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[Panajev2001a]

Sony PS5 Engineer: PS5 GPU is like a RDNA 1.5 Feature set. More than RDNA1 but not all the RDNA2 features.
MS Engineer: Xbox Series consoles are the only consoles with the whole RDNA2 Feature set.

Play Station Fanboys:
PS5 has RDNA3 features and everything MS added to the Xbox Series because MS engineers give Sony all their secrets plus Cerny's genius is beyond AMD's that's why Cerny developed RDNA1 to be more powerful than RDNA2.

Back to the topic at hand.
Mesh Shaders definitely improves performance on all GPU's so we can at least expect Xbox Series consoles to provide some type of boost once games start implementing Mesh shaders.

Actually said it also had features even beyond RDNA2 if you want to be pedantic about it, but that would not be convenient to the point you are making.

You can keep assuming the worst about one console and only the best about the other . I saw someone even picked up the old SW RT talking point too :/...

I am not sure that some of the people doing victory laps since mid of last year at least, all about the TFLOPS crown, are holding the moral high ground in terms of telling other people they are the ones being obsessed about dominating the performance talks.

 

[John Wick]

Sony PS5 Engineer: PS5 GPU is like a RDNA 1.5 Feature set. More than RDNA1 but not all the RDNA2 features.
MS Engineer: Xbox Series consoles are the only consoles with the whole RDNA2 Feature set.

Play Station Fanboys:
PS5 has RDNA3 features and everything MS added to the Xbox Series because MS engineers give Sony all their secrets plus Cerny's genius is beyond AMD's that's why Cerny developed RDNA1 to be more powerful than RDNA2.

Back to the topic at hand.
Mesh Shaders definitely improves performance on all GPU's so we can at least expect Xbox Series consoles to provide some type of boost once games start implementing Mesh shaders.

So which PS5 engineer said PS5 is RDNA 1.5?
What a cringe comment by an Xbox fangirl

 

[FranXico]

MS Engineer: Xbox Series consoles are the only consoles with the whole RDNA2 Feature set*

* Infinity Cache and other RDNA2 hardware features excluded from "RDNA2 featureset" definition.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I saw someone even picked up the old SW RT talking point too :/

 

[MonarchJT]

Sony PS5 Engineer: PS5 GPU is like a RDNA 1.5 Feature set. More than RDNA1 but not all the RDNA2 features.
MS Engineer: Xbox Series consoles are the only consoles with the whole RDNA2 Feature set.

Play Station Fanboys:
PS5 has RDNA3 features and everything MS added to the Xbox Series because MS engineers give Sony all their secrets plus Cerny's genius is beyond AMD's that's why Cerny developed RDNA1 to be more powerful than RDNA2.

Back to the topic at hand.
Mesh Shaders definitely improves performance on all GPU's so we can at least expect Xbox Series consoles to provide some type of boost once games start implementing Mesh shaders.

pretty much

 

[MonarchJT]

So which PS5 engineer said PS5 is RDNA 1.5?
What a cringe comment by an Xbox fangirl

you panajev2001a assurdum and some other should stop to go around to call continuously other users fanboy looking for the fight.
That leonardi called ps5 gpu an architecture between 1 and 2 is a fuckin FACT only AFTER he tried to fix what was said basically saying that architecture nomenclatures are just names. he also said there isn't any ML hw in the ps5 CU's (he never retracted this ). It doesn't matter how many times you try to erase and blurring this fact. This is reality of the facts
Accept it and go to drink something

 

[Genx3]

that is simply false.

* Infinity Cache and other RDNA2 hardware features excluded from "RDNA2 featureset" definition.

Go look at the caches on the XSX and then get back to me.

 

[FranXico]

Go look at the caches on the XSX and then get back to me.

Consoles don't have Infinity Cache LOL

 

[Genx3]

So which PS5 engineer said PS5 is RDNA 1.5?
What a cringe comment by an Xbox fangirl

The guy that designed the PS5.
It was all over the internet when he stated it then found out it created a Fanboy shit storm with people like yourself so he then deleted it.

By the way the bolded comment is pathetic and says more about how butt hurt you are than anything else.

 

[John Wick]

The guy that designed the PS5.
It was all over the internet when he stated it then found out it created a Fanboy shit storm with people like yourself so he then deleted it.

By the way the bolded comment is pathetic and says more about how butt hurt you are than anything else.

I thought Mark Cerny designed the console?
Again making shit up!
Xbox fangirl: Selective truths, 12 teraflops, 40% more power, 4K native at 60fps on AAA games, tools aren't ready, API is new, MS were waiting for AMD and full RDNA feature set even though it was finalised at least 12-18 months beforehand, Devs were paid by Sony, Anything MS say is true, Anything Sony say is false......and on it goes....................................
Aww are you crying again?

 

[John Wick]

you panajev2001a assurdum and some other should stop to go around to call continuously other users fanboy looking for the fight.
That leonardi called ps5 gpu an architecture between 1 and 2 is a fuckin FACT only AFTER he tried to fix what was said basically saying that architecture nomenclatures are just names. he also said there isn't any ML hw in the ps5 CU's (he never retracted this ). It doesn't matter how many times you try to erase and blurring this fact. This is reality of the facts
Accept it and go to drink something

So what is an architecture between 1 and 2? Because there is no AMD RDNA1.5 that is the FACT. No one has mentioned ML HW but you. He also said it has more features than RDNA2 but minus one(SFS). Try answering that rather than DODGING IT. You need to give your head a shake and stop trying to twist things to suit your reality. Crying about it won't solve it

 

[MonarchJT]

So what is an architecture between 1 and 2? Because there is no AMD RDNA1.5 that is the FACT. No one has mentioned ML HW but you. He also said it has more features than RDNA2 but minus one(SFS). Try answering that rather than DODGING IT. You need to give your head a shake and stop trying to twist things to suit your reality. Crying about it won't solve it

SFS is not a rdna2 feature, is a customization exclusive of xsx. You talking probably about SF (are two different things) but no, Sampler Feedback is in rdna1 already so it ain't this one, we don't know what he was alluding at

Again for the second time ...this happened in another tweet , he is clearly implying that being based on NAVI architecture the ps5 gpu (navi is rdna 1) it doesn't have any support in the CU's for MachineLearning. We know that all RDNA2 ( that are called also BIG NAVI ...or navi x2) gpu have it ..and it is also on xsx and xss

i can repeat those facts until you accept the reality

 

[FatKingBallman]

SFS is not a rdna2 feature, is a customization exclusive of xsx. You talking probably about SF (are two different things) but no, Sampler Feedback is in rdna1 already so it ain't this one, we don't know what he was alluding at

Again for the second time ...this happened in another tweet , he is clearly implying that being based on NAVI architecture the ps5 gpu (navi is rdna 1) it doesn't have any support in the CU's for MachineLearning. We know that all RDNA2 ( that are called also BIG NAVI ...or navi x2) gpu have it ..and it is also on xsx and xss

i can repeat those facts until you accept the reality

Fact is that the PS5 architect Cerny said PS5 GPU is RDNA 2.
Fact is Leonardi didn't said at all the PS5 GPU is RDNA1 based like YOU CLAIMED
Fact is this engineer also said that PS5 GPU is RDNA 2. You should stop spreading crap

 

[SlimySnake]

MS Engineer: Xbox Series consoles are the only consoles with the whole RDNA2 Feature set.

MS Engineer is lying because Infinity Cache is the most important RDNA 2 feature which the xsx does not have.

Dont fall for PR by either firm.

As for the PS5 not supporting machine learning, it was said to support machine learning in the second wired article.

"I could be really specific and talk about experimenting with ambient occlusion techniques, or the examination of ray-traced shadows," says Laura Miele, chief studio officer for EA. "More generally, we're seeing the GPU be able to power machine learning for all sorts of really interesting advancements in the gameplay and other tools."

Exclusive: A Deeper Look at the PlayStation 5

Now that the name is official, we've got more details about Sony's next-gen console—from the haptics-packed controller to UI improvements.

www.wired.com

You also need to understand just how basic the machine learning capabilities of the xsx really are. There is no tensor core equivalent in there.

 

[John Wick]

MS Engineer is lying because Infinity Cache is the most important RDNA 2 feature which the xsx does not have.

Dont fall for PR by either firm.

As for the PS5 not supporting machine learning, it was said to support machine learning in the second wired article.

"I could be really specific and talk about experimenting with ambient occlusion techniques, or the examination of ray-traced shadows," says Laura Miele, chief studio officer for EA. "More generally, we're seeing the GPU be able to power machine learning for all sorts of really interesting advancements in the gameplay and other tools."

Exclusive: A Deeper Look at the PlayStation 5

Now that the name is official, we've got more details about Sony's next-gen console—from the haptics-packed controller to UI improvements.

www.wired.com

You also need to understand just how basic the machine learning capabilities of the xsx really are. There is no tensor core equivalent in there.

How dare you? The SX has better than Tensor core ML. MS made deep customisations for the GPU, they waited for full and true RDNA2 spec.

 

[John Wick]

it's wrote there ...just read in my previous post NAVI based mean rdna1...my god
and he said it two times in different moment and about differnt things
Matt H. is just saying that you can't call ps5 gpu just rdna1 like that guy is doint...because sony modify it a lots .So like Leonardi said ps5 gpu is more something in between. 1.5
But do you see the picture or are you deliberately being dull?

Navi = rdna1 - no ml stuff in the cu
Big Navi = rdna2 - ml support

So the new fud is HW ML?
Can you show me the RDNA1.5 spec or the one between RDNA1 and 2? It doesn't exist because AMD never made one. It's either RDNA1 or RDNA2. There is no hypothetical 1.5

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Actually said it also had features even beyond RDNA2 if you want to be pedantic about it, but that would not be convenient to the point you are making.

You can keep assuming the worst about one console and only the best about the other . I saw someone even picked up the old SW RT talking point too :/...

I am not sure that some of the people doing victory laps since mid of last year at least, all about the TFLOPS crown, are holding the moral high ground in terms of telling other people they are the ones being obsessed about dominating the performance talks.

I think we all know that what the now fired engineer said was damage control after getting in trouble for saying a little too much. I'm sure there are tweaks/customizations here and there that are important for where sony's first parties and where third parties want to take games, and those are sure to be important in their own way, I don't discount that. But it doesn't appear as if there is much in the way of any major new graphics feature capability besides ray tracing and primitive shaders, with primitive shaders being the headline feature offered up by the PS5 Geometry Engine.

Happy to be wrong, but doubt it. Microsoft just from the start clearly look as if they took a more aggressive GPU strategy with Series X. There's no panic on either side, both have amazing hardware, but these investments will end up paying off.

 

[Chris_Rivera]

Wait, the engineer actually got fired? I would not be completely surprised, but dang. It was clear he had no authority to speak (predicated the statements by basing it on public info and also ended up taking it all back says a lot). But who knows.

I think it's clear both are based on rdna2. you simply can't hit 2+ Ghz on rdna1.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Someone who actually knows what they're talking about, LGamer2 is a tech ENTHUSIAST to say the least, he's followed by DF's Alex and NX Gamer as well.

PS5 Has VRS, Confirms Activision Lead Artist

Despite not having been officially acknowledged, PlayStation 5 will indeed be fully utilizing Variable Rate Shading (VRS) for next-generation games. In a

segmentnext.com

Principal Software Engineer on PS5.

Want to see me destroy your entire argument believing the Principal Software Engineer on PS5 confirmed that it has VRS?



And then here is that same Principal Software Engineer on PS5 agreeing with *gasp* me...

So remove that tweet from your arsenal. He already confirmed back in August of last year that his tweet was not at all a confirmation of VRS on PS5.

 

[ethomaz]

Man is this Monarch a parody account.

He say something
Next post he says he never that
Next post he says again
Next post he says he never said that again

 

[SenjutsuSage]

We know this is not true so I am not sure why you peddle in lies.

Your argument is that a geometry engine is a geometry engine. A car is a car. A compute unit is a compute unit. There is no difference between a Porsche and a Skoda - they are both cars. Right...

The geometry engine in the PS5 is very different beast - it is the heart of the customisations that have been made to that GPU. To deny that is plain stupid.

Will it offer great new performance or is its fate to become a new PS3 cell processor story? That is the question.

Nobody denies Primitive Shaders will offer great performance uplift on the PS5. In fact, it's will be the source of the biggest/most impressive achievements on PS5 if/when first party studios end up utilizing it. I've just been saying it isn't as advanced as Mesh Shaders. The PS5 Geometry Engine is a different beast you say, but in reality 1st gen RDNA such as RX 5700/RX 5700 XT both have that same geometry engine with primitive shaders support. Cerny in no way said anything that gives off the impression it goes any further than the Geometry Engine that's available on AMD's RX 5700 Series. Just because it isn't some fancy RDNA3 feature doesn't make it useless or "old." It's still very much awesome new capability that will make games better, and no existing game on the market uses it or mesh shaders to my knowledge.

I'm not denying it's a great feature. I'm just saying AMD has moved on to something a bit better and more revolutionary in its change to the geometry pipeline because it doesn't seem have any use for the Input Assembler or even the fixed function tesselation hardware of the GPU unlike Primitive Shaders which appears to still use both of those: Mesh Shaders is what AMD moved on to because it appears to just plain be better. Primitive Shaders doesn't appear to have the same power and flexibility of Mesh Shaders, and is probably more of a stepping stone to Mesh Shaders. If I'm wrong I accept it, but it does not appear that way.

You guys are wasting your time with that clown. I don't know why the mods let him back after being permabanned. He'll just shit up threads again.

First of all, I've NEVER not once been permabanned here. I was just not posting by choice.

Oh God. If only people would stop to talk as MS PR marketing man and use the logic. Mesh shaders isn't it something impossible to have without the RDNA2 direct support. The only reason because Sony usen't it in the RDNA2 architecture, it's because it prefers a low API access (as VRS) with its GE than a generic one. It's not that complicate to grasp. If you don't see a similarity in the GE feature mentioned by Cerny (triangles replaced by shaders), probably you missed the point of tech as mesh shaders. And another particular: mesh shaders is exclusively tied to CUs number in the AMD profile. Cerny already said doesn't like too much higher CUs counts in a machine because they don't work well with subtriangles, that's why I suspect, not want to leave such operations just to the CUs (the exact opposite philosophy of AMD).
The "RDNA3" conjecture was born just because many developers have reported the GE inside the ps5 is so advanced than AMD could copy some features inside the next RDNA3 architecture. It's surely a stretch but not that impossible.

It has nothing to do with PR marketing terms. And way to accuse me of marketing speak and then recycle the absolute garbage regarding higher CU counts somehow being bad for videogame graphics rendering. That was the real marketing speak to explain away the smaller GPU, same way Microsoft had their turn doing the same back during Xbox One next to the PS4. The Geometry Engine and its Primitive Shader feature is something that enjoys use in no videogame in existence, so of course developers now having the opportunity to code for a closed system with a guaranteed featureset and spec across what will surely be a massive userbase is exciting for them all. There's benefit to them investing in Primitive Shaders now, not so much before

You're trying to make a default RDNA feature since RX 5700 series seem more special than what it is by referring to the one that already existed as generic. The Geometry Engine inside PS5 is likely to be no more special than what was already inside RX 5700XT. Just as Xbox Series X's Mesh Shading Geometry Engine is likely to be no more special in comparison to what's in PC RDNA 2. Calling any of these things "generic" just because Sony doesn't appear to support it isn't much of an argument. It's just lazy. It only weakens your argument.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I think we all know that what the now fired engineer said was damage control after getting in trouble for saying a little too much.

Sure, of course the "positive" part was damage control . "We" all "know" that. Epic praises Sony's I/O solution = "Sony bought the praise", the GPU has one features missing in RDNA2 and some features beyond = "Damage control"...

I'm sure there are tweaks/customizations here and there that are important for where sony's first parties and where third parties want to take games, and those are sure to be important in their own way, I don't discount that. But it doesn't appear as if there is much in the way of any major new graphics feature capability besides ray tracing and primitive shaders, with primitive shaders being the headline feature offered up by the PS5 Geometry Engine.

Happy to be wrong, but doubt it. Microsoft just from the start clearly look as if they took a more aggressive GPU strategy with Series X. There's no panic on either side, both have amazing hardware, but these investments will end up paying off.

I am not sure you can call Sony's strategy less aggressive, although yes they dedicated less transistors to it, considering the efforts in getting the clocks strategy to work and getting the design to clock that high in the first place. Sony does have a history of cherry picking items that AMD does not have on their desktop card of the time yet and work with AMD on customisations over just raw power (see both PS4 and PS4 Pro GPU).
I do not think the enhancement Sony worked with AMD on Geometry Engine wise is related to primitive shaders, but a step ahead in the pipeline and to make something that was hard coded programmable and better resources. Other customisations I guess went in reducing the bandwidth needs and allowing to stream data through efficiently.

 

[FranXico]

So remove that tweet from your arsenal. He already confirmed back in August of last year that his tweet was not at all a confirmation of VRS on PS5.

If this "sage" understood what the guy said, he wouldn't be using those tweets in his arsenal either.

Too many geniuses here, ignoring them and bailing out of this thread...

 

[longdi]

Sure, of course the "positive" part was damage control . "We" all "know" that. Epic praises Sony's I/O solution = "Sony bought the praise", the GPU has one features missing in RDNA2 and some features beyond = "Damage control"...


I am not sure you can call Sony's strategy less aggressive, although yes they dedicated less transistors to it, considering the efforts in getting the clocks strategy to work and getting the design to clock that high in the first place. Sony does have a history of cherry picking items that AMD does not have on their desktop card of the time yet and work with AMD on customisations over just raw power (see both PS4 and PS4 Pro GPU).
I do not think the enhancement Sony worked with AMD on Geometry Engine wise is related to primitive shaders, but a step ahead in the pipeline and to make something that was hard coded programmable and better resources. Other customisations I guess went in reducing the bandwidth needs and allowing to stream data through efficiently.

It does seems SX has the more advanced GPU, so i wont be surprise if UE5 games runs better on it.
I also think the Sony customisation works with Amd, is as speculated, and likely the cache scrubbers and the I/O parts on the gpu. We should be seeing them in rDNA3 to take on RTX i/o.
Until mark cerny tells us more, we can only second guess. He has taken a more uptight route with ps5, feels like somethings he do not want us to know.
But he did talk more about cache scrubbers things!

 

[SlimySnake]

I do not think the enhancement Sony worked with AMD on Geometry Engine wise is related to primitive shaders, but a step ahead in the pipeline and to make something that was hard coded programmable and better resources. Other customisations I guess went in reducing the bandwidth needs and allowing to stream data through efficiently.

The way i look at it is simple. If Sony had mesh shaders, Cerny wouldve said the PS5 GPU supports mesh shaders instead of just saying it support primitive shaders. If the PS5 supported VRS, he wouldve listed it right next to the ray tracing features on the road to ps5 talk.

I mean it's really as simple as that. Sony for one reason or another chose not to include those features and tbh, we wont know until 2023 or 2024 what difference they will make. If any. PS5 looks to be the lead console and who knows, maybe devs will just use primitive shaders as standard and leave it at that. But I dont think it's fair to say that sony is using something even more advanced than primitive shaders since mesh shaders are advanced primitive shaders and sony never claimed that they support them.

The nonsense about the PS5 not being RDNA 2.0 on the other hand is quite astounding because if the PS5 was RDNA1.0 like the 5700, you would not be getting a 2.23 ghz GPU in a console. Hell, the 5700xt was barely only able to hit 2.1 ghz on nitrogen cooled PCs. It would not have ray tracing baked in if it was RDNA 1.0. I am all for the wait and see approach with xsx mesh shaders out performing ps5's primitive shaders in UE5 games but this RDNA 1 nonsense needs to stop.

 

[Free will knight]

Can mesh shaders increase raytracing performance?

Yes at least for AMD gpus due to how the RT hardware has been designed. Mesh shading culls a lot of geometry the player doesn't see reducing the amount the gpu needs to render. With Rdna2 each CU has a RT accelerator attached to it but the CU can't do both Rasterisation and RT simultaneously. So using mesh shading you can theoretically free up CUs to be used on RT from my understanding.

This of course isn't the case with Nvidia since their RT accelerator is a separate block from the shaders.

 

[CuNi]

The way i look at it is simple. If Sony had mesh shaders, Cerny wouldve said the PS5 GPU supports mesh shaders instead of just saying it support primitive shaders. If the PS5 supported VRS, he wouldve listed it right next to the ray tracing features on the road to ps5 talk.

I mean it's really as simple as that. Sony for one reason or another chose not to include those features and tbh, we wont know until 2023 or 2024 what difference they will make. If any. PS5 looks to be the lead console and who knows, maybe devs will just use primitive shaders as standard and leave it at that. But I dont think it's fair to say that sony is using something even more advanced than primitive shaders since mesh shaders are advanced primitive shaders and sony never claimed that they support them.

The nonsense about the PS5 not being RDNA 2.0 on the other hand is quite astounding because if the PS5 was RDNA1.0 like the 5700, you would not be getting a 2.23 ghz GPU in a console. Hell, the 5700xt was barely only able to hit 2.1 ghz on nitrogen cooled PCs. It would not have ray tracing baked in if it was RDNA 1.0. I am all for the wait and see approach with xsx mesh shaders out performing ps5's primitive shaders in UE5 games but this RDNA 1 nonsense needs to stop.

I think those RDNA 1.5 arguments or 2.5 arguments come from the fact that people either are pro ps5 or against ps5.

We know it has not all RDNA 2 features and some features that RDNA 2 does not have. Coming from people with a negative bias, not having full RDNA 2 means it must be lower than full 2, coming from people with positive bias it must mean its above 2 and therefore 2.5 as its better. I honestly think it's between. It doesnt have full 2 because some silicon maybe only bring benefits on pc and not console, when opting to include hw that mostly benefits consoles and maybe won't ever be part of RDNA 3,4,5 and so on. I mean isn't that what consoles were always about? Special silicon to let them punch above their class because they are locked down hardware that you can fine tune to each other components instead of the pc approach where you have to brute force through the million possible combinations.

 

[MonarchJT]

MS Engineer is lying because Infinity Cache is the most important RDNA 2 feature which the xsx does not have.

Dont fall for PR by either firm.

As for the PS5 not supporting machine learning, it was said to support machine learning in the second wired article.

"I could be really specific and talk about experimenting with ambient occlusion techniques, or the examination of ray-traced shadows," says Laura Miele, chief studio officer for EA. "More generally, we're seeing the GPU be able to power machine learning for all sorts of really interesting advancements in the gameplay and other tools."

Exclusive: A Deeper Look at the PlayStation 5

Now that the name is official, we've got more details about Sony's next-gen console—from the haptics-packed controller to UI improvements.

www.wired.com

You also need to understand just how basic the machine learning capabilities of the xsx really are. There is no tensor core equivalent in there.

there is no tensor core but support for int 4 int8 e FP8
exactly like Sony did added in the ps4pro support for fp16. You can try to run machine learning models on every gpu the problem is and will be always the speed. We could also run software raytracing useless as it is. Speed is always the problem. We exactly know the tops of the xsx
92 @int4 The ps5 has no support for lower precision, nor for different int. (at least so Leonardi said). We don't even know if it inherited fp16 from the pro

Man is this Monarch a parody account.

He say something
Next post he says he never that
Next post he says again
Next post he says he never said that again

probably like with with John wick you are too emotionally taken to accept reading a simple tweet from Leonardi. Cognitive rejection. If your arguments are over and you have had to turn to insults. well I'm sorry.

 

[SantaC]

What resolution???

4K

 

[Panajev2001a]

It does seems SX has the more advanced GPU, so i wont be surprise if UE5 games runs better on it.

Higher TFLOPS count and some features Sony does not have (SFS) and some they seem to have implemented differently (VRS, variable shading rate implemented at the Geometry Engine level).

Until mark cerny tells us more, we can only second guess. He has taken a more uptight route with ps5, feels like somethings he do not want us to know.

This is a bit FUD-y you know ? He has given a very similar route as PS4 and PS4 Pro, but has had to dumb down some things such as repeating 300x that the GPU was RDNA2 based, that they had HW accelerated RT, that architectural differences matter (it must have hurt him to type PS4/GCN FLOPS != PS5/RDNA2 FLOPS which is meaningless but unfortunately caught on with so many people as a way to understand efficiency ...).

 

[Panajev2001a]

there is no tensor core but support for int 4 int8 e FP8
exactly like Sony did added in the ps4pro support for fp16. You can machine learning on every gpu the problem is the speed. We could also run software raytracing useless as it is. Speed is always the problem. The ps5 has no support for lower precision, nor for different int. (at least so Leonardi said). We don't even know if it inherited fp16 from the pro

FP16 RPM is not an optional feature even in RDNA1, INT4/8 was (not for RDNA2 apparently).

BTW, do you have an explanation why MS announced CU efficiency gain of the same value as AMD's jump GCN to RDNA1 and not GCN to RDNA2 yet ?

 

[Panajev2001a]

The way i look at it is simple. If Sony had mesh shaders, Cerny wouldve said the PS5 GPU supports mesh shaders instead of just saying it support primitive shaders. If the PS5 supported VRS, he wouldve listed it right next to the ray tracing features on the road to ps5 talk.

I mean it's really as simple as that. Sony for one reason or another chose not to include those features and tbh, we wont know until 2023 or 2024 what difference they will make. If any. PS5 looks to be the lead console and who knows, maybe devs will just use primitive shaders as standard and leave it at that. But I dont think it's fair to say that sony is using something even more advanced than primitive shaders since mesh shaders are advanced primitive shaders and sony never claimed that they support them.

The nonsense about the PS5 not being RDNA 2.0 on the other hand is quite astounding because if the PS5 was RDNA1.0 like the 5700, you would not be getting a 2.23 ghz GPU in a console. Hell, the 5700xt was barely only able to hit 2.1 ghz on nitrogen cooled PCs. It would not have ray tracing baked in if it was RDNA 1.0. I am all for the wait and see approach with xsx mesh shaders out performing ps5's primitive shaders in UE5 games but this RDNA 1 nonsense needs to stop.

I think Sony's customisations in the Geometry Engine are the key to their approach to mesh shaders (the part that does not run on the shader array) and VRS (concept of multi resolution render targets was there on PS4 Pro already btw, which is very similar to Tier 0.9 if you wanted to call it something, especially with their work on VR I would expect them to see the worth of generating a shading rate map dynamically which is essentially Tier 2).

 

[DonJuanSchlong]

So guys, here how it goes.

PC gamers strap yourself into the driver's seat, and just watch the console wars from the comfort of your car.

 

[MonarchJT]

FP16 RPM is not an optional feature even in RDNA1, INT4/8 was (not for RDNA2 apparently).

BTW, do you have an explanation why MS announced CU efficiency gain of the same value as AMD's jump GCN to RDNA1 and not GCN to RDNA2 yet ?

because there are plenty information about it. xbox series console have rdna2 CU's. I'll ask about it let's see if someone of them answer

 

[muteZX]

Higher TFLOPS count and some features Sony does not have (SFS) and some they seem to have implemented differently (VRS, variable shading rate implemented at the Geometry Engine level).

Sampler Feedback Streaming (SFS). Just another fancy name for a very old tech, isnt it ..

Hardware-Implemented Virtual Texturing. As a result of this uprising, partial hardware support for the virtualization pipeline seems to be usable in the near future. Video cards using AMD's Graphics Core Next architecture such as the Radeon HD 7970 offer a redesigned fragment shader stage as well as support for partially resident textures [Bilodeau et al. 2012] through the AMD sparse texture extension. With these it is possible to define a large-scale texture with only partial allocation. For the use in virtual textures, they could make indirection texture and tile cache obsolete, as all visible tiles can be stored right in the sparse texture.If the virtual texture coordinates can be used to access the partially resident texture through an internal texture coordinate translation, the whole virtualization step can be done by the hardware.

 

[longdi]

Sampler Feedback Streaming (SFS). Just another fancy name for a very old tech, isnt it ..

Hardware-Implemented Virtual Texturing. As a result of this uprising, partial hardware support for the virtualization pipeline seems to be usable in the near future. Video cards using AMD's Graphics Core Next architecture such as the Radeon HD 7970 offer a redesigned fragment shader stage as well as support for partially resident textures [Bilodeau et al. 2012] through the AMD sparse texture extension. With these it is possible to define a large-scale texture with only partial allocation. For the use in virtual textures, they could make indirection texture and tile cache obsolete, as all visible tiles can be stored right in the sparse texture.If the virtual texture coordinates can be used to access the partially resident texture through an internal texture coordinate translation, the whole virtualization step can be done by the hardware.

SFS, VRS, RPM, ML and Mesh Shaders might be 'old' tech, but i assume they have been refined and powered up in rDNA2, and will continue their upsizing for rDNA3 and so forth.

No need to donwplay as 'fancy names'

 

[Panajev2001a]

because there are plenty information about it. xbox series console have rdna2 CU's. I'll ask about it let's see if someone of them answer

Cool, PS5 has RDNA2 CU's too , you also seem to assume nothing else in the GPU matter especially clock speed, but that is another story.

Care to answer about the efficiency jump MS claimed for XSX's CU being in line with the GCN to RDNA1 jump and not with the GCN to RDNA2 one (the one you have been dodging since you called that tweet by the AND leaker BS)?

 

[Panajev2001a]

SFS, VRS, RPM, ML and Mesh Shaders might be 'old' tech, but i assume they have been refined and powered up in rDNA2, and will continue their upsizing for rDNA3 and so forth.

No need to donwplay as 'fancy names'

No need to make them up as trump cards/saviours hiding behind fancy names / code words either .

 

[muteZX]

SFS, VRS, RPM, ML and Mesh Shaders might be 'old' tech, but i assume they have been refined and powered up in rDNA2, and will continue their upsizing for rDNA3 and so forth.

No need to donwplay as 'fancy names'

I would say it's the other way around. GPU can contain many HW features waiting to be exposed via the DirectX API. In the case of the PS5 GPU, where there are no DX limits or MS patronage, you can and will certainly go far beyond the DX12 options. SFS is a fancy MS name. Bidirectional sparse virtual textures streaming engine can be another. BSVTSE by SONE. Wonderful.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Sampler Feedback Streaming (SFS). Just another fancy name for a very old tech, isnt it ..

Hardware-Implemented Virtual Texturing. As a result of this uprising, partial hardware support for the virtualization pipeline seems to be usable in the near future. Video cards using AMD's Graphics Core Next architecture such as the Radeon HD 7970 offer a redesigned fragment shader stage as well as support for partially resident textures [Bilodeau et al. 2012] through the AMD sparse texture extension. With these it is possible to define a large-scale texture with only partial allocation. For the use in virtual textures, they could make indirection texture and tile cache obsolete, as all visible tiles can be stored right in the sparse texture.If the virtual texture coordinates can be used to access the partially resident texture through an internal texture coordinate translation, the whole virtualization step can be done by the hardware.

I am aware of virtual texturing, people have been at it with texture streaming since before the PS2 days (people got very crafty with PS2 texture streaming uploading unique mip levels dynamically, etc...) and how PRT/Tiled Resources arrived to provide GPU HW support for virtual textures and handling the streaming in and out of texture data based on usage data (which SF provides HW counters on).

SFS in DX12U cards adds HW logic to provide feedback on usage/visibility of texture data, new non blocking texture sample instructions designed to ensure the texture data is prefetched in time for use, and additional texture filters to smooth level of detail transitions (as you stream in higher quality data).

SFS is an application of SF for texture streaming and MS called it initially PRT+ for the very same reason you mentioned. We are in agreement, but it is still possible that MS brought in PRT+/SFS and Sony did not or brought in a variant as they do not have exact DX PC compatibility to worry about (thank God for that too as we have more chances to see some useful yet a bit more daring customisations... XSX, not being purely a Windows PC, was also able to get some interesting customisations or early access to tech not web in Beta for PC like Direct Storage and a HW texture decompression unit, the BCPACK decoder).

 

[assurdum]

Double

 

[assurdum]

I think we all know that what the now fired engineer said was damage control after getting in trouble for saying a little too much. I'm sure there are tweaks/customizations here and there that are important for where sony's first parties and where third parties want to take games, and those are sure to be important in their own way, I don't discount that. But it doesn't appear as if there is much in the way of any major new graphics feature capability besides ray tracing and primitive shaders, with primitive shaders being the headline feature offered up by the PS5 Geometry Engine.

Happy to be wrong, but doubt it. Microsoft just from the start clearly look as if they took a more aggressive GPU strategy with Series X. There's no panic on either side, both have amazing hardware, but these investments will end up paying off.

You continue to set tech argumentation tied to the pc environment which barely are relative to the ps5 in purpose . It has been explained millions of times to you mesh shaders is just a term, already existed in Nvidia gpu before AMD introduced after in rdna2 but hearing you no way Sony has it's own solution when there are patent about it. It has been explained to you Cerny not wanted specifically some features in RDNA2 for purposes, because he wanted his personal GE (low access API) and an ex ps5 engineers has explained such GE has already something similar but nope a fired engineer is caught off the guard and he stop to talk. Christ your narrative it's always the same, you have blinded faith in whatever MS said but everything where Sony is behind is rot, it's really annoying your tone in such stuff, you clearly are partial as fuck.. Don't sell your bizzarre conjecture as fact because they are not and stop to be OT.

 

[sinnergy]

You continue to set tech argumentation tied to the pc environment which barely are relative to the ps5 in purpose . It has been explained millions of times to you mesh shaders is just a term, already existed in Nvidia gpu before AMD introduced after in rdna2 but hearing you no way Sony has it's own solution when there are patent about it. It has been explained to you Cerny not wanted specifically some features in RDNA2 for purposes, because he wanted his personal GE (low access API) and an ex ps5 engineers has explained such GE has already something similar but nope a fired engineer is caught off the guard and he stop to talk. Christ your narrative it's always the same, you have blinded faith in whatever MS said but everything where Sony is behind is rot, it's really annoying your tone in such stuff, you clearly are partial as fuck.. Don't sell your bizzarre conjecture as fact because they are not and stop to be OT.

Much like the other side anyway we are enjoying the fresh air and ice skating on lakes ! Enjoy life a little .

 

[assurdum]

Much like the other side anyway we are enjoying the fresh air and ice skating on lakes ! Enjoy life a little .

My man my post are a fraction in this thread compared to him about this matter. Just to say eh. But clearly it's my fault to give to him so much attention. That's why I updated my ignore list.

 

[assurdum]

Double post

 

[MonarchJT]

You continue to set tech argumentation tied to the pc environment which barely are relative to the ps5 in purpose . It has been explained millions of times to you mesh shaders is just a term, already existed in Nvidia gpu before AMD introduced after in rdna2 but hearing you no way Sony has it's own solution when there are patent about it. It has been explained to you Cerny not wanted specifically some features in RDNA2 for purposes, because he wanted his personal GE (low access API) and an ex ps5 engineers has explained such GE has already something similar but nope a fired engineer is caught off the guard and he stop to talk. Christ your narrative it's always the same, you have blinded faith in whatever MS said but everything where Sony is behind is rot, it's really annoying your tone in such stuff, you clearly are partial as fuck.. Don't sell your bizzarre conjecture as fact because they are not and stop to be OT.

you likely don't know what you are talking about and continue to call out ppl for bs instead of arguing with arguments. if you don't have them and you don't know what to say, you don't have to do it, I understand that you are angry but this hostility hurts you and the conversation. Sony doesn't pay you to defend them all the day long. Instead of spending time patching up their silences, the lack of informations, the words of his engineers, the events that happened, you should ask them for explanations and maybe come back here with evidence and the fact that deny the obvious the ps5 is a mix between rdna1 and 2.
If you are convinced of the opposite going against words, deeds, timing and evidences, ok you can do it nobody forces you and wants to inculcate anything but please or bring facts instead of senseless accusations ...

 

[MonarchJT]

Cool, PS5 has RDNA2 CU's too , you also seem to assume nothing else in the GPU matter especially clock speed, but that is another story.

Care to answer about the efficiency jump MS claimed for XSX's CU being in line with the GCN to RDNA1 jump and not with the GCN to RDNA2 one (the one you have been dodging since you called that tweet by the AND leaker BS)?

can you show me where are those claims and let me read about it ?

 

[FatKingBallman]

you likely don't know what you are talking about and continue to call out ppl for bs

Look who's talking. You're doing exactly the same

 

[assurdum]

you likely don't know what you are talking about and continue to call out ppl for bs instead of arguing with arguments. if you don't have them and you don't know what to say, you don't have to do it, I understand that you are angry but this hostility hurts you and the conversation. Sony doesn't pay you to defend them all the day long. Instead of spending time patching up their silences, the lack of informations, the words of his engineers, the events that happened, you should ask them for explanations and maybe come back here with evidence and the fact that deny the obvious the ps5 is a mix between rdna1 and 2.
If you are convinced of the opposite going against words, deeds, timing and three evidences, ok you can do it nobody forces you and wants to inculcate anything but please or bring facts instead of senseless accusations ...

Lol really? Ok explain to me the dramatic difference between mesh shader and triangles substitution per shaders via GE. I'm listening, Mr expert. And the fuck means a mix of RDNA1 and RDNA2. Even series X is a mix in some extents with RDNA1, it's clear you don't know of what you are talking about.
Anyway link to the Sony patent about VRS and mesh shaders (an old thread):
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/sony...d-mesh-shading-cerny-and-naughty-dog.1573877//

The patent explained exactly what mesh shaders and vrs are for, they are not named vrs or mesh shaders in Sony patent but basically it's the tech explanation of both graphic features. But I'm sure we continue to play around the terms because Sony didn't used the exact same terms of MS as always and something like this has been posted pages ago and obviously ignored.

 

[assurdum]

can you show me where are those claims and let me read about it ?

25% of boost in perfomance per CUs on series X compared the past generation reading their panels, around the 50% on ps5 looking to the Road to the ps5 video.