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[kaching]

DJ_Tet, the gaming world doesn't just consist of consoles. There's PC gaming and handheld gaming where gamers have been getting BC for a long time. Consoles are behind the curve in offering it when there's a chance to do so.

 

[sonycowboy]

This sounds like a load of crap. MS never would've said "backward compatible" if this was the solution they came up with.

The more I think about this, the more it seems like a deceptive "out" by Microsoft. Media articles, store employees, etc will say that XBox 360 is Backwards compatible. They may or may not state this it for "some" games or the "best" games or whatever, but what Microsoft is offering is not backwards compatability.

Backwards compatability is a damn near 100%, no extra work required, no caveat kind of a thing.

However, Microsoft will gain the perception that there system is BC and, truth be told, it's not a real big deal for most people, it's just a nice PR checkpoint.

 

[FiRez]

hope this hasn´t been posted.. if so, delete

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=8996

games have to be recompiled? then the old library you have is useless anyway since you have to buy the games again?!

this can´t be true? although it sounds kind of like "the best selling will work"..

the just re-release the best selling games..

Do you know that the recompilation just affects the executable file (max 5mb) the emulation pack can have just the xbe of each game that it can emulate.

for ex. even if the game has 3.0gb almost 95% is raw game data (gfx, sounds, etc)this files sometimes are even reused for other plataforms (there are even xbox games with directories named PS2, GC, PC .ini files for config.) the file that the xbox reads to execute the game is called "default.xbe" and so far I have yet to see one that has >5mb aprox.

 

[michael000]

Guess i've always taken backwards compatibility as a given since Sony's transition from PS1 to PS2 was so seamless, and gameboy games play in damn near everything lol. I've honestly never kept track of what powers the XBOX but the problem appears to be the nvidia core in the xbox and the ati one in the 360? If that's the case then in theory if sony were to switch to ati core for PS4 then they'd run into the same problem as well right? I'm no techhead so if these are stupid questions cut me a bit of slack :lol

 

[akascream]

Lol, if this is true I will laugh. All this while, MS was talking about Backwards Compilability.

"It was all just a silly misunderstanding!"

 

[Laurent]

ATI != nVidia

 

[PhatSaqs]

Backwards compatability is a damn near 100%, no extra work required, no caveat kind of a thing.

Enabling BC always requires extra work. The only (huge) difference here is that MS is doing it at the software level.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Sony's going to have to provide software emulation for their older systems...although they own and have direct access to the IP for those systems since they own and created it. They might offer have updates to offer in the same way as MS will due to differences in hardware, though... Nintendo won't have to deal with any of this because it looks like their new system will house mega-beefed up versions of the CPU and GPU they already have in the GC, so compatibility is maintained on a strictly hardware level.

 

[HokieJoe]

BC? eh.

I understand that it's important to some people- it's just not important to me. There's very few if any old games that I will play on the new system. For me, the only exceptions to this are Forza, Halo2, and PGR2. The only reason I can think of is that I can play them with my friends over Live who don't have a 360 yet.

Even then it's not enough to sway me away from buying a new console. I'm buying the 360 for the HD, and new games.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I agree that BC isn't that big a deal, but in this case, I'm just more interested in how they achieve it. :lol

 

[sonycowboy]

Enabling BC always requires extra work. The only (huge) difference here is that MS is doing it at the software level.

What I mean is from a user perspective. As long as they don't actively have to do anything other than stick their Xbox game disk in the system to play, then that would be fine. If they have to know which games are or aren't compatabile, buy things to make it work, recompile game data, download things on their own, then that would be a mess.

If it's transparent for your casual gamer, even if it's complex emulation / recompilation / whatever, then it's perfectly fine.

 

[akascream]

Watch them make it so you have to buy a new copy of the game heh.

 

[PhatSaqs]

What I mean is from a user perspective. As long as they don't actively have to do anything other than stick their Xbox game disk in the system to play, then that would be fine. If they have to know which games are or aren't compatabile, buy things to make it work, recompile game data, download things on their own, then that would be a mess.

If it's transparent for your casual gamer, even if it's complex emulation / recompilation / whatever, then it's perfectly fine.

Hell yeah, I agree. That would be retarded. Anything other than loading up the game, or maybe inserting the game and loading from an option on the dashboard, is unacceptable.

Downloading shit from Live to enable BC for instance is not a solution for this.

Watch them make it so you have to buy a new copy of the game heh.

Which would also be beyond retarded. Re-packaging and reselling "360 BC" games? :lol

 

[SpokkX]

Do you know that the recompilation just affects the executable file (max 5mb) the emulation pack can have just the xbe of each game that it can emulate.

for ex. even if the game has 3.0gb almost 95% is raw game data (gfx, sounds, etc)this files sometimes are even reused for other plataforms (there are even xbox games with directories named PS2, GC, PC .ini files for config.) the file that the xbox reads to execute the game is called "default.xbe" and so far I have yet to see one that has >5mb aprox.

this would indeed be a possibility.. you just download the execubable.. and then it reads all textures, sounds et c from your old xbox1 dvd-game..

although.. if done this way.. it won´t be many xbox1 games that are compatible.. since it means they have to do it specifically for every single game..

future xbox1 games maybe contain compiled program files for both xb1 and xb360 though..

 

[Unison]

Which would also be beyond retarded. Re-packaging and reselling "360 BC" games? :lol

That's not BC. That's a port. :lol


The reason why BC is such an issue to me is because I am assuming my Xbox will die in a few years because it has a hard drive built in & those tend to fail after 5 years or so...

 

[FiRez]

this would indeed be a possibility.. you just download the execubable.. and then it reads all textures, sounds et c from your old xbox1 dvd-game..

although.. if done this way.. it won´t be many xbox1 games that are compatible.. since it means they have to do it specifically for every single game..

future xbox1 games maybe contain compiled program files for both xb1 and xb360 though..

Yes, MS already said that they will work in the emulation post the launch of the X360 also take in consideration that the XDK and other libraries are very stable and there are few games that are programmed "to the metal".

 

[OmniGamer]

I agree with DJ_Tet...hell at one time I had my SNES, N64(since it used the same A/V plug as the SNES), Saturn and PS hooked up to a 4-way MadCatz A/V selector box...and before that if I wanted to play NES games after I got a SNES, or Genesis, I switched them as needed. I lived. More than likely, after the novelty of the first few months wears of, you'll hardly play last gen games.

 

[Nerevar]

Do you know that the recompilation just affects the executable file (max 5mb) the emulation pack can have just the xbe of each game that it can emulate.

for ex. even if the game has 3.0gb almost 95% is raw game data (gfx, sounds, etc)this files sometimes are even reused for other plataforms (there are even xbox games with directories named PS2, GC, PC .ini files for config.) the file that the xbox reads to execute the game is called "default.xbe" and so far I have yet to see one that has >5mb aprox.

But the idea of them recompiling the .xbe and redistributing it seems to clash with the other comments they made about how if they get 1 game working then a lot of other games would work too (implying they're actually buiding new libraries to emulate system calls on the original xbox).

 

[KingV]

The way the article is written, this sounds like a big rumour. There's no source. From what I read in one of the many X360 interviews (I think it was Mahlberg or something like that), he made it sound like they were going to try to generate compatibility with top-selling games like Halo, and halo 2 and then that compatibility in turn will enable X amount of other games to be compatible. The idea being that you get some of the most technologically advanced games emulated on the system, then a lot of other games should also work too.

 

[SpokkX]

The way the article is written, this sounds like a big rumour. There's no source. From what I read in one of the many X360 interviews (I think it was Mahlberg or something like that), he made it sound like they were going to try to generate compatibility with top-selling games like Halo, and halo 2 and then that compatibility in turn will enable X amount of other games to be compatible. The idea being that you get some of the most technologically advanced games emulated on the system, then a lot of other games should also work too.

yeah that´s what I thought also

kind of the way UltraHLE emulated N64 while the N64 was still at its peak

 

[FiRez]

But the idea of them recompiling the .xbe and redistributing it seems to clash with the other comments they made about how if they get 1 game working then a lot of other games would work too (implying they're actually buiding new libraries to emulate system calls on the original xbox).

That's why I remarked the stability of the xdk, maybe not all the games will need a new default.xbe file.

The way the article is written, this sounds like a big rumour. There's no source. From what I read in one of the many X360 interviews (I think it was Mahlberg or something like that), he made it sound like they were going to try to generate compatibility with top-selling games like Halo, and halo 2 and then that compatibility in turn will enable X amount of other games to be compatible. The idea being that you get some of the most technologically advanced games emulated on the system, then a lot of other games should also work too.

I remember reading that MS recommended to the devs to not program to hardware level (just if it's necesary) or use external tools, because MS started to work in a emulation software for the X360 for sometime ago and they don't wanted too have incompatibilities created by 3rd software or incorrect memory adresses.

 

[SKOPE]

One thing that can be said, is that Microsoft has brought a certain amount of this on themselves. They've been developing this for years and knew they were going with ATI & IBM vs NVidia and Intel. So, in those years time, they haven't been able to get BC working and it's unlikely it will be the kind of BC we've seen before by November. Now part of that is having working silicon, but part of it just seems to be that they're extremely rushed to get this system out the door by Christmas and have a hell of a lot of work to do in the next 6 months.

Do you think Microsoft acquired Virtual PC from Connectix just to have another line of products to sell to Mac users?

 

[Argyle]

Hahahaha, I called this (privately, with a few friends)...wasn't sure enough on it to post it publically since I was speculating that they might do this, but wasn't sure that they would go this route. We'll see if this article is accurate in a few months.

I foresee this working by having the OS detect the game in the tray, then checking XBL to see if a recompiled xbe is available, and if so, downloading it to the HDD (so next time it won't need to check) and launching it. Game assets would be loaded off the original Xbox 1 DVD.

Advantages:

1. Mitigates launch risks (MS doesn't have to spend time building a software emulator that can run every game, along with all the testing that requires)
2. Shifts QA burden back to the publishers (who are going to be responsible for recompiling the games)
3. Compatibility potentially more accurate than a generic software emulator.

Disadvantages:

1. If the publisher went tits up...too bad.
2. If the publisher didn't make money on a niche title...too bad.
3. No internet connection? Too bad.
4. If the publisher doesn't have a clean snapshot of the source code (this can happen, even today - more so with assets than code, but still...)...too bad. Also, I hope the X360 has a mode that will endian-swap the data for you, or the code may also need to be changed in order to load the data off the DVD correctly.

 

[xsarien]

Do you think Microsoft acquired Virtual PC from Connectix just to have another line of products to sell to Mac users?

They didn't acquire it with the XBox in mind, I'll tell you that much. They just want to sell their Windows apps to Apple users. Assuming they ever get VPC's performance up to snuff, anyway. Last time I checked it out, it wasn't too hot.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

in this case, no BC is better than halfass BC imo (even if the 'charging for BC versions of games thing isn't true, its still a halfass way MS is going about it). The point of BC is so you don't have to keep all your old systems around taking up space and cluttering the cables behind your tv. If you have to keep the Xbox1 around for SOME games, why not just keep it for all of them?

 

[Spectral Glider]

Hahahaha, I called this (privately, with a few friends)...wasn't sure enough on it to post it publically since I was speculating that they might do this, but wasn't sure that they would go this route. We'll see if this article is accurate in a few months.

I foresee this working by having the OS detect the game in the tray, then checking XBL to see if a recompiled xbe is available, and if so, downloading it to the HDD (so next time it won't need to check) and launching it. Game assets would be loaded off the original Xbox 1 DVD.

Advantages:

1. Mitigates launch risks (MS doesn't have to spend time building a software emulator that can run every game, along with all the testing that requires)
2. Shifts QA burden back to the publishers (who are going to be responsible for recompiling the games)
3. Compatibility potentially more accurate than a generic software emulator.

Disadvantages:

1. If the publisher went tits up...too bad.
2. If the publisher didn't make money on a niche title...too bad.
3. No internet connection? Too bad.
4. If the publisher doesn't have a clean snapshot of the source code (this can happen, even today - more so with assets than code, but still...)...too bad. Also, I hope the X360 has a mode that will endian-swap the data for you, or the code may also need to be changed in order to load the data off the DVD correctly.

Sounds possible.

Seems to me MS more or less wanted to totally nix the BC idea, their focus was 360 all the way. It almost sort of reminds of the Sega power base converter for the Genny to play Master System games. It was hardly available at all (or was it ever avaible?), and Sega didn't much care because their attention was more or less to start over with the Genesis as the focal point.

The BC heat from Sony and maybe Nintendo had MS scurrying for other options. Seems though that they've painted themselves into a corner now by presenting it the way they did at E3. They probably would have best been served to not address it all and if they figured it out closer to launch use it as ammunition then.

 

[dem]

It almost sort of reminds of the Sega power base converter for the Genny to play Master System games. It was hardly available at all (or was it ever avaible?), and Sega didn't much care because their attention was more or less to start over with the Genesis as the focal point.

<-- Only person I know with a power base converter
i rule

 

[KingV]

If they get Halo and Halo 2 going, I'll be pretty much happy. I know I'll be playing Halo 2 until Halo 3 comes out, even if just occasionally. The other stuff I can do without, more or less.

 

[Laguna X]

:lol :lol

Xbox games are probably more compatible with PS3 than Xbox360!

:lol Y'know, if Sony ever makes such an announcement, the forum would explode.

 

[BuckRobotron]

At this point, I'm resigned to being stuck with Xbox and 360 both hooked up in the near future. I don't want to go beyond a 4-slot switcher and would have much preferred full backwards compatibility.

I think Allard and company haven't properly judged the impact of this bc dance. It isn't necessarily negative, but it has a dampening effect on overall 360 enthusiasm for those who have no intention of suddenly stopping playing their favorite lower-profile Xbox games such as Panzer Dragoon Orta or Genma Onimusha.

 

[Fatghost]

I have to disagree. Generations before the PS2 were a clean break. I don't know why people think that they deserve backwards compatibility. We all bought the systems, I don't get the hate.


It's nice, to be sure. Is it necessary? I don't think so, but I might be in the majority.

Times have clearly changed. Sony has brought something new to the table and the majority of gamers like this change. MS can ignore what the competition is doing, but they do so at their own peril.

 

[Fatghost]

At this point, I'm resigned to being stuck with Xbox and 360 both hooked up in the near future. I don't want to go beyond a 4-slot switcher and would have much preferred full backwards compatibility.

I think Allard and company haven't properly judged the impact of this bc dance. It isn't necessarily negative, but it has a dampening effect on overall 360 enthusiasm for those who have no intention of suddenly stopping playing their favorite lower-profile Xbox games such as Panzer Dragoon Orta or Genma Onimusha.

Two things come to mind:


1. No BC would have played out better than limited BC. This BC song and dance makes MS look ill prepared.


2. A friend of mine who owns a video game store is worried about the parental backlash of Mom and Dad buying Blinx 2 for little Johnny's new X360 and then wondering why it won't work, and demanding a refund on opened software as a "defective".