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[Estellex]

To preface, I am going to use China as an example since I am able to find more information on their education system. Also, I have never been educated in China, so many of the information I put out are through intensive research online.

Chinese education is heavily cemented in the ideas of Confucianism. Confucius was a 6th century Chinese bureaucrat that envisioned all of society as an integrated family unit. This essentially means that the family construct is abstracted to all of society; the teachers of schools are viewed as more of an authoritative parental figure while the students are merely the children. Confucius saw this structure as the more ideal way to keep Chinese society stable because of its rapidly growing population.

Chinese education focuses on accumulating knowledge through intense rote learning and developing computational skills. Creativity or abstract critical thinking is often not a priority like it is in American schools, so understanding the fundamentals of a given domain is not a concern to the educators. As a result, Chinese students are label as uncreative compared to their American counterparts. In contrast, rote learning is one of the most efficient way to learning key information on various subjects which then can be manipulated abstractly later on.

Interestingly enough, East Asian students have consistently outpace their Western Peers in International assessment like the PISA. (https://www.businessinsider.com/her...sistently-outpace-their-western-peers-2016-12)


How true is this? For people that have been educated in the East and the West, do you find this to be the case? Are Chinese students typically more uncreative or lack abstract critical thinking skills?

 

[NecrosaroIII]

You have to be more specific when talking about education. Are we talking about K-12 or All the way up through college

 

[Estellex]

You have to be more specific when talking about education. Are we talking about K-12 or All the way up through college

I am sorry for not being clear. I am talking about K-12.

 

[triplestation]

i think with STEM subjects rote learning can be VERY effective

theory can come later once you have a very strong foundation in the rote shit, i think you would appreciate the theory even more if it was like this

 

[Taxexemption]

Chinese students are only uncreative because creativity is disallowed in their society. If you can't criticize the government or society you live in your thinking is really limited. The asian system is superior because it often includes a published list of students grades, which acts as a kind of popularity contest. People like you, and want to be your friend more if you are "smart" and so it's kinda cool to have your name on the high score list. I basically think the existence of published "high score lists" makes Asian education systems superior.

 

[triplestation]

i think chinese students can be just as creative as anyone else regardless of any system, aint nobody gonna put a cap on nobody's creativity that shit comes with your personality boy

 

[Quasicat]

I took an Asian education class in college which compared exactly what you are looking towards. One thing I can remember my professor (who was Chinese) saying in class was the nail that sticks up gets hammered back into place. That always stuck with me, probably due to sharp imagery comparing a student to a nail being hammered down. That being said, there has been a big push lately in my (and neighboring) district(s) in creating the grid method. This basically says that my job is obsolete due to the internet and students should be motivated to find the standards with little guidance from the teacher. This changes my role from teacher to facilitator. There is a little room for creativity, but it goes more with the rote form of learning with very little room for personal expression of the student or teacher.
At first, I was against this, but as we have been using this with online instruction, my students are excelling at it and are outperforming many similarly placed academic students throughout the state.

 

[Mistake]

From my experience over in China, right and wrong are strictly enforced, and it’s a lot less about asking “why” or examining other options. There is a heavy focus on math, but because of the approach, it’s hard to produce good scientists or people who are very creative. Another reason for this is something you normally wouldn’t think, which is speech and writing. When speaking Chinese you have to be very accurate because of the tones, and when writing, you need the proper stroke order. Even for people who do end up being creative, don’t forget the censorship

private schools there are more westernized, so there’s that

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

As someone that was raised in Singapore, USA and Australia in terms of education I can't speak directly to Chinese schooling personally but I have worked for Chinese bosses, managed their companies/staff and visited China a number of times as well as employ Chinese myself for over a decade with my own company. I also employ other cultures but not for programming as well as having Chinese friends and business contacts. The same goes for the USA and I have family in Australia and USA with years of living abroad in USA, Australia and Singapore.

Yes Chinese are less creative in our western relatable topics and arts, they don't necessarily lack creativity in their own culture though. Yes they lack the critical or creative thought generally speaking, their methods of learning develop a lack of "why" or stepping outside of the box or challenging the status quo. I have excellent programmers from China but poor designers, exceptionally poor at design TBH and worse at even understanding why features or usability are useful to a business or person using them. I've sourced staff in a range of skills from USA, Australia, England, Vietnam, India, Sri Lanka, Venezuela, China and more over the 20+ years of owning my company. No one programs like the Chinese and few have the one for all mentality of drop what you're doing to help get a job done as they do; without reservation of pride or ego or role assignment. As for creativity or start ups and similar ilk I'd be reluctant to head to Chinese staff first. There's a wealth of things to gain from China and there's also countries that do other elements far better e.g. creativity or innovation or ethics.

Outside of the specifics of this thread though and when I reflect on my young children being raised and educated I'll take the European world leading methods that have been evolving for the last 10-25 years instead of what China or USA are currently undertaking. European leading nations squarely focus on eliminating private schools, creating social interaction and connection with results being based on creating happy adults rather than standardised tests and purely STEM throughout for cookie cutter success stories. I'm not a huge fan of Michael Moore as he tends to sensationalise but his documentary "Where to Invade Next" on the topic subject highlights the successes of the best European nation's methods have to offer and what could be taken to the western/USA institutions and culture.

I'd prefer to take from more relatable and diverse cultures such as European over Chinese. There's simply more happiness to be had with the former.

 

[Weiji]

I’ve met a ton of people smarter then me who get paid less.

Guess what, being able to memorize and repeat a task quickly is wayyyyyy less valuable then being able to creatively adjust that same task to make it more efficient.

 

[BluRayHiDef]

I think that one of the problems with the U.S. education system relative to those of Northeast Asia is that there are too many days off; the school year in the USA is too short and filled with holidays and vacations. The philosophical and methodological differences are less important that this in my opinion.

 

[cryptoadam]

US over spends in college and under spends in high school and lower. One of only 4 countries to spend above 2% of GDP while not even at the average for the lower grades.

 

[MaestroMike]

I think that one of the problems with the U.S. education system relative to those of Northeast Asia is that there are too many days off; the school year in the USA is too short and filled with holidays and vacations. The philosophical and methodological differences are less important that this in my opinion.

There should be more days off not less. 2 months off in summer and 2 months off in winter. Less is more. More time needs to be spent outside.

 

[DESTROYA]

Could be one reason they steal everyones IP’s , it’s easier to steal or buy ideas then come up with your own.

 

[BluRayHiDef]

There should be more days off not less. 2 months off in summer and 2 months off in winter. Less is more. More time needs to be spent outside.

Madness. The U.S.'s latest PISA (Programme for International Student Assessment) scores are lower than those of China (Beijing, Macao, Hong Kong), Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea, and Japan in reading, mathematics, and science (except in regard to reading compared to Taiwan and Japan). They're also lower than those of Canada and several European countries, but I've focused on only Northeast Asian countries since they're what we're talking about.


1. China (Beijjng): 555, 591, and 590
2. Singapore: 549, 569, and 551
3. China (Macao): 525, 558, and 544
4. China (Hong Kong): 524, 551, and 517
5. Taiwan ("Chinese Taipei"): 503, 531, and 516
6. South Korea: 514, 526 and 519
7. Japan: 504, 527 and 529
8. United States: 505, 478, and 502

Spoiler

 

[MaestroMike]

Madness. The U.S.'s latest PISA (Programme for International Student Assessment) scores are lower than those of China (Beijing, Macao, Hong Kong), Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea, and Japan in reading, mathematics, and science (except in regard to reading compared to Taiwan and Japan). They're also lower than those of Canada and several European countries, but I've focused on only Northeast Asian countries since they're what we're talking about.


1. China (Beijjng): 555, 591, and 590
2. Singapore: 549, 569, and 551
3. China (Macao): 525, 558, and 544
4. China (Hong Kong): 524, 551, and 517
5. Taiwan ("Chinese Taipei"): 503, 531, and 516
6. South Korea: 514, 526 and 519
7. Japan: 504, 527 and 529
8. United States: 505, 478, and 502

Spoiler

How many awards have those countries won in creative endeavors for movies and music and video games??? Science and math is important but for people pursuing more creative paths they cannot spend all their time studying those subjects and have to be in environments that nurture their creativity. Graphics and design is important to many businesses especially in software.

 

[Ten_Fold]

I always thought it was because they don’t question shit like we do in the u.s. most schools we hardly listen to the teacher, we do what we want, which leads us to being more creative as we think more outside the box and challenge things.

 

[cryptoadam]

Americans are getting dumber and its only going to continue with this wokeness. Places want to get rid of history now. 2+2=5 is trending on twitter. And then when they get to university its even more crap.

I am also willing to bet that a vast number if not the majority of top % students are probably foreign students. How many uni's have Chinese or Indians killing it in Stem/Medical courses taking all the top honors?

The dumbest in society are trying to pull everyone down and lower the standards because its easier to make everyone stupid rather than work on being smart.

 

[BluRayHiDef]

How many awards have those countries won in creative endeavors for movies and music and video games??? Science and math is important but for people pursuing more creative paths they cannot spend all their time studying those subjects and have to be in environments that nurture their creativity. Graphics and design is important to many businesses especially in software.

I concede defeat. You're right.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Americans are getting dumber and its only going to continue with this wokeness. Places want to get rid of history now. 2+2=5 is trending on twitter. And then when they get to university its even more crap.

I am also willing to bet that a vast number if not the majority of top % students are probably foreign students. How many uni's have Chinese or Indians killing it in Stem/Medical courses taking all the top honors?

The dumbest in society are trying to pull everyone down and lower the standards because its easier to make everyone stupid rather than work on being smart.

If by Americans you mean the entire continent then yes.

 

[MaestroMike]

I concede defeat. You're right.

No one's defeated we're just sharing ideas/opinions

 

[down 2 orth]

OP I don't know where to start. You're off by about a thousand years on Confucius' lifetime. The Chinese education system is heavily cemented in the ideas of Communism, not Confucianism. Until recently, Confucianism was deemed to be a direct threat to Communism. And if you see what passes for "history" in those classes... well, let's just say that it's a close counterpart to political fan-fiction.

There's a reason why Chinese are flocking in droves to pretty much every university in the world right now.

 

[Tesseract]

let the institutions crumble, modules are the future

(especially vr)

americans tolerate the socratic method well, problem is the teachers

 

[EverydayBeast]

American families sacrifice a lot to get their family in good schools, what becomes of your son is what school you put them through.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Asian countries stick to academics because it's something to be proud of..... you aren't a dummy. Also, focusing on books is cheaper than something like sports, and it doesn't seem the average Asian school is equipped or wants to spend the money on fancy arts programs or sports facilities.

Put it this way. I've seen on TV US high schools with better athletic fields than Canadian universities.

In places like the US, there's a mix of academics for book worms but also creative fields and athletics, which may have nothing to do with reading, math or science in a pure form.

I'm not surprised at the US being bad a math. Seems like lots of idiots who scrape by hoping to graduate high school by the skin of their teeth with something like arts or sports being the saviour subjects for their career.

 

[BluRayHiDef]

American families sacrifice a lot to get their family in good schools, what becomes of your son is what school you put them through.

What about daughters? Why did you mention only sons?

 

[Halo is Back]

I wish our education system was as good as Japan's. The culture there is different too, as they take schooling way more serious than the West.

 

[Porcile]

I wish our education system was as good as Japan's. The culture there is different too, as they take schooling way more serious than the West.

Except the quality and seriousness of Japan's public education is a complete myth. Yes, it's not bad but it can be in no way described as good and faces huge challenges especially when it comes to attracting quality teachers.

 

[Halo is Back]

Except the quality and seriousness of Japan's public education is a complete myth. Yes, it's not bad but it can be in no way described as good and faces huge challenges especially when it comes to attracting quality teachers.

Care to explain? The U.S. sure as hell ain't leading the race in that regard

 

[BluRayHiDef]

Except the quality and seriousness of Japan's public education is a complete myth. Yes, it's not bad but it can be in no way described as good and faces huge challenges especially when it comes to attracting quality teachers.

I always thought that Japan's school system was among the best in the world, considering that Japan is a prime first-world country that has a predominantly tertiary economy, which requires a highly educated populace. It also has a very low crime rate, which is an indication of a well educated populace that doesn't need to resort to crime to survive but can instead attain employment.

 

[Porcile]

Care to explain? The U.S. sure as hell ain't leading the race in that regard

It would be a long post to write everything I think about it but I'll try to summarise some of my opinions after having worked in Japan's public school system for a number of years.

Old buildings match the old and dated teaching methods the vast vast majority teachers use. Unfortunately, Japan's education is stuck about 20 or 30 years in the past. I remember when I was secondary school student in England and some teachers were using digital blackboards and Powerpoint for their lesson. You might be hard pressed to find a Japanese teacher who even knows how to open Powerpoint let alone use it. Okay, that's a slight exaggeration but it's a truer statement than you would expect. Japan's schools closed down for three months and there was absolutely no system in place for delivering online or digital lessons. Teachers simply don't know how to do it. It's lessons on paper with a dude standing in front of a blackboard and some chalk or nothing at all.

This leads into students who if they are not exposed to it at home are essentially tech illiterate outside of their smartphones. Not an issue 20 years ago but a major issue today. There is no system in place to teach the kids any practical skills. I'm positive China and Korea are completely destroying Japan in this regard.

Yes, something good can be said about Japanese students behaviour, in so much that the classroom usually isn't dangerous, but Japanese students can also be incredibly dull and unimaginative. The students are products of their teachers who themselves are dull and unimaginative. Inspiring is not a word I would use AT ALL for Japan's teachers.

Finally, the big trick of Japanese education is that 90% of students will pay to have extensive lessons at private schools after their normal school hours, sometimes staying at these schools until 9 or 10 at night multiple days a week. Parents know that their children won't get enough quality education if they relied solely on public schools alone.

I'm not saying it's all bad, and yes, maybe it is better than SOME countries, but it's not better than most countries, and considering that Japan is relatively wealthy and middle-class, the ongoing myth of its public school's brilliance and effectiveness is so over exaggerated I just roll my eyes every time I hear it.

 

[Porcile]

I always thought that Japan's school system was among the best in the world, considering that Japan is a prime first-world country that has a predominantly tertiary economy, which requires a highly educated populace. It also has a very low crime rate, which is an indication of a well educated populace that doesn't need to resort to crime to survive but can instead attain employment.

Yes, it's fine if you pay for it though either private school or after school cram schools. Good luck to your kid if you can't afford that.

 

[Breakage]

One thing for sure is that the Far East isn't weighed down by all this diversity and identity-based madness.

I think countries such as China have finally realised that they don't need to embrace diversity and immigration in the same way the West has in order to get whatever benefits these may bring in terms of research and innovation.

They just need highly skilled computing hacking units to grab the goodies.

 

[Halo is Back]

It would be a long post to write everything I think about it but I'll try to summarise some of my opinions after having worked in Japan's public school system for a number of years.

Old buildings match the old and dated teaching methods the vast vast majority teachers use. Unfortunately, Japan's education is stuck about 20 or 30 years in the past. I remember when I was secondary school student in England and some teachers were using digital blackboards and Powerpoint for their lesson. You might be hard pressed to find a Japanese teacher who even knows how to open Powerpoint let alone use it. Okay, that's a slight exaggeration but it's a truer statement than you would expect. Japan's schools closed down for three months and there was absolutely no system in place for delivering online or digital lessons. Teachers simply don't know how to do it. It's lessons on paper with a dude standing in front of a blackboard and some chalk or nothing at all.

This leads into students who if they are not exposed to it at home are essentially tech illiterate outside of their smartphones. Not an issue 20 years ago but a major issue today. There is no system in place to teach the kids any practical skills. I'm positive China and Korea are completely destroying Japan in this regard.

Yes, something good can be said about Japanese students behaviour, in so much that the classroom usually isn't dangerous, but Japanese students can also be incredibly dull and unimaginative. The students are products of their teachers who themselves are dull and unimaginative. Inspiring is not a word I would use AT ALL for Japan's teachers.

Finally, the big trick of Japanese education is that 90% of students will pay to have extensive lessons at private schools after their normal school hours, sometimes staying at these schools until 9 or 10 at night multiple days a week. Parents know that their children won't get enough quality education if they relied solely on public schools alone.

I'm not saying it's all bad, and yes, maybe it is better than SOME countries, but it's not better than most countries, and considering that Japan is relatively wealthy and middle-class, the ongoing myth of its public school's brilliance and effectiveness is so over exaggerated I just roll my eyes every time I hear it.

Thanks for the post.

This part sounds like America too tbh lmao

 

[BluRayHiDef]

Yes, it's fine if you pay for it though either private school or after school cram schools. Good luck to your kid if you can't afford that.

It's a self-perpetuating cycle: An efficient percentage of Japanese people are highly educated and therefore employed in lucrative fields and therefore able to pay for private schools and cram schools for their children, which results in their children becoming highly educated and therefore employed in lucrative fields and therefore able to pay for private schools and cram schools for their children, and so on and so on.

 

[SentientStone]

I think ideally we need a balance between the western and eastern systems. I feel in the West we are lacking in STEM a bit for the younger kids, while in the East they have too much damn homework (HK and China from what I have witnessed) and not enough free time to wander and become more holistic, also more stress and competition due to population density. lol

 

[Neolombax]

I've had education in South East Asia (Malaysia to be specific) up until pre-university. Then I spent 4 years in Australia for uni. Does Australia count as a western country? My peers certainly think so, as do I.

The difference is actually quite stark. I would say this, I feel that education system in Malaysia seems to be geared towards being book smart, the emphasis is more on memorizing as many things and concepts as possible, whereas in Australia, I think the focus is more on critical thinking, contextualizing problems in a out-of-the-box manner to come to a solution.