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U.S. moves to impose tariffs of as much as 219 percent on Canadian jetliners

K

KSweeley

Member
WaPo just reported that the U.S. Government has sided with Boeing who filed a complaint that Canadian jet maker Bombardier who is a rival to Boeing is receiving unfair subsidies from the government and the U.S. Government might be imposing tariffs as much as 219% on Canadian jetliners as a result: https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...isrc=al_alert-COMBO-politics%2Beconomy&wpmk=1

The U.S. government moved to impose tariffs on Canadian jetliners Tuesday when it ruled in favor of a complaint by U.S. aircraft maker Boeing that claimed rival Bombardier is receiving unfair government subsidies.

The department suggested the tariffs could be as high as 219 percent. The action threatens to further inflame trade tensions between the two North American neighbors. Earlier this year, the Commerce Department moved to impose new duties on the import of Canadian soft lumber and President Trump has signaled his interest to renegotiate the terms of the North America Free Trade Agreement between the two nations.

Bombardier has sold aircraft to U.S. carriers for decades. But Boeing’s complaint follows a multibillion-dollar deal struck between Bombardier and Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines for 75 C-series CS-100’s, a commercial airplane that seats about 100 people.

Following the deal, Boeing formally asked the U.S. Commerce Department to investigate what it called illegal government subsidies and unfair pricing practices that have allegedly given the Canadian company an unfair advantage as it competes for business in the United States.

“Without bailout money from Ottawa and the Quebec provincial government [Bombardier] would probably be bankrupt,” said Loren Thompson, a defense consultant whose think tank gets funding from Boeing. “What Boeing is really saying here is that Bombardier has an unfair advantage because Canadian taxpayers are covering part of its cost.”

The Trump administration did not take an official position on the matter before Tuesday evening’s trade decision. But British and Canadian leaders have publicly urged the Trump Administration not to impose tariffs.

The Guardian reported earlier this month that British Prime Minister Theresa May raised the issue privately with President Trump following political pressure in the U.K. And Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau suggested earlier this month that his government might retaliate directly against Boeing through decisions on military purchasing agreements. The Canadian military is considering whether to buy Boeing’s F-18 Super Hornets for the Canadian military, and Trudeau suggested in a Sept. 18 news conference that he would abandon the purchase as a result of Boeing’s complaint against Bombardier.

“We won’t do business with a company that’s busy trying to sue us and put our aerospace workers out of business,” Trudeau said in the news conference.
Click to expand...
 
O

Ominym

Banned
I was wondering when Trump would decide to start picking fights with Canada. That Trudeau handshake still got him shook.
 
F

FrankCanada97

Roughly the size of a baaaaaarge
Boeing is trying to prevent another Airbus from emerging. The CSeries is the first line of jetliners that competes directly with Boeing and Airbus.
 
B

Baltic

Banned
What will Boeing do when, in a soon to come nuclear winter, Bombardier strikes deals after deals with their top of the line radiation-proof ski-doo?
 
M

Madness

Member
killer rin said:
Not as silly as Boeing suing Bombardier over subsidies it also receives, abet in a more under-the-table manner.
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Shhhhh. Don't bring up the fact the US government has long proppes up it's own companies through direct subsidies/bailouts/or under the table deals.

I hope Canada responds in kind. The US is making enemies of their allies. The Bombardier bailout by Canada was no different than what the US did for GM and Chrysler.
 
D

djkimothy

Member
Madness said:
Shhhhh. Don't bring up the fact the US government has long proppes up it's own companies through direct subsidies/bailouts/or under the table deals.

I hope Canada responds in kind. The US is making enemies of their allies. The Bombardier bailout by Canada was no different than what the US did for GM and Chrysler.
Click to expand...

Canada will most likely reconsider the sole source of super hornets and other equipment. I also hear May also has potential military contracts that will be reviewed with boeing. Begin... the trade wars has...
 
F

FrankCanada97

Roughly the size of a baaaaaarge
JetBlue (which doesn't fly Boeing or Bombardier aircraft) defended Bombardier:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/jetblue-defends-bombardier-in-spat-with-boeing-441478/
JetBlue chief executive Robin Hayes is urging the US International Trade Commission (USITC) to reject Boeing's call for tariffs to be imposed on the Bombardier airliner.

"If the petitions prevail, JetBlue will lose access to a competitive and innovative platform that could bring significant benefits to the American flying public," writes Hayes in a 24 September letter to the commission's chairman Rhonda Schmidtlein.
...
...
...
"JetBlue is monitoring the development of the Bombardier CSeries because it could have the potential to contribute to our competitive advantages," Hayes confirms in the letter to Schmidtlein. "First, the CSeries is the only aircraft offering a newly designed five-abreast interior. The aircraft's interior has won praise from commentators and our competitors alike, which aligns with our history of product differentiation."

Hayes also refers to the operating costs of the CSeries' Pratt & Whitney geared turbofan engine, saying that they align with JetBlue's strategy of maintaining a low-cost structure.

The airline believes that the industry will benefit from competition between the CSeries and Embraer 190, adds Hayes, backing Bombardier's assertion that its aircraft does not compete with larger Boeing and Airbus jets.
Click to expand...
 
K

killer rin

Member
I am curious about how the Canadian government is going to react. Trudeau said he was going to cancel the F-18 Superhornet purchase. I wonder if we will go any further though, he could pretty much do anything he wanted., Granted though some things could be hard to implement without completely screwing over the Canadian Economy in the process. The only thing that comes to mind is that given the USA has already made a first step, he cranks up the tariffs on Softwood Lumber even more and hit the USA where it hurts in housing prices. Especially since demand is huge right now because of how they are just being pelted by hurricanes and people needing to fix and straight up rebuild their houses. Then again, doing so would piss off the lumber industry in BC

He also seems close to May in the UK given how they stood together on this topic during the trail. I wonder if he could negotiate them cancelling their military purchasing agreements with Boeing... or getting them to take Boeing off the table in exchange for a better free trade agreement come Brexit. The UK needs it and it could be the perfect wedge to make it happen
 
M

mugurumakensei

Member
Begun the Trade Wars have. I'm waiting for the Clone Wars personally.

But begin serious, this is likely going to get worse the longer Trump is president.
 
M

MikeyB

Member
As a resident of Toronto, fuck Bombardier and every government official working to keep them afloat. The delay on the streetcars and the shittyness of what has been delivered respectively has and will make my life objectively worse and my city poorer.

Any politician who will let that company flop has my interest.
 
Goro Majima

Goro Majima

Kitty Genovese Member
Does Boeing make an equivalent to the Bombadier 1x2 regional aircraft? Seems like when I fly that Boeing does the larger jets and Bombadier/Embraer (Brazil) do the small ones
 
K

killer rin

Member
wienke said:
Does Boeing make an equivalent to the Bombadier 1x2 regional aircraft? Seems like when I fly that Boeing does the larger jets and Bombadier/Embraer (Brazil) do the small ones
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Nope. This was a point all the airliners have been hammering on to no avail. Boeing doesn't make an aircraft at the same size/requirements as the C-series Bombardier has made. Delta even stated outright that they were looking at smaller aircraft when purchasing these and Boeing couldn't offer that.
 
Hari Seldon

Hari Seldon

Member
This will amount to very little. Some deal will be worked out and shit will go back to normal, that is how these things always go.
 
D

djkimothy

Member
Despite the flurry in th past 12 hours there's a lot of talk of of different actions that can be taken with out retaliatory trade wars. Like the court of international trade. Or that the USITC could end up siding with Bombardier since they have to ask the question, how has this plane hurt Boeing's business.

There's still some options at play. Also, bombardier is looking to close deals with Chinese airlines.

Also, this was posted by Alex Panetta on twitter.

https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/top-100-parents
 
M

mdubs

Banned
MikeyB said:
As a resident of Toronto, fuck Bombardier and every government official working to keep them afloat. The delay on the streetcars and the shittyness of what has been delivered respectively has and will make my life objectively worse and my city poorer.

Any politician who will let that company flop has my interest.
Click to expand...
Yup. We’ve got a city full of people here who hate Bombardier, so not a lot of sympathy going on. Maybe if they were a better company they wouldn’t need to be bailed out time and again. I hope they win against Boeing but they will still be a terrible company regardless.
 
K

Keasar

Member
I'd avoid making the Canadians angry.
giphy.gif


Didn't Canada last time they were ticked off by America rush the country and burn the White House (among other things) down?
 
G

grumble

Member
MikeyB said:
As a resident of Toronto, fuck Bombardier and every government official working to keep them afloat. The delay on the streetcars and the shittyness of what has been delivered respectively has and will make my life objectively worse and my city poorer.

Any politician who will let that company flop has my interest.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah? Bombardier has 20k employees. Its suppliers have a ton too, as well as the businesses that rely on the income stream from bombardier employees. Those are good jobs. If that company were to collapse, you can bet that you'll be a lot poorer.

Also, those are different divisions.


This tariff is absurdly high, and is intended to close the US market to Bombardier. The CSeries is a great plane, and US citizens are definitely worse off not having access to it. This is a corporate handout and protectionism, nothing more. Boeing also receives subsidies that dwarf those of bombardier.

So US citizens are worse off, Canadian citizens are worse off, Bombardier is worse off, and Boeing is better off.
 
Thelonelykoopa

Thelonelykoopa

Member
I was listening to the BBC on my way to college and they mentioned this isn't expected to go anywhere because the plane that is going to be sold isn't directly competing with any boeing aircraft.
 
G

Gai Murakumo

Member
grumble said:
Oh yeah? Bombardier has 20k employees. Its suppliers have a ton too, as well as the businesses that rely on the income stream from bombardier employees. Those are good jobs. If that company were to collapse, you can bet that you'll be a lot poorer.

Also, those are different divisions.


This tariff is absurdly high, and is intended to close the US market to Bombardier. The CSeries is a great plane, and US citizens are definitely worse off not having access to it. This is a corporate handout and protectionism, nothing more. Boeing also receives subsidies that dwarf those of bombardier.

So US citizens are worse off, Canadian citizens are worse off, Bombardier is worse off, and Boeing is better off.
Click to expand...
I agree high tariffs on any products or companies in the end hurts everybody not just the ones directly effected by the tariff.
 
M

Mr. Giggles

Member
MikeyB said:
As a resident of Toronto, fuck Bombardier and every government official working to keep them afloat. The delay on the streetcars and the shittyness of what has been delivered respectively has and will make my life objectively worse and my city poorer.

Any politician who will let that company flop has my interest.
Click to expand...

This is a narrow minded perspective.

First, the train division has nothing to do with aerospace division so I don't know why you're mixing the two up.

Second bombardier aerospace employs a lot of people in Canada not to mention the suppliers and the people who work for them.

If bombardier aerospace collapses, you're going to have a lot of people suddenly unemployed relying on EI which is going to put a huge strain on the welfare.
 
D

Dunlop

Member
Mr. Giggles said:
This is a narrow minded perspective.

First, the train division has nothing to do with aerospace division so I don't know why you're mixing the two up.

Second bombardier aerospace employs a lot of people in Canada not to mention the suppliers and the people who work for them.

If bombardier aerospace collapses, you're going to have a lot of people suddenly unemployed relying on EI which is going to put a huge strain on the welfare.
Click to expand...

I work in healthcare in Quebec which is in a constant crisis because of the liberal governments senseless cuts in the name of austerity. At the same time they give Bombardier (a private company) a billion fucking taxpayers dollars with no strings attached (very big headlines about execs giving themselves raises and multi million dollar bonuses)

I'm in the fuck Bombardier camp
 
M

Mailbox

Member
Dunlop said:
I work in healthcare in Quebec which is in a constant crisis because of the liberal governments senseless cuts in the name of austerity. At the same time they give Bombardier (a private company) a billion fucking taxpayers dollars with no strings attached (very big headlines about execs giving themselves raises and multi million dollar bonuses)

I'm in the fuck Bombardier camp
Click to expand...

If you work in healthcare you should know the difference between federal and provincial governments and should also know that provincial liberals and federal liberals arent the same thing.


As far as im aware the federal libs havent done shit wrt medical austerity.
What the fuck are you even talking about?
 
P

Pedrito

Member
Dunlop said:
I work in healthcare in Quebec which is in a constant crisis because of the liberal governments senseless cuts in the name of austerity. At the same time they give Bombardier (a private company) a billion fucking taxpayers dollars with no strings attached (very big headlines about execs giving themselves raises and multi million dollar bonuses)

I'm in the fuck Bombardier camp
Click to expand...

Aside from 49% of the shares? I mean, come on...
 
R

RevoDS

Junior Member
Mailbox said:
If you work in healthcare you should know the difference between federal and provincial governments and should also know that provincial liberals and federal liberals arent the same thing.


As far as im aware the federal libs havent done shit wrt medical austerity.
What the fuck are you even talking about?
Click to expand...
The Bombardier bailout wasn't only federal, the provincial government also took a stake in Bombardier for a billion or so.

So he's talking about the provincial Liberals on both counts
 
H

HariKari

Member
wienke said:
Does Boeing make an equivalent to the Bombadier 1x2 regional aircraft? Seems like when I fly that Boeing does the larger jets and Bombadier/Embraer (Brazil) do the small ones
Click to expand...

Boeing is salty that their 737 lunch is being eaten on both sides by better regional aircraft and better long range airframes like the A321LR.
 
S

Slackbladder

Member
This also affects over a thousand jobs in Northern Ireland (not including the many other jobs centered on this contract) so the British Government isn't happy either. And to think Brexiteers thought the US could be a great trade partner. Fucking fantasists.
 
Goro Majima

Goro Majima

Kitty Genovese Member
grumble said:
Oh yeah? Bombardier has 20k employees. Its suppliers have a ton too, as well as the businesses that rely on the income stream from bombardier employees. Those are good jobs. If that company were to collapse, you can bet that you'll be a lot poorer.

Also, those are different divisions.


This tariff is absurdly high, and is intended to close the US market to Bombardier. The CSeries is a great plane, and US citizens are definitely worse off not having access to it. This is a corporate handout and protectionism, nothing more. Boeing also receives subsidies that dwarf those of bombardier.

So US citizens are worse off, Canadian citizens are worse off, Bombardier is worse off, and Boeing is better off.
Click to expand...

Kinda seems like Embraer is the big winner here I guess. Just shifts the purchases to Brazil instead of Canada unless we're going to fuck that over as well.

Otherwise like you said, Americans will be hurt by either having fewer routes or higher ticket prices due to having to use larger Boeing aircraft for short flights. Hell having fewer regional aircraft and fewer routes will hurt commerce in less populated areas.
 
M

Miles X

Member
Slackbladder said:
This also affects over a thousand jobs in Northern Ireland (not including the many other jobs centered on this contract) so the British Government isn't happy either. And to think Brexiteers thought the US could be a great trade partner. Fucking fantasists.
Click to expand...

Was Trump president then?
 
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