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[Dr.Morris79]

No way, a new administration comes in, one that, you know, might look into public health care, and guess what?

Better fess up now we've been making everyone a retard!

It was him!

No him!

He did it!

Don't shoot!

 

[RaduN]

No conspiracy here, unless one has half brain (had toothpaste for breakfast all their childhood )

My grandma knew this in '79. I mean, it's good for you, but it's all about the dosage, just like with most other things like salt, sugar, etc. Unhealthy teeth are a source of numerous, NUMEROUS possibly lethal, health problems.

Do you people in USA or whatever, actually drink the water from your kitchen? Not smart dudebros.

 

[EviLore]

Washington Post's medical columnist, Dr. Leana Wen, has come out in favor of removing fluoride from water supplies due to the research presented above as well as additional studies cited below. Little to no benefit in cavity reduction for people who use fluoride toothpaste, too much of a risk of cognitive damage from drinking fluoridated water, particularly to fetuses in prenatal exposure. I've removed the partisan political bits at the beginning and end to focus on the science talk, can see in full at the links if desired.

Archive link
Original link
"
By Leana S. Wen
November 12, 2024 at 6:30 a.m. EST

Fluoride is a naturally occurring mineral that has long been known to prevent tooth decay. Bacteria in the mouth produce acid that dissolves the tooth’s surface, eventually leading to cavities. Fluoride replenishes lost minerals from wear and tear and strengthens dental enamel.

Since 1962, the U.S. Public Health Service has recommended adding fluoride to public drinking water. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reports that this practice has reduced cavities by about 25 percent and hails it as one of the 20th century’s 10 greatest public health achievements.

Over the years, research has shown that fluoride is not harmless. Higher levels can lead to problems such as tooth discoloration, bone deformities and thyroid diseases. In recognition of these risks, as well as the fact that most people are now getting fluoride through toothpaste, the Public Health Service lowered the recommended fluoride concentration in drinking water in 2015. In 2019, the CDC urged parents to supervise young children’s use of toothpaste to guard against excessive fluoride ingestion.

Multiple studies also show that neonatal fluoride exposure might interfere with brain development. A JAMA Pediatrics study concluded that Canadian women who drank fluoridated water during pregnancy had children with lower IQ scores at ages 3 to 4 years old. There was no statistically significant effect on girls, but IQ scores of boys born to women with higher fluoride consumption were nearly 4.5 points lower.

Another Canadian study found that exposed girls were impacted, with worse cognitive flexibility and executive function. Three studies from Mexico found a link between fluoride intake during pregnancy and a significant drop in IQ, attention-deficit/hyperactivity symptoms and cognitive development problems.

A U.S. study published this year in JAMA Network Open found that prenatal fluoride exposure was associated with children developing neurobehavioral problems. Researchers followed 229 women in the Los Angeles area from pregnancy through about the third year of their child’s life and linked higher amounts of fluoride by the expectant mothers to nearly double the odds of the child having problems such as anxiety and emotional instability.

This study, which was funded in part by the National Institutes of Health and the Environmental Protection Agency, generated significant controversy. Anti-fluoridation groups seized upon it to justify their crusade, while organizations such as the American Dental Association issued statements doubling down on the benefits of water fluoridation.

Both sides have legitimate points. The safety of low-level fluoridation has been demonstrated by decades of research, though emerging studies suggest it could be a risk to pregnant women. Moreover, although the data are clear that community fluoridation dramatically reduced cavities before fluoride toothpaste became available, the current benefit is much smaller. Indeed, a 2024 Cochrane review — considered the gold standard of medical reviews — concluded that fluoridating water today “may” lead to “slightly less” decay in kids’ teeth. “However, these results also included the possibility of little or no difference in tooth decay,” the authors wrote.

Currently, about 72 percent of Americans receive fluoridated water. At least a dozen states have laws mandating fluoridation. One — Hawaii — has banned it. Most others leave it to individual localities. Municipalities that don’t add fluoride to drinking water include Portland, Oregon, and Wichita, where voters have repeatedly rejected fluoridation proposals. Other localities have been joining them; since 2023, towns in North Carolina, Florida, Pennsylvania and Texas have decided to stop the practice.

Interestingly, most Western European countries, including Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden, have ended public water fluoridation. If Kennedy succeeds in persuading Trump to recommend against fluoridation, he would actually be aligning the United States with peer countries. That could result in a slight increase in tooth decay, but it could also benefit Americans by reducing prenatal exposure.
"

 

[Jinzo Prime]

Washington Post's medical columnist, Dr. Leana Wen, has come out in favor of removing fluoride from water supplies due to the research presented above as well as additional studies cited below. Little to no benefit in cavity reduction for people who use fluoride toothpaste, too much of a risk of cognitive damage from drinking fluoridated water, particularly to fetuses in prenatal exposure. I've removed the partisan political bits at the beginning and end to focus on the science talk, can see in full at the links if desired.

Archive link
Original link
"
By Leana S. Wen
November 12, 2024 at 6:30 a.m. EST

Fluoride is a naturally occurring mineral that has long been known to prevent tooth decay. Bacteria in the mouth produce acid that dissolves the tooth’s surface, eventually leading to cavities. Fluoride replenishes lost minerals from wear and tear and strengthens dental enamel.

Since 1962, the U.S. Public Health Service has recommended adding fluoride to public drinking water. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reports that this practice has reduced cavities by about 25 percent and hails it as one of the 20th century’s 10 greatest public health achievements.

Over the years, research has shown that fluoride is not harmless. Higher levels can lead to problems such as tooth discoloration, bone deformities and thyroid diseases. In recognition of these risks, as well as the fact that most people are now getting fluoride through toothpaste, the Public Health Service lowered the recommended fluoride concentration in drinking water in 2015. In 2019, the CDC urged parents to supervise young children’s use of toothpaste to guard against excessive fluoride ingestion.

Multiple studies also show that neonatal fluoride exposure might interfere with brain development. A JAMA Pediatrics study concluded that Canadian women who drank fluoridated water during pregnancy had children with lower IQ scores at ages 3 to 4 years old. There was no statistically significant effect on girls, but IQ scores of boys born to women with higher fluoride consumption were nearly 4.5 points lower.

Another Canadian study found that exposed girls were impacted, with worse cognitive flexibility and executive function. Three studies from Mexico found a link between fluoride intake during pregnancy and a significant drop in IQ, attention-deficit/hyperactivity symptoms and cognitive development problems.

A U.S. study published this year in JAMA Network Open found that prenatal fluoride exposure was associated with children developing neurobehavioral problems. Researchers followed 229 women in the Los Angeles area from pregnancy through about the third year of their child’s life and linked higher amounts of fluoride by the expectant mothers to nearly double the odds of the child having problems such as anxiety and emotional instability.

This study, which was funded in part by the National Institutes of Health and the Environmental Protection Agency, generated significant controversy. Anti-fluoridation groups seized upon it to justify their crusade, while organizations such as the American Dental Association issued statements doubling down on the benefits of water fluoridation.

Both sides have legitimate points. The safety of low-level fluoridation has been demonstrated by decades of research, though emerging studies suggest it could be a risk to pregnant women. Moreover, although the data are clear that community fluoridation dramatically reduced cavities before fluoride toothpaste became available, the current benefit is much smaller. Indeed, a 2024 Cochrane review — considered the gold standard of medical reviews — concluded that fluoridating water today “may” lead to “slightly less” decay in kids’ teeth. “However, these results also included the possibility of little or no difference in tooth decay,” the authors wrote.

Currently, about 72 percent of Americans receive fluoridated water. At least a dozen states have laws mandating fluoridation. One — Hawaii — has banned it. Most others leave it to individual localities. Municipalities that don’t add fluoride to drinking water include Portland, Oregon, and Wichita, where voters have repeatedly rejected fluoridation proposals. Other localities have been joining them; since 2023, towns in North Carolina, Florida, Pennsylvania and Texas have decided to stop the practice.

Interestingly, most Western European countries, including Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden, have ended public water fluoridation. If Kennedy succeeds in persuading Trump to recommend against fluoridation, he would actually be aligning the United States with peer countries. That could result in a slight increase in tooth decay, but it could also benefit Americans by reducing prenatal exposure.
"

Not even a month ago you would be called an anti-science lunatic for even considering floride to be a problem. It's crazy how fast things change.

 

[EviLore]

Not even a month ago you would be called a anti-science lunatic for even considering floride to be a problem. It's crazy how fast things change.

Yes. I'm in favor of rational thought and evaluating evidence rather than blindly dogmatic, authoritarian justifications. But I understand that the vast majority of the population doesn't read research papers and is just interested in the bottom line.

 

[Jinzo Prime]

Yes. I'm in favor of rational thought and evaluating evidence rather than blindly dogmatic, authoritarian justifications. But I understand that the vast majority of the population doesn't read research papers and is just interested in the bottom line.

I think people tend to stick to their guns and rely on outdated information a bit too much. I know I've been guilty of that!

 

[sharp weiner]

Yes. I'm in favor of rational thought and evaluating evidence rather than blindly dogmatic, authoritarian justifications. But I understand that the vast majority of the population doesn't read research papers and is just interested in the bottom line.

I feel like one would have to be a data science expert to be able to evaluate “evidence” in a rational way.

On account of the complexities of human motivations.
All information and data is biased to some extent and evidence needs to be normalized to strip that out.

It’s not easy and I can understand why humans accept things as facts and my wife thinks I’m a cynical asshole for how I don’t accept anything taken at face value as fact.

I see it as a virtue though.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Washington Post's medical columnist, Dr. Leana Wen, has come out in favor of removing fluoride from water supplies due to the research presented above as well as additional studies cited below. Little to no benefit in cavity reduction for people who use fluoride toothpaste, too much of a risk of cognitive damage from drinking fluoridated water, particularly to fetuses in prenatal exposure. I've removed the partisan political bits at the beginning and end to focus on the science talk, can see in full at the links if desired.

Archive link
Original link
"
By Leana S. Wen
November 12, 2024 at 6:30 a.m. EST

Fluoride is a naturally occurring mineral that has long been known to prevent tooth decay. Bacteria in the mouth produce acid that dissolves the tooth’s surface, eventually leading to cavities. Fluoride replenishes lost minerals from wear and tear and strengthens dental enamel.

Since 1962, the U.S. Public Health Service has recommended adding fluoride to public drinking water. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reports that this practice has reduced cavities by about 25 percent and hails it as one of the 20th century’s 10 greatest public health achievements.

Over the years, research has shown that fluoride is not harmless. Higher levels can lead to problems such as tooth discoloration, bone deformities and thyroid diseases. In recognition of these risks, as well as the fact that most people are now getting fluoride through toothpaste, the Public Health Service lowered the recommended fluoride concentration in drinking water in 2015. In 2019, the CDC urged parents to supervise young children’s use of toothpaste to guard against excessive fluoride ingestion.

Multiple studies also show that neonatal fluoride exposure might interfere with brain development. A JAMA Pediatrics study concluded that Canadian women who drank fluoridated water during pregnancy had children with lower IQ scores at ages 3 to 4 years old. There was no statistically significant effect on girls, but IQ scores of boys born to women with higher fluoride consumption were nearly 4.5 points lower.

Another Canadian study found that exposed girls were impacted, with worse cognitive flexibility and executive function. Three studies from Mexico found a link between fluoride intake during pregnancy and a significant drop in IQ, attention-deficit/hyperactivity symptoms and cognitive development problems.

A U.S. study published this year in JAMA Network Open found that prenatal fluoride exposure was associated with children developing neurobehavioral problems. Researchers followed 229 women in the Los Angeles area from pregnancy through about the third year of their child’s life and linked higher amounts of fluoride by the expectant mothers to nearly double the odds of the child having problems such as anxiety and emotional instability.

This study, which was funded in part by the National Institutes of Health and the Environmental Protection Agency, generated significant controversy. Anti-fluoridation groups seized upon it to justify their crusade, while organizations such as the American Dental Association issued statements doubling down on the benefits of water fluoridation.

Both sides have legitimate points. The safety of low-level fluoridation has been demonstrated by decades of research, though emerging studies suggest it could be a risk to pregnant women. Moreover, although the data are clear that community fluoridation dramatically reduced cavities before fluoride toothpaste became available, the current benefit is much smaller. Indeed, a 2024 Cochrane review — considered the gold standard of medical reviews — concluded that fluoridating water today “may” lead to “slightly less” decay in kids’ teeth. “However, these results also included the possibility of little or no difference in tooth decay,” the authors wrote.

Currently, about 72 percent of Americans receive fluoridated water. At least a dozen states have laws mandating fluoridation. One — Hawaii — has banned it. Most others leave it to individual localities. Municipalities that don’t add fluoride to drinking water include Portland, Oregon, and Wichita, where voters have repeatedly rejected fluoridation proposals. Other localities have been joining them; since 2023, towns in North Carolina, Florida, Pennsylvania and Texas have decided to stop the practice.

Interestingly, most Western European countries, including Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden, have ended public water fluoridation. If Kennedy succeeds in persuading Trump to recommend against fluoridation, he would actually be aligning the United States with peer countries. That could result in a slight increase in tooth decay, but it could also benefit Americans by reducing prenatal exposure.
"

I'm just glad it's okay that this is being discussed in an open mainstream forum now and not dismissed as "conspiracy theory" like it was the past 30 to 40 years. Like cigarettes and leaded fuels were at one time as well.

Removal is already starting in individual municipalities.

Winter Haven nixing fluoride from city’s water supply

At Tuesday's city commission meeting, city leaders voted to stop adding fluoride to the city's water supply.

www.abcactionnews.com

“It seemed to me like there was a potential that this was a health hazard, particularly for children, for us to take a step back and pause and remove this,” said Winter Haven Commissioner Brad Dantzler.

A federal court's decision was Dantzler’s reason for asking the City to reconsider its practices.


In September the court ruled that the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) must strengthen its regulation of fluoride in drinking water, as it poses an unreasonable risk of injury to health, especially in children.

“This fluoride had a potential to lower IQ in children, had a potential to have problems in brains for people, had potential to potentially mess with immune systems, make bones somewhat brittle. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but that’s what the concerns were of all the people that we heard from,” Dantzler said.

 

[analog_future]

What do ya'll make of the Calgary situation, where they removed fluoride from their water 8 years ago, saw the need for intravenous antibiotic therapy by children to avoid death by infection rise 700%, and that for children under five years old, the rate of dental treatments under anesthesia doubled from 22 per 100,000 in 2010-11 to 45 per 100,000 in 2018-19, and are now reversing that decision and adding fluoride back into their water in 2025?

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/calgary-...-drinking-water-pushed-back-to-2025-1.6845098


Also, what do ya'll think about the fact that in first-world countries where fluoride has been removed from the water supply, toothpaste is fluoridated at ~10x the strength compared to countries with fluorinated water (essentially to make up for the water not be fluorinated). Generally speaking, of course.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Scientific discussion is great and the right way to go about it, but this is funny:
"Canadian women who drank fluoridated water during pregnancy had children with lower IQ scores at ages 3 to 4 years old. There was no statistically significant effect on girls, but IQ scores of boys born to women with higher fluoride consumption were nearly 4.5 points lower."

and then

"Another Canadian study found that exposed girls were impacted"

XD

 

[EviLore]

What do ya'll make of the Calgary situation, where they removed fluoride from their water 8 years ago, saw the need for intravenous antibiotic therapy by children to avoid death by infection rise 700%, and that for children under five years old, the rate of dental treatments under anesthesia doubled from 22 per 100,000 in 2010-11 to 45 per 100,000 in 2018-19, and are now reversing that decision and adding fluoride back into their water in 2025?

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/calgary-...-drinking-water-pushed-back-to-2025-1.6845098


Also, what do ya'll think about the fact that in first-world countries where fluoride has been removed from the water supply, toothpaste is fluoridated at ~10x the strength compared to countries with fluorinated water (essentially to make up for the water not be fluorinated). Generally speaking, of course.

22 per 100,000 rising to 45 per 100,000, as compared to 100,000 out of 100,000 being brain damaged when the government enforces its policy. They're helping outliers who aren't practicing good dental hygiene at the expense of serious consequences for the entire rest of the population of children and pregnant women. Raise awareness about children avoiding sugary drinks and foods, and promote good dental hygiene practices.

As far as fluoride in toothpaste, pregnant women and small children -- the highest risk groups -- can avoid or reduce their exposure to it, as they are already directed to by doctors, and older individuals with developed motor skills can avoid swallowing all but trace amounts of it when they brush.

 

[DeepEnigma]

22 per 100,000 rising to 45 per 100,000, as compared to 100,000 out of 100,000 being brain damaged when the government enforces its policy. They're helping outliers who aren't practicing good dental hygiene at the expense of serious consequences for the entire rest of the population of children and pregnant women. Raise awareness about children avoiding sugary drinks and foods, and promote good dental hygiene practices.

As far as fluoride in toothpaste, pregnant women and small children -- the highest risk groups -- can avoid or reduce their exposure to it, as they are already directed to by doctors, and older individuals with developed motor skills can avoid swallowing all but trace amounts of it when they brush.

They also sell fluoride free toothpaste in almost every brand now.

 

[analog_future]

22 per 100,000 rising to 45 per 100,000, as compared to 100,000 out of 100,000 being brain damaged when the government enforces its policy. They're helping outliers who aren't practicing good dental hygiene at the expense of serious consequences for the entire rest of the population of children and pregnant women. Raise awareness about children avoiding sugary drinks and foods, and promote good dental hygiene practices.

As far as fluoride in toothpaste, pregnant women and small children -- the highest risk groups -- can avoid or reduce their exposure to it, as they are already directed to by doctors, and older individuals with developed motor skills can avoid swallowing all but trace amounts of it when they brush.

I don't know that "100,000 out of 100,000 being brain damaged" is an accurate statement if we're talking science. At high levels, there are links that show that fluoride may pose a risk to neurodevelopment, but not at our current levels: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/fluoride-childrens-health-grandjean-choi/

There is also ample evidence that fluoride, within levels found to be safe, provides many health benefits: https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Fluoride-HealthProfessional/


There DOES definitely seem to be evidence that there is a statistically significant decline in IQ when fluoride is administered at levels not found to be safe, particularly at 2x the "safe" level: https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/whatwestudy/assessments/noncancer/completed/fluoride


In my opinion, the solution is to more stringently/effectively regulate the amount of fluoride making it's way into our water supply. Not to eliminate it entirely.



There's definitely nuance to this one though and I don't fault anyone for feeling one way or the other about it.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Here's the issue.

Sodium fluoride is a synthetic compound, while naturally occurring fluoride is usually calcium fluoride:

• Sodium fluoride
  A synthetic, industrial compound that's often added to drinking water and dental products to prevent cavities.
• Calcium fluoride
  A naturally occurring compound found in soil and trace amounts in spring and natural water sources. It's also the compound in the minerals fluorite and fluorspar.

 

[EviLore]

I don't know that "100,000 out of 100,000 being brain damaged" is an accurate statement if we're talking science. At high levels, there are links that show that fluoride may pose a risk to neurodevelopment, but not at our current levels: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/fluoride-childrens-health-grandjean-choi/

There is also ample evidence that fluoride, within levels found to be safe, provides many health benefits: https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Fluoride-HealthProfessional/


There DOES definitely seem to be evidence that there is a statistically significant decline in IQ when fluoride is administered at levels not found to be safe, particularly at 2x the "safe" level: https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/whatwestudy/assessments/noncancer/completed/fluoride


In my opinion, the solution is to more stringently/effectively regulate the amount of fluoride making it's way into our water supply. Not to eliminate it entirely.



There's definitely nuance to this one though and I don't fault anyone for feeling one way or the other about it.

Have already discussed this at length earlier in the thread. And see the WaPo article for the prenatal exposure studies. Pregnant women and small children are officially advised to avoid fluoride toothpaste et al, because dose dependent exposure is obviously going to be more severe in those cases. The only reason this warning isn't extended to fluoridated water is because it's a top-down government policy which people can't easily opt out of (aside from filtering their water at home).

 

[AlphaDump]

Does the study show how Hawaiians compare logically to other states that didn't ban fluoride?

 

[EviLore]

Does the study show how Hawaiians compare logically to other states that didn't ban fluoride?

Over 98% of the European population doesn’t drink artificially fluoridated water, per Wikipedia. Citing health risks and opposition to top down government policy in favor of individual choice.

Water fluoridation by country - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

“
Out of a population of about three-quarters of a billion, under 14 million people (approximately 2%) in Europe receive artificially-fluoridated water. Those people are in the UK (5,797,000), Republic of Ireland (4,780,000), Spain (4,250,000), and Serbia (300,000).[27]

The first water fluoridation in Europe was in West Germany and Sweden in 1952, bringing fluoridated water to about 42,000 people. By mid-1962, about 1 million Europeans in 18 communities in 11 countries were receiving fluoridated water.[64]

Many European countries have rejected water fluoridation, including: Austria, Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Northern Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland,[65] Scotland,[66] Iceland, and Italy.[67] A 2003 survey of over 500 Europeans from 16 countries concluded that "the vast majority of people opposed water fluoridation".[68]
“

 

[AlphaDump]

Over 98% of the European population doesn’t drink artificially fluoridated water, per Wikipedia. Citing health risks and opposition to top down government policy in favor of individual choice.

Water fluoridation by country - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

“
Out of a population of about three-quarters of a billion, under 14 million people (approximately 2%) in Europe receive artificially-fluoridated water. Those people are in the UK (5,797,000), Republic of Ireland (4,780,000), Spain (4,250,000), and Serbia (300,000).[27]

The first water fluoridation in Europe was in West Germany and Sweden in 1952, bringing fluoridated water to about 42,000 people. By mid-1962, about 1 million Europeans in 18 communities in 11 countries were receiving fluoridated water.[64]

Many European countries have rejected water fluoridation, including: Austria, Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Northern Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland,[65] Scotland,[66] Iceland, and Italy.[67] A 2003 survey of over 500 Europeans from 16 countries concluded that "the vast majority of people opposed water fluoridation".[68]
“

To clarify, i meant an actual IQ comparison between a population using fluoride verse one that is banned. I'm not sure if that is in the study with those deltas and how they were quantified.


Im all for correcting it and trusting science. I think some people are naturally more apprehensive given these same folks recommended all kinds of bullshit outside of a vaccine during covid. That isn't really a political comment but more emphasizing trust in science and that inconsistentcy.

 

[DeepEnigma]

To clarify, i meant an actual IQ comparison between a population using fluoride verse one that is banned. I'm not sure if that is in the study with those deltas and how they were quantified.


Im all for correcting it and trusting science. I think some people are naturally more apprehensive given these same folks recommended all kinds of bullshit outside of a vaccine during covid. That isn't really a political comment but more emphasizing trust in science and that inconsistentcy.

And some of those various recommendations have proven to be effective and were walked back on years later. Especially the most vilified of the Nobel prize medicines that are super affordable.

 

[AlphaDump]

And some of those various recommendations have proven to be effective and were walked back on years later. Especially the most vilified of the Nobel prize medicines.

Right, verse just getting a vaccine. They demonized our director over allergy and infectious disease.

So anyway, I'm asking in this study if they have those deltas between populations. For example, would Hawaiians demonstrate more intelligence?

 

[jason10mm]

Right, verse just getting a vaccine. They demonized our director over allergy and infectious disease.

So anyway, I'm asking in this study if they have those deltas between populations. For example, would Hawaiians demonstrate more intelligence?

They live by the ocean in a tropical paradise, surf all day, and their women dance in grass skirts. They are doing something smarter than the rest of us

 

[DeepEnigma]

Right, verse just getting a vaccine. They demonized our director over allergy and infectious disease.

So anyway, I'm asking in this study if they have those deltas between populations. For example, would Hawaiians demonstrate more intelligence?

Not sure something so specific to Hawaii exists yet, but I would be interested if so.

 

[EviLore]

To clarify, i meant an actual IQ comparison between a population using fluoride verse one that is banned. I'm not sure if that is in the study with those deltas and how they were quantified.

Yes, you can't make a determination about effects like IQ impairment without a control group that isn't being exposed to those fluoride levels. They all have control groups. Looking at Hawaii specifically would not necessarily be valid since there are ethnic and socioeconomic differences, etc., other confounding factors that could make it a poor choice to compare against. You can read each study for details on methodology.

 

[jason10mm]

We gotta remember things like leaded gasoline, old brake pads in urban areas, leaded paint, asbestos. The list of toxic shit thrown at us since the industrial revolution has SKYROCKETED. Its no longer just "mad as a hatter" or "coal lung" occupational exposures, but pervasive elements of our very culture. The food we eat is a chain of events that no one ought to look at and say "sure, I'm sure all that stuff is fine". While there are measurable health gains moving away from guys cutting up animals in warm rooms filled with flies and rats to butchery done in cold sterile environments, there are trade offs introduced that we can, and should, work to mitigate.

We ought to have a better discourse around things we feel may be harmful and need to take the $$$ out of the discussion because ultimately most decisions are fed by the guy who can profit from it rather than an altruistic need to help humanity.

 

[PandaOk]

Isn’t the estimated decline exceptionally small. Seems like the impacts are being misrepresented in this discussion?

 

[EviLore]

Isn’t the estimated decline exceptionally small. Seems like the impacts are being overstated.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, an e.g., five point IQ drop, is not catastrophically life altering, but it is significant, and it is only the main effect being discussed because it is easier to quantify. Cognitive impairment from poisoning during childhood development comes with other behavioral problems as baggage, like ADHD, impulse control issues, personality disorders.

 

[Melon Husk]

More idiocracy & Hollywood "science". "Don't drink poison tapwater kids, drink brawndo".

0.6% of the U.S. population — about 1.9 million people — are on water systems with naturally occurring fluoride levels of 1.5 milligrams or higher. A local problem that should be fixed but miniscule on a larger scale.

Microplastics are a bigger problem. Start regulating and measuring the amounts present in plastic bottles.

 

[DeepEnigma]

More idiocracy & Hollywood "science". "Don't drink poison tapwater kids, drink brawndo".

0.6% of the U.S. population — about 1.9 million people — are on water systems with naturally occurring fluoride levels of 1.5 milligrams or higher. A local problem that should be fixed but miniscule on a larger scale.

Microplastics are a bigger problem. Start regulating and measuring the amounts present in plastic bottles.

Naturally occurring vs synthetic. Synthetic industrial chemicals will fall into the microplastics as well, which are also talked about and will be making more headlines in the coming future. They are bad news.

The human body does not metabolize synthetics proper. This web runs deep.

 

[Melon Husk]

Naturally occurring vs synthetic. Synthetic industrial chemicals will fall into the microplastics as well, which are also talked about and will be making more headlines in the coming future. They are bad news.

The human body does not metabolize synthetics proper. This web runs deep.

I'm not trying to drive a dichotomy between natural and man-made, it's more about known risks and known unknown risks. I posit even obesity is a wider IQ detriment.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I'm not trying to drive a dichotomy between natural and man-made, it's more about known risks and known unknown risks. I posit even obesity is a wider IQ detriment.

And that very well may be. That does not take away that effort can be made with this, and you have to start somewhere. That snowball or dominoes effect. Checklists, etc..

 

[ReBurn]

I grew up drinking well water so it was probably lead or mercury that made me retarded.

 

[grvg]

Sorry for the necro, but an important caveat is the difference between chemicals we call "Flouride" - calcium fluoride is much safer and healthier than flourisilic acid or sodium fluoride. Flouricillic acid is an industrial fertilizer byproduct, though, so by putting it in the water supply you are both "improving dental health of the populous" and "disposing of toxic industrial waste cheaply". Two birds with one stone! Yay!

 

[Trogdor1123]

I was thinking about this thread the other day. In Calgary Alberta they removed the fluoride from the water a while back but put it back in due to the massive dental impacts. I don’t know the specifics but it must have been significant?

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Just checked France, of course we don't have shit like that. Also, everybody here drinks tap water, no problems whatsoever.

 

[Dr.Morris79]

I heard water purifiers are pretty good

Anyone on Gaf use one? Wouldn't mind picking one up for the missus as the water in Bath is a bit ratty, any recommendations?

 

[Magic Carpet]

I heard water purifiers are pretty good

Anyone on Gaf use one? Wouldn't mind picking one up for the missus as the water in Bath is a bit ratty, any recommendations?

We have been using both a water softner and a Reverse Osmosis filter in the kitchen for cooking and drinking water. It's expensive but the water both feels great in the shower and tastes great.

 

[Dr.Morris79]

We have been using both a water softner and a Reverse Osmosis filter in the kitchen for cooking and drinking water. It's expensive but the water both feels great in the shower and tastes great.

I was after just one of those ones you stick on the kitchen top and leave filtering. Those two go through water like a couple of fish but you can really taste the crap in it.

 

[Magic Carpet]

I was after just one of those ones you stick on the kitchen top and leave filtering. Those two go through water like a couple of fish but you can really taste the crap in it.

those are good for removing smells and weird tastes, but minerals are still disolved in the water.

 

[ÆMNE22A!C]

And nothing substantially will change

 

[ÆMNE22A!C]

When water isn't pure and food is processed... I mean.

 

[ÆMNE22A!C]

Then again i'm sure all these companies have our best interests at heart <3 What? Decades long tiptoe agenda's to slowly kil uhh change us? Nut case.

 

[grvg]

I heard water purifiers are pretty good

Anyone on Gaf use one? Wouldn't mind picking one up for the missus as the water in Bath is a bit ratty, any recommendations?

I use a knock off Berkey. Berkeys are good, heavy duty gravity fed charcoal filters, with optional fluoride removal attachments. Water always tastes great when I drink it after filtering. I don't remember what the brand is, I'll edit it in when I get home today.

 

[freefornow]

If nothing else, this confirms that American Doctors, Nuclear scientists, Astrophysicists and a range of other high intelligent professionals do not drink American tap water.

 

[Jinzo Prime]

Just checked France, of course we don't have shit like that. Also, everybody here drinks tap water, no problems whatsoever.

Yet in the US, you're a tin-foil hat wearing lunatic for talking about it.

 

[FunkMiller]

Just checked France, of course we don't have shit like that. Also, everybody here drinks tap water, no problems whatsoever.

Same in UK, Australia and pretty much every other western nation, as far as I can tell.

 

[SF Kosmo]

We also don't know what the relationship is between dose and harm. We see that 2x the recommended level is causing this 2-5 IQ point reduction, but we don't know what 1x the recommended dose is doing. It could be perfectly safe, it could be 10% of the harm, 20%, or it could be a linear relationship and cause 50% of the harm. It's difficult to detect a 2-5 IQ point drop in an individual, but on a societal level it is very significant. A 1 IQ point drop would also be significant but is unlikely to be detectable in an analysis.

This is a big problem in general. It is very difficult to figure out the long-term effects of exposure to chemicals. The main way to do it is to let a population be exposed for 20 years and see if they have obvious problems compared to a similar population that isn't being exposed, but you have so many other variables to account for.

It's also inadequate to even establish a casual relationship, without correcting for all the reasons why a child might have higher fluoride exposure.

2-3 IQ points is pretty trivial to begin with, enough so that it would be easy for differences in regional demographics or other correlated factors to skew the results.

 

[natjjohn]

Simpsons will need to redo the Lisa gets braces episode to update the dentist’s book to the Big Book of American Smiles

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Simpsons will need to redo the Lisa gets braces episode to update the dentist’s book to the Big Book of American Smiles

 

[EverydayBeast]

Fluoride has been added to water supplies in the United States since 1945

And let’s hope people filter their water.