*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 7 - Sundays on HBO

Tiktaalik said:
Yeah potentially true...

In the book Beric's fire sword is clearly a fake parlour trick and not the real deal.

The show has made a big deal of Valyrian steel killing white walkers and being powerful stuff, and Sam stealing his Valyrian steel house sword was an obvious plot point. My bet would be that Sam and Jons Valyrian steel swords will play a significant role (perhaps Brienne's Brightroar as well?).
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The show already set up Valyrian steel swords as being super effective against White Walkers so that'll stay true in the show. Jon, Sam, Brienne and maybe Jamie will be able to one shot the White Walkers (did Jamie get Joffery's sword in the show?). But I'm guessing Beric can attack them too since I bet his sword will be retcon'd based on it's fire priorities.
 
I always thought that either Sansa or Arya would die on the show, but now I can't really figure out how that might come about.

Wild theories?
 
Speevy said:
I always thought that either Sansa or Arya would die on the show, but now I can't really figure out how that might come about.

Wild theories?
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Sansa can't die, but Arya is a dead woman walking. Arya will die killing Cersei probably. As everybody and their mothers check with the valonqar's profecy it's certainly possible.

For sure Jaime or Tyrion killing Cersei makes more poetic sense, but this is GOT, nobody gets what he wants. Unless you are a Bolton. Or Varys.
 
^ Iron Bank always gets what it wants. Clearly this white walker business is just a conspiracy by big banking to plummet the real estate values in Westeros for easy pickings.
 
I think Sansa will live. Arya will die of hypothermia.

Burt said:
Who's gonna get the sword tempered in their heart

No one ever talks about that

Shit bugs me

Even though I know it's definitely gonna be dany's dragonblood that turns regular sword into super fire sword.
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It could very well have been Ygritte for Jon and Khal Drogo for Dany. GRRM's usually not super literal with these prophecy's.
 
Turin said:
I think Sansa will live. Arya will die of hypothermia.
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Sansa and Theon survived hypothermia in season 6 after jumping into a snow bank, wading through a frozen river, and running around in the same clothes until she reached Castle Black and he reached Pyke. Arya won't be fazed.
 
Arya will find Nymeria and live out her days with her in the ruins of Winterfell after the white walkers destroy it.
 
Gnome said:
I keep seeing the idea floated around that Dany and Jon are going to be sitting together on the Iron Throne at the very end like it's the most natural and obvious end for the show. Which...feels wrong to me? I guess. I know the show has been building different promises than the books, but it just seems like it would be such a banal ending.
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My dumb idea for an ending: Jon and Dany get the throne, but then abdicate because they realize dragons and incest aren't the best cornerstones for effective rule. Sansa becomes the queen after vowing to never have any sons or daughters but her subjects. Late in her life, she tracks down Arya and Gendry, and their son becomes the new king, binding together the Baratheons and Starks into a new, non-crazy dynasty.

Only problem is good luck showing that on tv effectively.
 
I want Dany to sit on the Iron Throne to have this reaction

tumblr_ntepgdLBh51sajg7no1_r1_500.gif
 
NeoGiff said:
Sansa and Theon survived hypothermia in season 6 after jumping into a snow bank, wading through a frozen river, and running around in the same clothes until she reached Castle Black and he reached Pyke. Arya won't be phased.
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Got me there. Westerosi have some incredible genetics.
 
Goodstyle said:
Littlefinger has always wanted it too much and tried too hard. Never took him seriously as a character ever since this scene.

He's too clever. Someone who's always thinking five steps ahead, but can never see what's in front of him. If he dies, it'll be because of something obvious or stupid. A moment where you'd think "ugh, how did he miss that?!"
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In the books Cat describes Littlefinger as "... always clever, even as a boy, but it is one thing to be clever and another to be wise."

I get the feeling that between dropping all of Sansa's post-ASoS material/development and rushing to the end of the series Littlefinger just sort of ran out of relevance to the writers as soon as he left KL. There was zero logic in his Season 5 plot and then they dropped the 'I do everything for Sansa' crap at the end of season 6, which goes directly against what he was doing in season 5, where him doing nothing would have gotten him closer to that goal than marrying Sansa off.

Had they'd seeded the Ramsay/Sansa marriage before they started writing season 5 (since they claim to have had the idea since season 2) it should have played out the same way the fArya/Ramsay marriage does in the books, with Littlefinger convincing Cersei it was in the best interests of the Lannisters to strengthen their Bolton allies with a trueborn Stark and then had Littlefinger stay in King's Landing for seasons 4/5/6 and play a part in Cersei's story. Replace Qyburn as the one whispering bad advice in her ear and let him take the place of Varys from ADWD in a blatant move to replicate Tyrion's crossbow killing of Tywin and push Cersei even further, which ties up nicely with both Varys (his opposition since season 1) and Tyrion (a character well aware of how duplicitous Littlefinger really is) both turning up with Dany to take King's Landing in season 7. Obviously not perfect and would require a lot more fine tuning to make it work but it would have been better than what we got.

I'm really not looking forward to them trying to paint him as a political genius in season 7 just so Sansa can look like she 'outplayed' him when it's time for him to die. Not a spoiler btw, before anyone panicks. Just a prediction.
 
Oldest Snake said:
In the books Cat describes Littlefinger as "... always clever, even as a boy, but it is one thing to be clever and another to be wise."

I get the feeling that between dropping all of Sansa's post-ASoS material/development and rushing to the end of the series Littlefinger just sort of ran out of relevance to the writers as soon as he left KL. There was zero logic in his Season 5 plot and then they dropped the 'I do everything for Sansa' crap at the end of season 6, which goes directly against what he was doing in season 5, where him doing nothing would have gotten him closer to that goal than marrying Sansa off.

Had they'd seeded the Ramsay/Sansa marriage before they started writing season 5 (since they claim to have had the idea since season 2) it should have played out the same way the fArya/Ramsay marriage does in the books, with Littlefinger convincing Cersei it was in the best interests of the Lannisters to strengthen their Bolton allies with a trueborn Stark and then had Littlefinger stay in King's Landing for seasons 4/5/6 and play a part in Cersei's story. Replace Qyburn as the one whispering bad advice in her ear and let him take the place of Varys from ADWD in a blatant move to replicate Tyrion's crossbow killing of Tywin and push Cersei even further, which ties up nicely with both Varys (his opposition since season 1) and Tyrion (a character well aware of how duplicitous Littlefinger really is) both turning up with Dany to take King's Landing in season 7. Obviously not perfect and would require a lot more fine tuning to make it work but it would have been better than what we got.

I'm really not looking forward to them trying to paint him as a political genius in season 7 just so Sansa can look like she 'outplayed' him when it's time for him to die. Not a spoiler btw, before anyone panicks. Just a prediction.
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I think Littlefinger is in as interesting a spot as he's ever been right now. Since the beginning of the series, he's managed a clear upward progression, from brothel owner, to master of coin, to lord of Harrenhall, to presumably soon-to-be Lord of the Vale.

Delivering Sansa to the Boltons and then informing the Lannisters was supposed to be the next step in that trajectory - if the Lannisters won the resulting conflict, Littlefinger would be the obvious choice for Warden in the North, but if the Boltons won, he'd have solidified his northern alliance and the political landscape in the south would be wide open. Maybe he could've even taken on a weakened House Bolton with the knights of the Vale and 'rescued' Sansa to claim the north.

But, all that depended on Sansa being on his side. When he whiffed on his read of Ramsay Bolton, he ruined pretty much all of his plans. Now Jon Snow is back in town, Sansa despises him, and he's officially, outwardly aligned himself against the Lannisters by siding with Winterfell. For the first time in a while, maybe that we've ever seen, his plans are super fucked and his back's against the wall. I think that has plenty of potential for him to have an interesting story this season, if it's written well.
 
Starting Battle of the Bastards in my rewatch. Smalljon Umber might be the scariest person on the show to me for reasons I can't quite pin down. Other characters are bigger, do worse things, have better sword skills, but for some reason he's the actor who makes me think "I wouldn't fuck with him."

I agree Baelish's character arc is fucked up. His motivations and ability level flip back and forth every two episodes, it seems. The worst is maybe that he got played by Ramsay but his relationships toward Sansa/Catelyn's memory/Lysa are a mess too. It reminds me of Dexter falling in love at various poinfs in that series, "he's a manipulative and emotionless psychopath who right now is doing everything for love."
 
I think littlefinger's in a live or die situation this season. He can fade into obscurity (not gonna happen) or make a gambit that undermines Sansa and Jon to claw back power. Considering Jon is lined up to go the whole way in the story I don't think Littlefinger's chances of survival are hot.

At the start of the story I always viewed Littlefinger, Varys and Mellisandre as interesting characters that played similar "functions" in their respective regions. I don't think all three will be standing by the end of this season though.
 
VenomousCoffee said:
Starting Battle of the Bastards in my rewatch. Smalljon Umber might be the scariest person on the show to me for reasons I can't quite pin down. Other characters are bigger, do worse things, have better sword skills, but for some reason he's the actor who makes me think "I wouldn't fuck with him."

I agree Baelish's character arc is fucked up. His motivations and ability level flip back and forth every two episodes, it seems. The worst is maybe that he got played by Ramsay but his relationships toward Sansa/Catelyn's memory/Lysa are a mess too. It reminds me of Dexter falling in love at various poinfs in that series, "he's a manipulative and emotionless psychopath who right now is doing everything for love."
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Imagine having to hear a Baelish voice over for every other decision he makes. I like to think it'd have a different accent.
 
Littlefinger isn't primarily motivated by love. His "pretty picture" speech is about how he wants to obtain the throne and how he wants to obtain Sansa. "Me on the throne and you beside me". She's just a checkbox.
 
Brakke said:
Littlefinger isn't primarily motivated by love. His "pretty picture" speech is about how he wants to obtain the throne and how he wants to obtain Sansa. "Me on the throne and you beside me". She's just a checkbox.
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I agree, except for the couple of scenes where he is lusting after Sansa separate from her being a symbol of his power. That's my criticism.
 
Burt said:
Delivering Sansa to the Boltons and then informing the Lannisters was supposed to be the next step in that trajectory - if the Lannisters won the resulting conflict, Littlefinger would be the obvious choice for Warden in the North, but if the Boltons won, he'd have solidified his northern alliance and the political landscape in the south would be wide open. Maybe he could've even taken on a weakened House Bolton with the knights of the Vale and 'rescued' Sansa to claim the north.
Click to expand...

But in this scenario Littlefinger is technically the Lannister's horse in the race. The Boltons turned on the Lannisters after Twyin's death and Stannis is in direct opposition to the Crown. There's no "winning" for the Lannisters unless Littlefinger intervenes and sets the Vale against both Stannis & the Boltons . Knowing that, Littlefinger had no need to invest in House Bolton before the fight between them and Stannis took place. Hell, it doesn't require handing Sansa over to anyone at any point, he could just lie about it to Cersei and keep Sansa locked away in the Vale where nobody would know any different.

All Littlefinger had to do was wait and he could have achieved the same goals with none of the risk.
 
VenomousCoffee said:
I agree, except for the couple of scenes where he is lusting after Sansa separate from her being a symbol of his power. That's my criticism.
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He legitimately loves Cat, not Sansa. Sansa is him just trying to get Cat, trying to reclaim the past. He probably wanted Cat just as much as he wanted the Iron Throne, so it seems pretty obvious that his lust for her daughter is going to hurt him in the end. He's trying to "have it all", and that doesn't seem possible at this point.
 
My bet would be that Littlefinger will put the political pieces in play to elaborately position himself to be Sansa's husband and Lord of Winterfell, but he'll be completely surprised as the White Walkers move South, and he'll get killed by some random wight ghoul.

The story is eventually going to pivot from politics to a grander battle between the dead and the living. It would make sense for Littlefinger's death to be the turning point where it becomes obvious that the petty politics between the great houses doesn't actually matter.
 
Oldest Snake said:
But in this scenario Littlefinger is technically the Lannister's horse in the race. The Boltons turned on the Lannisters after Twyin's death and Stannis is in direct opposition to the Crown. There's no "winning" for the Lannisters unless Littlefinger intervenes and sets the Vale against both Stannis & the Boltons . Knowing that, Littlefinger had no need to invest in House Bolton before the fight between them and Stannis took place. Hell, it doesn't require handing Sansa over to anyone at any point, he could just lie about it to Cersei and keep Sansa locked away in the Vale where nobody would know any different.

All Littlefinger had to do was wait and he could have achieved the same goals with none of the risk.
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Which is why the Sansa marrying Ramsay plot is without question the dumbest storyline ever created in either the show or books. When "do absolutely nothing" is better, you know you've messed up.
 
Oldest Snake said:
But in this scenario Littlefinger is technically the Lannister's horse in the race. The Boltons turned on the Lannisters after Twyin's death and Stannis is in direct opposition to the Crown. There's no "winning" for the Lannisters unless Littlefinger intervenes and sets the Vale against both Stannis & the Boltons . Knowing that, Littlefinger had no need to invest in House Bolton before the fight between them and Stannis took place. Hell, it doesn't require handing Sansa over to anyone at any point, he could just lie about it to Cersei and keep Sansa locked away in the Vale where nobody would know any different.

All Littlefinger had to do was wait and he could have achieved the same goals with none of the risk.
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The Boltons didn't turn on the Lannisters after Tywin died. They were never going to break off or start a rebellion, because any semblance of legitimacy for their house to rule the North depended on Lannister legitimacy. Roose just didn't believe that the Lannisters were able to offer adequate protection from all the other houses up there, especially after the Red Wedding. He needed a Stark, but he would've preferred if the Lannisters never found out at all, or at least until he had a Stark-blooded heir. He definitely didn't want a war with the Lannisters.

If Littlefinger had waited things out, whether the Boltons or Stannis come out on top he'd be left out in the cold and the Lannisters would still be Lannistering. Forcing a conflict between the Lannisters and Boltons was what he needed to do to move up -- investing in the Boltons was just an aspect of that.

And yeah, he could've just lied to Cersei, but then like...

*Lannister army shows up at Winterfell*

"We demand you hand over the traitor Sansa Stark!"

"What?"

"Sansa Stark! We know she married Ramsay!"

"What? What are you talking about? Literally ask anyone in the North, that never happened, we don't have Sansa, come inside and look."

"Oh, okay. Welp, see ya later!"
 
Tim McInerny is simply magnificent as Robett Glover. He gives such a heartfelt and layered performance in the King in the North scene. I hope we see a lot more of him this season.
 
Burt said:
The Boltons didn't turn on the Lannisters after Tywin died. They were never going to break off or start a rebellion, because any semblance of legitimacy for their house to rule the North depended on Lannister legitimacy. Roose just didn't believe that the Lannisters were able to offer adequate protection from all the other houses up there, especially after the Red Wedding. He needed a Stark, but he would've preferred if the Lannisters never found out at all, or at least until he had a Stark-blooded heir. He definitely didn't want a war with the Lannisters.
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Ok so he didn't want a war with the Lannisters... but he happily marries the girl implicated in the assassination of the King and wanted by the Queen Regent into his family. Kinda think pissing off the Lannister is inevitable at this point. Simply going ahead with this plan is an act against the Lannisters, end of story. I don't deny that it makes sense for Roose Bolton to seek out this marriage, only that by arranging it Littlefinger puts himself at great risk for a reward he could easily achieve after Stannis has been dispatched.

Burt said:
If Littlefinger had waited things out, whether the Boltons or Stannis come out on top he'd be left out in the cold and the Lannisters would still be Lannistering. Forcing a conflict between the Lannisters and Boltons was what he needed to do to move up -- investing in the Boltons was just an aspect of that.

And yeah, he could've just lied to Cersei, but then like...

*Lannister army shows up at Winterfell*

"We demand you hand over the traitor Sansa Stark!"

"What?"

"Sansa Stark! We know she married Ramsay!"

"What? What are you talking about? Literally ask anyone in the North, that never happened, we don't have Sansa, come inside and look."

"Oh, okay. Welp, see ya later!"
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The exact same is true if he does send Sansa to Winterfell, which he does and Cersei doesn't follow up on at all. What if he sends Sansa to Winterfell and Cersei checks on it without telling Littlefinger, it's going to look pretty suspect when Roose starts namedropping Littlefinger for no good reason. That's to say nothing of Littlefinger misjudging Roose's loyalty to the Lannisters, exposing his hand too early with Sansa and implicating HIMSEFLF in Joffrey's death by harboring a fugitive from the Crown only for Roose to turn around and send Littlefinger's messages down to Cersei as a warning to her.

He "advises caution" with Cersei, telling her they should let Stannis and the Boltons fight and then take Winterfell from the weakened victor. Nothing about his plan actually requires Sansa to be inside Winterfell.
 
Seasons 1-3 Littlefinger never would have arraigned Sansa's marriage to Ramsay. He went from a mastermind to moron and hasn't recovered.
 
Stop being a bystander to tragedy. Stop running. Marry him and take back your home.

"Why don't you take it back for me? You should be able to get the knights of the Vale."

No, you have to become the lady of Winterfell. Then you can rally others to your cause.

"Can't we do that now?"

No, Stannis is about to attack Winterfell.

"That's perfect. Why don't we wait until the Boltons are distracted and seize Winterfell? Either way, Cersei will know what we did. I just stopped Yohn Royce from executing you for Lysa's murder. You owe me."

No, your brother has to be our side. He has to leave his position as lord commander of the night's watch and attack the Boltons. Then I'll help.

"Jon is lord commander of the night's watch? He can help us right now."

No, Stannis is there at Castle Black.

"Even better. Stannis can help too. With the knights of the Vale and a battle-tested commander like Stannis Baratheon, plus my brother, we can attack the Boltons on multiple fronts."

No, you must marry Ramsay. He is the legitimized heir to the knife-wielding murder house. He will make a great husband.

"What if we present Ramsay with an offer of marriage, and lure him into a trap. We can do to him what he did to my family at the Red Wedding."

I'm not sure the knights of the Vale would go for a surprise attack like that.

"Why not?"

I have to give Robin a bird. He likes birds.
 
I didn't notice this the first time around, but this nifty little cut has to be inspired by 2001, right?

7ub24XB.gif


On that note, Cornballer (or anyone else), are you aware of anyone who writes or podcasts about the show on a technical level?
 
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