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[Vox Machina]

Windows is an operating system - not a platform.

Operating systems are platforms.

Like, explain the bolded. What services are you referring to? Because I just don’t see a reality where Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo lose their 70% cut due to being open, and don’t take it out on the consumer.

Multi-Game Subscriptions, Cloud Streaming, Exclusive Titles, any number of things can be used to compete with alternate stores. Look at Steam on Windows. How did they compete and draw customers away from web stores and physical media? How do they continue to compete with stores like Battle.Net/Xbox/EA/EGS?

Unless it’s a 3DO situation and they license out the hardware to other companies to make their own versions of the consoles.

Nothing stopping them from doing this either. Lead the charge with first-party hardware that "sets the standard" but license out the OS to other hardware vendors to rake in licensing fees and engender a wide ecosystem of devices. This is exactly what we see happening in the PC handheld space literally as we speak. Valve currently has some first-party hardware (Steam Deck) that is setting the standard, and I expect they'll start licensing the OS basically as soon as possible. On the Windows side vendors are already competing on the PC handheld front, and I expect Xbox will release a first-party device next gen or sooner.

Sony/Xbox/Nintendo are big boy companies. They can figure out ways to compete. Protecting them from competition is not the answer.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Operating systems are platforms.

So you’re saying Windows and Linux aren’t PCs but rather two separate platforms? What do we call these different platforms?

As a Windows user how much of my GPU purchase goes to Microsoft for royalties? How about my CPU? My GoG games?

Multi-Game Subscriptions, Cloud Streaming, Exclusive Titles, any number of things can be used to compete with alternate stores. Look at Steam on Windows. How did they compete and draw customers away from web stores and physical media? How do they continue to compete with stores like Battle.Net/Xbox/EA/EGS?

Xbox offers all three of your examples and is a closed system.

Steam on Windows? Steam is on PC. PC is the platform, not Windows. You don’t need Windows to access Steam.

What does Steam have to do with the topic? Steam doesn’t manufacture a closed platform. Give me an example of a consumer electronics device owned by a single company that doesn’t collect a fee from others making use of it.

Nothing stopping them from doing this either. Lead the charge with first-party hardware that "sets the standard" but license out the OS to other hardware vendors to rake in licensing fees and engender a wide ecosystem of devices. This is exactly what we see happening in the PC handheld space literally as we speak. Valve currently has some first-party hardware (Steam Deck) that is setting the standard, and I expect they'll start licensing the OS basically as soon as possible. On the Windows side vendors are already competing on the PC handheld front, and I expect Xbox will release a first-party device next gen or sooner.

You’re using examples of an open platform to say that fits the same for a closed platform. It doesn’t, and yet you keeping bringing it up.

Sony/Xbox/Nintendo are big boy companies. They can figure out ways to compete. Protecting them from competition is not the answer.

They’ve already figured it out. Maybe Epic needs to figure out how to compete? Maybe they should make their own platform to sell Fortnite and their other MTX driven games instead of leeching off everyone else’s popular hardware?

 

[Vox Machina]

So you’re saying Windows and Linux aren’t PCs but rather two separate platforms? What do we call these different platforms?

Yes Windows and Linux are separate platforms. This isn't an opinion. It's a fact.

Multi-Game Subscriptions, Cloud Streaming, Exclusive Titles, any number of things can be used to compete with alternate stores. Look at Steam on Windows. How did they compete and draw customers away from web stores and physical media? How do they continue to compete with stores like Battle.Net/Xbox/EA/EGS?

Xbox offers all three of your examples and is a closed system.

And it can continue to offer all of them (and more) if it were an open platform, as it does on Windows.

Steam on Windows? Steam is on PC. PC is the platform, not Windows. You don’t need Windows to access Steam.

PC is not the platform. Windows is the platform, Linux is the platform, MacOS is the platform. The fact that we group all these ecosystems into a term called "PC" is just for usefulness in discussion. A MacOS app does not run natively on Windows. Nor would a Windows app run natively on Linux.

The fact that Valve ported Steam to Mac and Linux means nothing. I can buy games on Steam that do NOT run on the platform where I purchased it, because those games were written for a different platform.

What does Steam have to do with the topic? Steam doesn’t manufacture a closed platform. Give me an example of a consumer electronics device owned by a single company that doesn’t collect a fee from others making use of it.

Steam is an example of a marketplace competing on an open platform (Windows, in this example) that gained customer support by developing and providing features and services that customers wanted. The same thing that first-party stores on open consoles could do. They could *GASP* compete for customers instead of getting them by default due to the closed nature of the OS.

And who said Xbox/Sony/Nintendo couldn't collect a fee for "others using it"? First and foremost consumers literally have to purchase a console to USE the console, so there's the first fee they could charge. Or they could choose to license the OS to other hardware manufacturers like Microsoft does with Windows. Or they could just compete for customers and continue raking in the 30% that they currently do if someone were to buy a 3rd party game on their first-party stores (that would continue to exist).

They’ve already figured it out. Maybe Epic needs to figure out how to compete? Maybe they should make their own platform to sell Fortnite and their other MTX driven games instead of leeching off everyone else’s popular hardware?

Well they are competing on Windows via EGS. But also if you replace Epic with Valve that's literally what they're doing with SteamOS.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

Give me an example of a consumer electronics device owned by a single company that doesn’t collect a fee from others making use of it.

Any Android device - and before you object saying that multiple companies are making those, that is correct, but they often run a custom Android version with a custom store.
So they own the rights to their phone architecture and the custom Android version. But you dont have to use those custom stores, not even the Google PlayStore - you can install whatever you want on those devices anyway!

SteamDeck - owned by Valve (you can install whatever you want, you do not have to use Steam on it)
Any PC based handheld device - owned by the company making them. Examples: Nvidia Shield, Asus ROG Ally, etc...
Raspberry Pi - owned by the Raspberry Foundation
Playdate - owned by Panic
SuperNT/MegaSG etc - owned by Analogue
Retrotink Device owned by Retrotink
OSSC by VideoGamePerfection (ok, there is other companies making those too, as it is completely open after all)

You can find a few more here:

List of open-source hardware projects - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[checkcola]

And people say the 80s was the time of greed. I have no rooting interest either way, only that this pursuit of all the money is gross.

 

[ZVWQP-9B8TM-VH9CT]

You’re comparing an open platform to a closed platform. You don’t understand the difference?

no I don't. Explain, cause the other user just ran away when I asked for proof.

 

[Bry0]

So you’re saying Windows and Linux aren’t PCs but rather two separate platforms? What do we call these different platforms?

Are you serious with this? lmao

 

[SmokedMeat]

no I don't. Explain, cause the other user just ran away when I asked for proof.

PC is the platform. Since it’s an open one you can stick whatever OS you want or even both.

Other than that we’re just going to go around in circles, with you using examples of what works on an open platform when the topic is about a closed platform.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Any Android device - and before you object saying that multiple companies are making those, that is correct, but they often run a custom Android version with a custom store.
So they own the rights to their phone architecture and the custom Android version. But you dont have to use those custom stores, not even the Google PlayStore - you can install whatever you want on those devices anyway!

SteamDeck - owned by Valve (you can install whatever you want, you do not have to use Steam on it)
Any PC based handheld device - owned by the company making them. Examples: Nvidia Shield, Asus ROG Ally, etc...
Raspberry Pi - owned by the Raspberry Foundation
Playdate - owned by Panic
SuperNT/MegaSG etc - owned by Analogue
Retrotink Device owned by Retrotink
OSSC by VideoGamePerfection (ok, there is other companies making those too, as it is completely open after all)

You can find a few more here:

List of open-source hardware projects - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You deleted the Steam part from my comment. I’m talking about closed platforms. None of those are closed

 

[ZVWQP-9B8TM-VH9CT]

PC is the platform. Since it’s an open one you can stick whatever OS you want or even both.

Other than that we’re just going to go around in circles, with you using examples of what works on an open platform when the topic is about a closed platform.

no I ask consoles to be open as well, so that there are 5 different stores on each one of them. What is your problem with this? Sony can keep their games on their store only if they like, but other publishers should be able to sell their ps5 games on other stores inside playstation ecosystem.

 

[Vox Machina]

PC is the platform.

You keep saying this. It's still wrong.

 

[SmokedMeat]

no I ask consoles to be open as well, so that there are 5 different stores on each one of them. What is your problem with this? Sony can keep their games on their store only if they like, but other publishers should be able to sell their ps5 games on other stores inside playstation ecosystem.

I’ve already stated my problems with it way earlier. There’s little upside for the end user, but plenty of upside for a multibillion dollar corporation like Epic.

 

[SmokedMeat]

You keep saying this. It's still wrong.

It’s not. But you call each machine by its operating system. I’ll continue referring to it as a PC like everyone else.

 

[RoboFu]

Protecting corporate profit margins at the expense of the consumer interest generally isn't the "in" thing to do with regulators nowadays (unless you're the FTC). If the console walled gardens are opened up then the will adapt the same way other open digital markets have.

Consumer interest is a safe non malware filled devices for everyday use.

 

[Bernoulli]

Consumer interest is a safe non malware filled devices for everyday use.

thankfuly europe is forcing apple to allow sideloading
and you are not forced to use sideloading nothing changes for you

you image also means that MAC os should be dropped by everyone because it allows sideloading

 

[ScHlAuChi]

Consumer interest is a safe non malware filled devices for everyday use.

That NordVPN Image is heavily misleading - iOS is NOT safer or more secure, "Security by obscurity" has never worked.
Yes, the iOS app store has less malware overall, and yet several hundred fake apps went through and stole people´s money.
Did Apple take responsibility for that? Nope! In other words, their fake security proclaimed by their marketing is completely worthless.

Even the former head of security at Apple thinks so:

Apple engineer likened App Store security to ‘butter knife in gunfight’

Revelation part of legal documents released by Epic Games ahead of antitrust trial

www.ft.com

What I do agree with is the lack of patches for Android devices, that is indeed something Apple does well.
But when Apple stops updates then youre screwed, where on Android you still have the option of switching to something like LineageOS.

 

[Vox Machina]

Consumer interest is a safe non malware filled devices for everyday use.

Weird because most consumers choose Android-based phones. Security IS more of an issue for open platforms, but that doesn't mean it cant be mitigated. Microsoft does a great job of it over on the Windows side and Google does too on Android. I use both of those OS's and neither of them has had a security issue for me in decades. And yes I do "sideload" apps on both of these OSs.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Weird because most consumers choose Android-based phones.

That is due to affordability and carrier subsidization. You can get readily available shitbox Android phones every single year, you can't get shitbox iPhones as readily available.

It wasn't only until the past several years where Apple repackaged old phone models in a new shell at a cheaper price, but even then, they're not Android cheap.

 

[Vox Machina]

That is due to affordability and carrier subsidization. You can get readily available shitbox Android phones every single year, you can't get shitbox iPhones as readily available.

It wasn't only until the past several years where Apple repackaged old phone models in a new shell at a cheaper price, but even then, they're not Android cheap.

Sure, more access (due to lower consumer prices) is one benefit of open platforms (and thus competition between producers). But I wouldn't ascribe it fully to price. I live in a "rich" western country (US) and can afford to buy an iPhone, but I still choose Android based on my affinity to that platform specifically _because_ of its openness.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I wouldn't ascribe it fully to price.

Mainly.

 

[Vox Machina]

Mainly.

Agreed

 

[ZVWQP-9B8TM-VH9CT]

I’ve already stated my problems with it way earlier. There’s little upside for the end user, but plenty of upside for a multibillion dollar corporation like Epic.

you "forgot" to comment about apple.

 

[SmokedMeat]

you "forgot" to comment about apple.

What about Apple? As an iPhone user I choose to buy their phone because it’s a closed platform. If I wanted an open phone and all the vulnerabilities that come with it, I’d have bought an Android.

 

[khakimzhan]

you can keep downloading only from their store, others want sideloading, why should you care about what others do?

The biggest flaw with that logic. Is that sooner or later, Meta (for example) will make Instagram (or even WhatsApp) exclusive to THEIR store. So you would be forced to install their AppStore, it will open the floodgates.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

The biggest flaw with that logic. Is that sooner or later, Meta (for example) will make Instagram (or even WhatsApp) exclusive to THEIR store. So you would be forced to install their AppStore, it will open the floodgates.

OMG that sounds terrible indeed!
Imagine having multiple stores that have to compete with each other for customers!
Total madness! This will never work and everyone will die!

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Multi-Game Subscriptions, Cloud Streaming, Exclusive Titles, any number of things can be used to compete with alternate stores. Look at Steam on Windows. How did they compete and draw customers away from web stores and physical media? How do they continue to compete with stores like Battle.Net/Xbox/EA/EGS?

what stops steam from being bought? It can't be blocked cause it'd cause a max exodus from windows, but it can potentially be bought.

Steam on Windows? Steam is on PC. PC is the platform, not Windows. You don’t need Windows to access Steam.

Don't many new systems have secure boot? And even that I think it is microsoft the one that signs all OSs including linux though i could be wrong on that.

 

[Comandr]

Yeah of course you´re stopping, because you cant name another game that was for preorder on Steam that Epic took off!
Instead you will name all the games that released on EGS first and Steam later as examples where Epic blocked games for you because you had to wait a year

SmokedMeat

Look at the dates! A year after many people preordered the game for Steam specifically, Epic waved a bunch of money at the developer to screw Steam out of the game for a year.

 

[SmokedMeat]

SmokedMeat
Look at the dates! A year after many people preordered the game for Steam specifically, Epic waved a bunch of money at the developer to screw Steam out of the game for a year.

Oh I know.

Not to mention stuff like Rocket League and Fall Guys, where the games made it big on Steam - and then Epic swoops in to buy them and removes them from Steam.