh, you uh... said some decisions "for the greater good" have lead to gencocide. That's just "the holocaust" in other words.

Just want to say that there are lots and lots of genocides on the world. So it's not necessary the holocaust.

That said, I don't think either that brining genocide into the argument is a bit weird. Could've gone just with censorship.

Because someone is jacking off to children?

To children that not exists. Quite preferable to children that do exist.

 

[Black Republican]

I am all for a ban only to see what Japan can come up this time. Last time it was tentacle porn.

But in all honesty, I am in the camp that thinks banning manga is not the way to start, but instead going after the (pre)teen gravure idol model area. And yeah, where exactly would it stop? What's extreme, rape or only sex or anything sexual? What if they wouldn't just stop at images, but would just go after everything? Even serious stuff like Game of Thrones could get banned then, with many of the younger characters basically still being children. And as someone already mentioned, we have stuff like Berserk and many other serious but older shows, what about them?

wait, theres a pre-teen gravure model market? as in under 16?

wtf

 

[KazenY2J]

wait, theres a pre-teen gravure model market? as in under 16?

wtf

Yep, they market it as "U-15". Pretty disgusting stuff.

 

[dity]

Just want to say that there are lots and lots of genocides on the world. So it's not necessary the holocaust.

Pretty sure there was only one in recent history known for being for "the greater good". That was the final solution, the holocaust. You ain't foolin' me.

 

[jabuseika]

-

 

[BocoDragon]

There are some possible permutations on the harm factor regarding loli stuff. I recall reports out there that abusers would show this kinda stuff to kids to demonstrate that it was 'normal' or to say kinda 'this is how you should act' sorta thing. It's tricky.

But yeah, the gravure/junior idol stuff is waaaaaaaaaaay creepier imho

Is this that different than the "violent videogames/comics/movies causes real world aggression", though?

Im not sure sexual matters are inherently more transferable to real world activity. It may be moreso that concern over sexual matters are wired into us biologically and culturally. We are prone to get mad at "pedo" things quicker than we do over "violent" things:

Or is it the case that sexual material generates more real world activity than violent material? I'm open to it, but I don't see it clearly to be true... If your anecdote is true, I could just as easily find the corallery with school shooters who played violent games.

 

[dity]

Is this that different than the "violent videogames/comics/movies causes real world aggression", though?

Im not sure sexual matters are inherently more transferable to real world activity. It may be moreso that concern over sexual matters are wired into us biologically and culturally. We are prone to get mad at "pedo" things quicker than we do over "violent" things:

Or is it the case that sexual material generates more real world activity than violent material? I'm open to it, but I don't see it clearly to be true... If your anecdote is true, I could just as easily find the corallery with school shooters who played violent games.

This isn't media effects, this is physically showing a book to a child and going "see, adults have sex with kids, here's a comic about it. It's normal." Way WAY different to what you're going on about.

 

[Chariot]

Pretty sure there was only one in recent history known for being for "the greater good". That was the final solution, the holocaust. You ain't foolin' me.

Don't be so sure. Most genocides are done for some kind of proposed greater good, nobody is announcing genocide of boredom. Look especially into the Ottoman Empire and the Soviet Union.

This isn't media effects, this is physically showing a book to a child and going "see, adults have sex with kids, here's a comic about it. It's normal." Way WAY different to what you're going on about.

Are we banning torture too? Somebody could show somebody a comicbook where torture is depicted. It's a silly argument. Lolicon manga doesn't legitimize the crime, the same way the Punisher doesn't legitimize vigilantism.

 

[Deleted member 125677]

Some people are so willing to take an authoritarian government, for the "greater good".

I don't accept the initial premise of your argument. An authoritarian government is absolutely not a prerequisite for banning child pornography, not in theory and certainly not in practice in most parts of the world.

This false premise is probably also the reason why the rest of your argument spectacularly falls apart in a loli ban to genocide comparison.

 

[jabuseika]

-

 

[BocoDragon]

This isn't media effects, this is physically showing a book to a child and going "see, adults have sex with kids, here's a comic about it. It's normal." Way WAY different to what you're going on about.

I dont see how it's meaningfully different from a young impressionable person getting the message from a violent movie that murder is exciting and desirable.

It's happened. I've listened to the podcast Sword and Scale. There was a 911 recording of a kid who killed his parents, and he directly cited a slasher movie (can't remember which) as his influence.

If fiction does normalize the activity for impressionable audiences, the ban should not end at lolicon.

 

[dity]

Are we banning torture too? Somebody could show somebody a comicbook where torture is depicted. It's a silly argument. Lolicon manga doesn't legitimize the crime, the same way the Punisher doesn't legitimize vigilantism.

It's a tool used by groomers to show that what they want to do is ok.

And yes, I'm pretty sure torture is generally considered not ok. Here's a wiki showing how almost the whole world has agreed to let the United Nations stop any and all instances of it.

I dont see how it's meaningfully different from a young impressionable person getting the message from a violent movie that murder is exciting and desirable.

It's happened. I've listened to the podcast Sword and Scale. There was a 911 recording of a kid who killed his parents, and he directly cited a slasher movie (can't remember which) as his influence.

If fiction does normalize the activity for impressionable audiences, the ban should not end at lolicon.

Do none of you fucking know what "grooming" is? It's not media influences. It's a pedophile sitting down with your child and showing them the book and using it to enable child sexual assault. It's literally "hey kid look this kid's getting fucked let's fuck like them other kids do it".

This is enraging. Leaving the thread.

 

[Chariot]

It's a tool used by groomers to show that what they want to do is ok.

And yes, I'm pretty sure torture is generally considered not ok. Here's a wiki showing how the whole world has agreed to let the United Nations stop any and all instances of it.

Are you wilfully twisting what I said? Of course torture is not okay and this is exactly my point. Torture is banned, but it can still be depicted in fiction, can it not?

 

[dity]

Are you wilfully twisting what I said? Of course torture is not okay and this is exactly my point. Torture is banned, but it can still be depicted in fiction, can it not?

The answer to "are we banning torture too" is a resounding "yes". It's an utterly stupid comparison. Would you show torture to make something think it's ok? THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE. It's not even comparable. It's an idiotic comparison through and through.

 

[Jintor]

I dont see how it's meaningfully different from a young impressionable person getting the message from a violent movie that murder is exciting and desirable.

Grooming is a different argument than the passive influence of media on audiences, boco.

 

[jabuseika]

-

 

[Moff]

Here's an interesting paper, that has links to a fair amount of the research, concerning the same issue when it was dealt with in the U.S., while Ashcroft was running Justice:
http://scholarship.shu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&context=student_scholarship

Basically, the arguments come down to 1) child pornography doesn't inhibit and may exacerbate a pedophile's need to molest and 2) child pornography(drawn and real) is used by pedophiles to draw in children for predation.

I did not expect that, very interesting.
thanks for bringing that up.
certainly changes my view on the topic.