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[Spainkiller]

"You're not alone. I usually avoid the gun threads now - too many paranoid nutjobs obsessed with some out-of-date 'law' on this board."

-I guess the constitution, bill of rights, is not really that important. Lets just get rid of it, after all it is old. On that note we sure do use a low of old laws. I mean some of these are from the 1950s to the 1800s.-

Or - and here's a ker-razy idea - it could be seen as an ever-progressing, modern set of guidlines that reflect the needs of today, rather than some sacred relic that's beyond criticism. After all, it's just a bit of paper.

 

[JayDubya]

Or - and here's a ker-razy idea - it could be seen as an ever-progressing, modern set of guidlines that reflect the needs of today, rather than some sacred relic that's beyond criticism. After all, it's just a bit of paper.

Actually, they're hard and fast rules, not progressing "guidelines."

If you want to change it, amend it, otherwise abide by it.

Of course, Nico probably shouldn't keep bringing it up since it has no bearing on swords in England, aside as a showing that Jefferson and Hamilton and essentially everyone believed in strong property rights, including perhaps most importantly the right to own weapons. But then, the Brits never much cared for Jefferson et. al, anyway.

 

[Nicodimas]

Or - and here's a ker-razy idea - it could be seen as an ever-progressing, modern set of guidlines that reflect the needs of today, rather than some sacred relic that's beyond criticism. After all, it's just a bit of paper.

--We should be able to spy on you if your a terrorist, We NEED to know everything you buy for the same reason,You must have a RFID chip implanted in you-again terrorist,carry ID around at all times that shows you are who you say you are, also you have no ability to properly defend yourself from us.--

~Afterall they are just rights and freedoms./shrug. If we strip them people WILL be less violent. Which means I can not die or get hurt from others. Also, that means the scary mean people will all dissapear.


>>Obviously, you get my drift. Taking away access will *never* stem the problem.

Well Jetsethero we could put chips in everyone to make them non-violent. That would solve all the problems right?
Afterall people should not really have any rights...Right Jet? Rights are a thing of the past....We are into the future.

 

[Spainkiller]

Actually, they're hard and fast rules, not progressing "guidelines."

If you want to change it, amend it, otherwise abide by it.

Of course, Nico probably shouldn't keep bringing it up since it has no bearing on swords in England, aside as a showing that Jefferson and Hamilton and essentially everyone believed in strong property rights, including perhaps most importantly the right to own weapons. But then, the Brits never much cared for Jefferson et. al, anyway.

Eh? I have nothing but respect for some of your past presidents... what I know about them, anyway. But they are men from a different time and if you can't understand how the differences between modern and old weapons necessitates a rethink of current gun law, then I'm surprised you've managed to turn your computer on. It's very, very simple.

And of course there should be no such thing as 'hard and fast rules'. Society changes rapidly, and if people aren't willing to adapt to this, it creates a stagnant, confused set of laws that do not reflect reality.

 

[ichigo kurosaki]

Er, that's... too bad? what would a normal person need a samurai sword for anyway?

 

[Nicodimas]

'And of course there should be no such thing as 'hard and fast rules'. Society changes rapidly, and if people aren't willing to adapt to this, it creates a stagnant, confused set of laws that do not reflect reality.'

Jet--Ever know what Case Law is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_law

Law is formed off this. Its something England made up

 

[JayDubya]

Er, that's... too bad? what would a normal person need a samurai sword for anyway?

In Britain? They'd make excellent home defense from a burglar with a knife. Or is that "defence?" Whatever.

Anywhere else? Why is it anyone's business what you use your money and property for if you don't hurt anyone else?

Just because the majority of people are nosy and want to interfere with questions like "What do you need _____ for?" does not mean you lose the right to have it. Or at least, it shouldn't, which is why a Republic form of government is superior to a Democracy.

 

[Spainkiller]

Or - and here's a ker-razy idea - it could be seen as an ever-progressing, modern set of guidlines that reflect the needs of today, rather than some sacred relic that's beyond criticism. After all, it's just a bit of paper.

--We should be able to spy on you if your a terrorist, We NEED to know everything you buy for the same reason,You must have a RFID chip implanted in you-again terrorist,carry ID around at all times that shows you are who you say you are, also you have no ability to properly defend yourself from us.--



~Afterall they are just rights and freedoms./shrug. If we strip them people WILL be less violent. Which means I can not die or get hurt from others. Also, that means the scary mean people will all dissapear.


>>Obviously, you get my drift. Taking away access will *never* stem the problem. Well Jetsethero we could put chips in everyone to make them non-violent. That would solve all the problems right?
Afterall people should not really have any rights...Right Jet? Rights are a thing of the past....

Oh right, terrorists. What has that got to do with anything I said? I'm talking about that musty bit of parchment that people see as some sort of holy text, and their refusal to acknowledge that it's out of date.

Anyway, I don't see how taking away the right for people to brandish lethal tools has anything to do with hypothetical chips that would surprese people's anger. Or spying on terrorists. In fact, one minute you're talking about taking away people's rights to merely exist in a society that hasn't already marked them as guilty for terrorism - whatever this handy, catch-all statement might mean to you - and the next you're suggesting that I'm against people having rights?

 

[Spainkiller]

In Britain? They'd make excellent home defense from a burglar with a knife.

They'd probably cause more harm to themselves than anybody else.

Anyway, for the record, I'm against the banning of owning such items. Carrying them in the street, though (unless there are certain circumstances - on the way to lessons or whatever), that's nutty behaviour.

 

[Spainkiller]

'And of course there should be no such thing as 'hard and fast rules'. Society changes rapidly, and if people aren't willing to adapt to this, it creates a stagnant, confused set of laws that do not reflect reality.'

Jet--Ever know what Case Law is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_law

Law is formed off this. Its something England made up

IN THAT CASE I MUST DEFEND IT!

 

[captainbiotch]

Er, that's... too bad? what would a normal person need a samurai sword for anyway?

So you're fine with the government coming into your life and telling you what you can't have cause you don't need it? I'm sure you enjoy lots of things you don't need.

"But but but its a weapon!! its for killing!!" and the same terrible points repeat ad naseam...

 

[Nicodimas]

Jet your against the Ultimate Right. The right of a person to defend themselves against an evil agressor.

Tools are just that. You want to strip the tools available. Making the previous law-abiding citizens criminals.

 

[Spainkiller]

In Britain? They'd make excellent home defense from a burglar with a knife. Or is that "defence?" Whatever.

Anywhere else? Why is it anyone's business what you use your money and property for if you don't hurt anyone else?

Just because the majority of people are nosy and want to interfere with questions like "What do you need _____ for?" does not mean you lose the right to have it. Or at least, it shouldn't, which is why a Republic form of government is superior to a Democracy.

Never mind the millions of people around the world who get completely ****ed over!

 

[JayDubya]

If I lived in a bad part of town here in Texas, I'd want to own a shotgun for home defense and a handgun to conceal and take with me. As is, I now live in a no-crime little suburb and right down from the street from the police department. My wrench and meat cleaver will have to suffice for now.

As soon as I buy a gun, I will be responsible and get training courses and a permit, as well as a secure safe to put it up in. I hope to never have to use it, but I want it just in case. If it were just me I had to worry about, I'm a big guy, I could take my chances, but not with a wife and daughter in the house, not anymore.

Now, if I lived in a high-crime part of town somewhere in the U.K.? I'd want a sharp knife, and possibly some sort of martial arts training, including the possibility of kendo and a nice sharp katana. Or perhaps something more in keeping with the West, martial training with a longsword.

 

[Spainkiller]

Jet your against the Ultimate Right. The right of a person to defend themselves against an evil agressor.

Tools are just that. You want to strip the tools available. Making the previous law-abiding citizens criminals.

Rather than a bunch of timebombs walking the streets looking for some imaginary 'evil agressor'.

'Evil' doesn't exist. Having a gun/sword isn't going to make self-defence any more effective, simply up the ante for the agressor to use a tool that's even more dangerous. Youre all just afraid of people taking away your toys that cause untold amount of misery in the world at large. And now I'm feeling, real, actual anger at words on a screen when I should be working. BAIL.

 

[travisbickle]

In Britain? They'd make excellent home defense from a burglar with a knife. Or is that "defence?" Whatever.

What are you gonna do? Chop his head off?

That's my problem with owning weapons, it's not self defence, it's potentially killing someone because you deem the event they are doing a legitimate reason to kill them. Someone on your property, shoot them in the back, someone shagging your wife, lure them round to your house and stab them in the chest.

There are laws in place that allow a person to restrain/attack (within reason) someone on their property, but we don't have laws that allow us to own machinery to make the job easier.

 

[Nicodimas]

'Never mind the millions of people around the world who get completely ****ed over"

Prove that blanket statement.

 

[Spainkiller]

If I lived in a bad part of town here in Texas, I'd want to own a shotgun for home defense and a handgun to conceal and take with me. As is, I now live in a no-crime little suburb and right down from the street from the police department. My wrench and meat cleaver will have to suffice for now.

As soon as I buy a gun, I will be responsible and get training courses and a permit, as well as a secure safe to put it up in.

Now, if I lived in a high-crime part of town somewhere in the U.K.? I'd want a sharp knife, and possibly some sort of martial arts training, including the possibility of kendo and a nice sharp katana. Or perhaps something more in keeping with the West, martial training with a longsword.

****ing hell. So you can start dishing out justice in the street? :lol

I don't disagree with the details of your plan - keeping the gun in a safe or whatever - I disagree with the overall attitude on a fundemental level. The broad, whole feeling that you require this shit to live a normal life.

 

[Spainkiller]

'Never mind the millions of people around the world who get completely ****ed over"

Prove that blanket statement.

Hmm. The last time I posted pictures of some Iraqi child with a blown-off face I got banned.

 

[JayDubya]

What are you gonna do? Chop his head off?

That's my problem with owning weapons, it's not self defence, it's potentially killing someone because you deem the event they are doing a legitimate reason to kill them. Someone on your property, shoot them in the back, someone shagging your wife, lure them round to your house and stab them in the chest.

Like I said, I'm a fan of Castle Doctrine. If an uninvited stranger's in your home in the middle of the night, you have the right to presume they're there to do harm to you or your family, and thus you have the right to initiate force. I don't give a damn about the rights of the criminal in the act of committing a crime. If they have a weapon, they were probably hoping to catch you sleeping and kill you - they don't deserve much sympathy.

 

[Nicodimas]

'Evil' doesn't exist.


Wow Jet. You completely lost me there. I won't even continue to argue with you. You REALLY need to study history. If you knew some my personal history you would know why that just shatters me to believe that people actually think that.

Here you are:

Ordinary Men: Christopher R. Browning

 

[Spainkiller]

Like I said, I'm a fan of Castle Doctrine. If an uninvited stranger's in your home in the middle of the night, you have the right to presume they're there to do harm to you or your family, and thus you have the right to initiate force. I don't give a damn about the rights of the criminal in the act of committing a crime.

See, there. You've assumed they're a criminal. What if the person is mentally ill and hidden in your house from the hoardes of giant toothbrushes that are out to drag him into hell? You, in all your puffing, paranoid, glory, have decided that he has no rights as a human being.

 

[captainbiotch]

****ing hell. So you can start dishing out justice in the street? :lol

I don't disagree with the details of your plan - keeping the gun in a safe or whatever - I disagree with the overall attitude on a fundemental level. The broad, whole feeling that you require this shit to live a normal life.

It is not some illusion that you believe you will be struck by robbers around every corner, it is being prepared. It is insurance. Lots of people will be able to live "normal" lives without ever having to defend themselves. Then again a lot of other people will be assaulted, mugged, raped, robbed, burglarized, murdered. You can't just turn a blind eye to the bad shit that happens in life. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you are itching to shoot someone with it. You have a lot of irrational misconceptions about the whole deal.

 

[JayDubya]

And someone that is mentally ill to that degree is not a threat to me or my family? For all I know, he might just randomly think my daughter's head would look better if it wasn't attached to her body, and proceed to try and make it so.

Clearly the thing to do in that situation is to have a weapon and be ready to use it. Best used just to scare him off.

 

[Spainkiller]

'Evil' doesn't exist.


Wow Jet. You completely lost me there. I won't even continue to argue with you. You REALLY need to study history. If you knew some my personal history you would know why that just shatters me to believe that people actually think that.

Here you are:

Ordinary Men: Christopher R. Browning

And you've lost me. Existence, with its inumerable factors that influence every single choice that a human being makes, both self-created and not, the uncountable states that they can exist in, and there's one underlying, all-ruling 'force' that controls them. We don't live in a fairy tale. There's no Good vs. Evil. There are people.

 

[travisbickle]

If an uninvited stranger's in your home in the middle of the night, you have the right to presume they're there to do harm to you or your family

I think that's where we'll end it, you've obviously got a different opinion about the human race as a whole, I'd personally think they were there to nick the TV. Also the only person that's come into my house in the middle of the night was the poor elderly guy on my street that was lost, should've shot him in the face.

 

[JayDubya]

I disagree. I don't believe in God but I do believe in morality, good and evil. You have free will, you make choices in your life. Every day you choose to be a good person... or not.

I think that's where we'll end it, you've obviously got a different opinion about the human race as a whole, I'd personally think they were there to nick the TV.

Assuming that was the case, and they were there to steal my TV, I fail to see how I'm any less justified in stopping them with force. I have no idea what their motive is. Furthermore, even if I somehow know they're only there to steal property (which seems impossible in and of itself), a thief has no right to steal or trespass, whereas I do have the right to my security and property.

 

[travisbickle]

I disagree. I don't believe in God but I do believe in morality, good and evil. You have free will, you make choices in your life. Every day you choose to be a good person... or not.

And you kill the bad people?

 

[Nicodimas]

Some people just will never get it. Its about mindset. With the mindset of nobody is EVIL.

Your just making yourself out as a big target. Those are the ones the criminals feed off of.

A Victim.

They can smell you.

 

[Spainkiller]

It is not some illusion that you believe you will be struck by robbers around every corner, it is being prepared. It is insurance. Lots of people will be able to live "normal" lives without ever having to defend themselves. Then again a lot of other people will be assaulted, mugged, raped, robbed, burglarized, murdered. You can't just turn a blind eye to the bad shit that happens in life. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you are itching to shoot someone with it. You have a lot of irrational misconceptions about the whole deal.

So you're 'prepared' when you turn every corner? You either have abnormally high blood pressure, or live in Mega City-1. I can't see how you can leave a normal life while you exist in this state.

And I don't turn a blind eye to it at all. I'm aware that Bad Things Happen. But if it does happen to me, a gun or a knife under my coat is going to make little difference. I'll hand over my wallet and phone, get the shakes and get over it. Hopefully I won't get hurt. Of course, the great thing about where I live is that the attacker is extremel unlikely to own a gun.

In fact, just the other day, there was an ARU descent onto a house that blocked off a major road in the city for five hours, because the owner was suspected of owning a hand gun. Beautiful.

 

[JayDubya]

And you kill the bad people?

If the bad people break into my home or attack me on the street? Absolutely. I'm not a vigilante, I don't believe in aggression, but I sure as shit believe in self-defense, defense of innocents, and defense of my property.

The principle of non-aggression is not the principle of pacifism or victimhood. On a larger scale, it is for this reason that nations need armies.

 

[Spainkiller]

Some people just will never get it. Its about mindset. With the mindset of nobody is EVIL.

Your just making yourself out as a big target. Those are the ones the criminals feed off of.

A Victim.

They can smell you.

On the contrary. If you walk around afraid of the world then you're the victim.

 

[Nicodimas]

What a great point Jay. That might get through to them

If your so gun control crazy. Why do you not ban Police and Armys. Afterall, then nobody would kill each other right?

Feel that emotion. That thought that says that would be nuts!

Apply that on a personnel level.

 

[travisbickle]

If the bad people break into my home or attack me on the street? Absolutely.

When you say "attack on the street", do you mean if someone tried to mug you or maybe just tried to hurt you, you'd kill them? Do you carry a gun with you all the time?

 

[Spainkiller]

What a great point Jay. That might get through to them

If your so gun control crazy. Why do you not ban Police and Armys. Afterall, then nobody would kill each other right?

Feel that emotion. That thought that says that would be nuts!

Apply that on a personnel level.

Oh how I'd love to ban the army A whole world without armies. What a lovely, lovely vision. Imagine, without that nasty feeling that makes people feel the need for 'defence', where the money could go.

Of course I don't like in cloud-cuckoo land. I know that's never going to happen. But banning guns is doable, and one step towards a saner society.

Anyway, I'm losing steam. Too busy fantasising about an army-less world. I have to get on with some work!

 

[captainbiotch]

So you're 'prepared' when you turn every corner? You either have abnormally high blood pressure, or live in Mega City-1. I can't see how you can leave a normal life while you exist in this state.

And I don't turn a blind eye to it at all. I'm aware that Bad Things Happen. But if it does happen to me, a gun or a knife under my coat is going to make little difference. I'll hand over my wallet and phone, get the shakes and get over it. Hopefully I won't get hurt. Of course, the great thing about where I live is that the attacker is extremel unlikely to own a gun.

In fact, just the other day, there was an ARU descent onto a house that blocked off a major road in the city for five hours, because the owner was suspected of owning a hand gun. Beautiful.

I have guns readily available in my bedroom and my vehicle. You know how much time I spend daily thinking about shooting people? 0 minutes. Unless counter-strike counts. But you can bet if shit hit the fan I would go from 0 to prepared very quickly. You sure are full of assumptions about gun owner psychology.

If something did happen to you, a gun wouldn't help you because you have no idea how to use one. There are lots of people who have successfully defended themselves in such situations that refute what you believe. I don't intend to convince you not to be passive, just to lay off other peoples rights to defend themselves if need be.

 

[Nicodimas]

'On the contrary. If you walk around afraid of the world then you're the victim.'

You remind of that guy in Donnie Darko. Patrick Swayzes character. Ever see it?


O, Im not a victim. Im a honest man about the world. I do not Lie to myself to make myself feel better.

 

[JayDubya]

When you say "attack on the street", do you mean if someone tried to mug you or maybe just tried to hurt you, you'd kill them? Do you carry a gun with you all the time?

As I said, I live in a very low crime suburb and at this time I am not concerned enough about the risk to buy a gun. I of course, reserve that right though. I don't have to practice a right to be concerned about its restriction.

Where I used to live in Houston was having a strong crime surge as a direct result of harboring so many Katrina refugees, so I was seriously considering allocating the funds for a handgun, concealed holster, concealed carry permit, safe, and gun training courses. Then we moved.

But yes, if someone tried to mug me or attack me, I'd damn sure like to have a concealed handgun and know how to use it and fire it accurately. I can't imagine why someone wouldn't.

 

[Nicodimas]

Same here Captain. I have a Remington 870 under my bed ready to go.

Its call Cops. Warn criminal about the gun. Wait. If they enter after being warned and ID'd well...

 

[Aske]

I'll be interested to see how they differentiate 'collectors' from everyone else. Chances are it will be with some kind of expensive permit and a lot of red tape. How frustrating.

As a legitimate collector of hand made swords, I know that a lot of people start out with the cheapy chunks of sword-shaped stainless steel. They are a gateway to serious study of swords, and eventually lead to the commission of some incredible works of art. Placing a barrier in the way of sword collectors will hurt the businesses of sword makers, and the benefits to society will be minimal. When I lived in England, I was much more concerned by criminals who carried screwdrivers and knives than by those with swords. Very hard to conceal a sword - you can generally spot them before you're in range of their blades.

Less about this legislation and more in response to the a few of the above posts, here are some reasons why we might, as a culture, feel that general sword ownership should not be made illegal. These are all made by western craftsmen who depend on collectors to supply them with business. Without modern day sword enthusiasts, these pieces would not exist.

http://www.templ.net/english/weapons-antiquity_and_early_middle_age.php

http://summerchild.com/hc_dragonL6.htm

http://www.cashenblades.com/Swords.html

 

[captainbiotch]

that blue katana scabbard is absolutely gorgeous.

 

[Hitokage]

Diablos:Liberals::Nicodimas:Libertarians

*whistles*