poppedcollar69
Member
https://twitter.com/var1ables/status/703495221099692032
now thats an analogy i can get behind
edit: http://i.imgur.com/re98HrP.jpg
now thats an analogy i can get behind
edit: http://i.imgur.com/re98HrP.jpg
VALVE fires DOTA tourney host, Gabe Newell calls the host "an ass" publicly on Reddit
- Thread starter Abilidebob
- Start date
Omotesando
Member
Lol, I am watching the stream right now.....
See that's just the thing though. Gabe IS the big dog. CEO's look unprofessional all of the time all over the world, because they are human too. Anything he does regardless of whether it was handled properly or not is solely up to him to own or fix or apologize for. Valve isn't a publicly traded company, so there is no one to force him to step down if he does something egregious.
From the letter released by James it seems as though there were a lot of miscommunications and personal preferences that went into all of this, if James was telling the whole story....which almost no one does because it is really hard to make yourself look really bad, then the right thing to do would be to have a sit down and talk stuff out and get both sides out in the open b/c James sounds as if he knows what he's doing. Again.....this is just speculation though as I've never worked with the man. The right thing to do also seems to be really hard for a lot of people to do though also.
Now I wasn't saying that what Gabe did wasn't professional, I just really like it when people are completely honest with how they feel. So much crap or people that you just don't like can be avoided with a little honesty. That doesn't mean those feelings could be completely wrong or influenced by other people. If this truly was a miscommunication I would love to see if Gabe would be a big enough person to admit it and call himself out. I love personal accountability also, if you mess up own it and do better the next time (if Gabe feels he messed up).
manfestival
Member
Sheever has ugly arms
chaobreaker
Member
FTFY.
I don't think IceFrog is totally to blame - his Skype messages do tell James to be himself but I feel that was said in support and not necessarily as instructions.
I do think that the lack of internal communication between Valve and its employees onsite at this event did him in. I mean 2GD asked an employee to upgrade his room out of his event payment and even that wasn't communicated to higher ups properly - Bruno reacted like Valve higher ups told him 2GD requested something else.
Whether or not Ali is whispering into GabeN's ears and does have a grudge on James remains to be seen. I want Valve's side now.
Yeah, it was only until I started reading into the middle of the thread after that post that it's obvious he's playing a character. Not a great one, though.
Sounds like he took Icefrog's encouragement as a blank cheque for cracking as lewd and disrespectful jokes as he pleased, and a company-wide endorsement at that. M'boy, Icefrog isn't Valve. Further, your judgement that jokes about porn, cumming, and demeaning players is the sort of thing that will attract new players/customers is more than a little questionable. Even if the whiteboard is a smash-hit like you were saying, that's a hell of a lot of mixed messages you sent out.
Crash Station
Member
A mod should probably add that statement to the OP.
Dreams-Visions
Member
If you only read like the first two pages of the 16-page statement then yeah, that would be it. But there is definitely more to this story, like how Valve at TI4 decided to pay their talent based on ingame signatures, I mean come on? What was the prize pool for that tournament again? I believe something like $10M. They're just cheap-asses.
When someone says "be yourself" it's like asking during an interview "what's your biggest weakness" or a first date asking "what's your craziest sexual fantasy" or your coach telling the team "just have fun out there!"
You don't fucking be yourself!
Your weakness is perfection, your fetish is hair pulling, and your idea of fun is WINNING!
You don't fucking be yourself!
Your weakness is perfection, your fetish is hair pulling, and your idea of fun is WINNING!
chaobreaker
Member
Dude failed to read the tone of the event and it shows.
NaDannMaGoGo
Member
Well, reading his side of the story and if I'm assuming it's largely true, then Valve certainly takes the larger share of fault here. How can you have IceFrog himself tell James to be himself and then get so upset that you're firing him, tell him not to release a statement for the moment and have your company's sell known CEO call him an Ass in a sparse Reddit statement? if nothing else it's at least readily apparent that there was some major miscommunication within valve on this.
You can still fire him if you think he isn't toning it down enough but at least be more classy about it.
You can still fire him if you think he isn't toning it down enough but at least be more classy about it.
But this wasn't a first date. This was a long term relationship doing DOTA.
Because Valve are so disjointed in terms of structure. Gabe is really the only one to speak to the public regularly because of this. If multiple people were speaking publically on a regular basis, it would be a mess.
Gabe probably had no idea about the be yourself.message, or even James being asked to keep it on ice.
nephilimdj
Member
Seriously thats awful hes using icefrog to justify that, "mr wangs" disabled pornography and then calling someone a "bottom bitch"
Gabe really takes the cake as the most unprofessional CEO for a huge company we have seen in a long time. Calling an ex employee an ass on social media is about as childish and stupid as it gets. Also him publicly shaming the production company like that. What a fucking tool. I don't care how much money your company has, you just made a lot of companies weary off working with you.
And yes James is a complete bellend but they knew that up front. Should never have hired the idiot in the first place.
And yes James is a complete bellend but they knew that up front. Should never have hired the idiot in the first place.
Then again Valve (and Icefrog I can only imagine) knows exactly what James' "self" on camera is. If you're told to be yourself on camera, when your on-camera personality is somewhat of an asshole character, then that's probably what you will deliver. That Icefrog probably doesn't speak for Valve as a company in this case is another story though.
I think you're blowing the jokes James used out of proportion. I don't like 2GD you can find many clips of him being extremely disrespectful and using racist insults. However, while I and many people in this thread may not be a fan personally he does have a fanbase and he does appeal to some people. Dota is relatively tame in terms of drama in it's community. Just look at other Esports communities, CSGO, for example.
The fact that James was the only hosting employee being paid at TI4, an event with a prizepool of $1.6M, is fucking disgusting. Valve aren't bulletproof and Gabe has been thoroughly unprofessional in this incident.
Man I can respect James and everything he's done, but I definitely understand where Gabe is coming from. From the whiteboard to the jokes, he makes the scene look pretty unprofessional. That in itself takes away from the legitimacy of "e-sports."
That being said, if what he said about the payment stuff is true, Valve has some things to fix as well.
That being said, if what he said about the payment stuff is true, Valve has some things to fix as well.
?¿
And people are wondering why Gabe called him an ass?
What's up with the Dota community?
So it's OK to be an ass a long as
A: you've got fans
B: there are communities even assier than yours
?
If you count the whiteboard as something that makes the scene look unprofessional, you clearly haven't been watching the tournament. The various audiovisual bugs on stream, delayed games, dropped streams are what make it seem unprofessional. The whiteboard was kinda charming
Though I think one of the shadiest parts of this is how James was told to put his statement on ice until the next day, in James' mind so that they can work it out privately, and then DURING THE NIGHT Gabe goes on Reddit and calls him an ass. Valve had their chance to make a statement and they did it in the worst possible way. Respect for Valve just dropped immensely.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
The fact that he took Icefrog's advice says a lot about how little Valve communicated with him about how they wanted him to host the tournament, so how was he supposed to know beforehand that he wasn't supposed to be himself(keep in mind that they were happy with his hosting at the 4 TI's so he has little reason to assume so).
You can argue that his style isn't professional or whatever but my question is why didn't anyone tell him beforehand when they knew what kind of person he is? Yeah, Bruno told him "no sex jokes" on the day of but that isn't exactly much to go off of and isn't very helpful when he's already prepared stuff beforehand.
You can argue that his style isn't professional or whatever but my question is why didn't anyone tell him beforehand when they knew what kind of person he is? Yeah, Bruno told him "no sex jokes" on the day of but that isn't exactly much to go off of and isn't very helpful when he's already prepared stuff beforehand.
No one's wondering that, he's an ass. But if you didn't want an ass, why hire one in the first place? It's not like he's kept it hidden.
I think regardless of whether you like 2GD and his act, the most unprofessional one here has been Gabe. Going out on Reddit and calling 2GD an ass is not right. Handle that stuff quietly and in person. 2GD of all people responded in a respectful manner, so why can't the head of a billion dollar company do the same?
MurkyZebra2417
Member
The Dota community (well, at least reddit and Twitch Chat) like especially that kind of humor.
But Valve want to position Dota more professional and as a real "sports". They want a TV slot for their Majors/TI and of course you won't ever get one with a host that makes comments like these.
There are different interests currently on both sides.
I'm familiar with these issues, but those have nothing to do with 2GD.
MurkyZebra2417
Member
Just because you are told to be yourself doesn't give you the right to say anything. James KNOWS that Valve is serious about Dota and wants it on TV etc.
Who on their right mind thinks this is the kind of attitude for a professional panel?
If you are told to be yourself at a Job interview or a meeting you still wouldn't crack porn jokes etc...
I see. That's a good point. Maybe they wanted to reach a tipping point with those fans until it gathered enough momentum to be a "real" e-sport without the need of that? Sounds like a bad idea.
Makes sense.
The porn joke was social commentary on the state of censorship in China. The cumming joke was 'But I still finished and here I am ready to host' ie: self-deprecating joke about his lack of preparedness. 'Demeaning' the player actually meant saying he wouldn't want that player in his team, based on real life examples of that player choking in various tournaments and infamously being kicked off a team that went on to win the biggest tournament of the year.
You can make anything sound good or bad when people don't know what the fuck they are talking about.
Yes, but my point is it's not like he was an eyesore bringing a prestigious tournament down. It was a house on fire and 2GD rode a unicycle in clown makeup to keep people engaged.
Sure they do. The whiteboard was James' idea, and Ali wrote that email to Bruno about how the idea was shit.
I agree that those sound a lot more tame than what I imagined after reading the post and what I've heard about the Dota community in general (being hostile towards new players etc.) but that still has no place in tournaments, has it.
Maybe the times of RawDota are over and the fan base that made Dota as big as it is today doesn't want to accept that.
I'm really not. He wanted to appeal to the narrow community that likes the raunchy and demeaning, while at the same time appealing to the wider community (and the ones getting a first look at Dota in particular). He's priding himself on the work he did to service that latter community, but he's seemingly unaware of just how badly he's going to put off that same community by essentially inserting GDStudio atmosphere into a professional broadcast. That's the larger problem, not only his lack of self-awareness, but lack of awareness of the nature of the tournament itself. He's not stupid, and he should have known better than to think he was getting a 12,000 dollar paycheque, on a tournament with 3 million in prizes, and sponsors everywhere to host the GDStudio live.
Not excusing his lack of preparation, but he does mention he has been busy with his studio/game. That being said... no matter how great your improv and hosting skills are, who decides to go into an event like this knowing nothing of the current meta? Yes learning with the viewers as the panel answers his questions sounds great but one could do a much better job just pretending to be ignorant and leading the panel like he originally intended. It's so weird.
I am really hoping Gabe releases a second statement regarding their side of the story and then they [2gd/valve] take it to private.
Well said.
I mean, he was told in thst same message "people like you for who you are". If that's not the same as "keep doing what you do all the time" and then also told "Whatever you want to do is fine". When you hire someone who's known to make those jokes, but can turn it all off when asked, why did someone not prep him properly in advance?
If you hire someone that often likes to take a shit on your carpet, don't actually tell them not to take a shit on the carpet and in fact tell them to be themself, you can't be upset when they take that shit on the carpet.
I think you're missing the point. James didn't say anything offensive especially not by his standards.
If Valve are serious they haven't shown it so far. They didn't pay anyone on the panel for TI4, which had a $1.6M prizepool, and the Shanghai Major has been plagued with problems since the start, none of which have anything to do with James. If the streams actually ran well James could be as offensive as he wanted and no one would have been complaining about it because at least the streams would be working, which they haven't so far. The major are supposed to be on par with The International and so far they've all felt like amateur arrangements.
Maybe I'm just remembering wrong, but James did not make the same kinds of jokes when he was hosting past Valve events. Even Icefrog may have assumed that it was implied that "Be Your Self" would have been interpreted as "Put on the same kind of show you did at past TIs"
Valve probably made a mistake by having him host a 90 minute panel and a 105 minute panel. Even a pro-football pre-game show isn't that long.
That's not the hosts fault. I mean, he could have went, "for 105 minutes, all I want is half a dozen slides and 3 vids" but it sounds like he wasn't really given anything to work with. Now I don't know if it was his job to bring things he wanted to showcase to the production team, I don't know if he had those slides and vids forced on him, but someone should have noticed they had very little content for that period of time.
Reading from Bonnie Elvira's twitlonger: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1socb0e it seems like the production crew was in shambles.
If a $3M prize pool means it's professional, surely the $1.6M base prize pool of TI4 means it's professional too. The latter, however, barely paid their talent.
You are not wrong about the playerbase, especially in the lower levels. But there is no such thing as RawDota when it comes to professional tournaments. Edgy banter isn't really that prevalent and the fact that this is the first controversy of this type after like 5 years of Dota 2 esports and 3 James-hosted TIs should tell you that. The biggest controversy in professional Dota 2 tournaments are:
- tournaments not paying on time
- bad production/delays
- meme-heavy casters
Sexism/racism/ableism in casting isn't really a thing. This is a really, really, weird case.
Twitch chat is another story entirely though.
Aims, ends, those sorts of distinctions. Valve doesn't get it perfect. PerfectWorld comes so far from perfect it's funny. Still. He's a smart lad. You take the paycheque and you give the boss what they need.
Tobi Wan. Eugh.
MurkyZebra2417
Member
He even writes in his statement that at TI2-4 he was more professional because Valve told him to. Why would he suddenly think that he can say whatever he wants at a major Valve event? Sorry, but this is commom sense in your Job and James fucked it up.
But like I said in a post before, Valve also handled the situation very badly. They should have talked to him after and give him a chance to straighten things out and then not hire him for future events.
James WAS offensive. He was offensive to players (a no-go imho for a panel host) and made jokes not appropiate for the audience Valve wants to attract with Dota2 (Ages 12+).
Like I said before, Valve needs to invest money into things if they want to be professional. I don't say they did anything right with the Shanghai Major, it is a HUGE disaster for them.
They need to invest into hosts, casters and overall production for the next events.
I wasn't really watching Dota around TI2 and TI3 so I can't speak for those, but yeah at TI4 he was quite professional from what I can remember. That said though, Icefrog can hardly have missed how James acts at different tournaments, and when he says "be yourself" then it's no wonder it's interpreted as such.
Not a cast. Doesn't count.
Might as well start counting every comment made in any pub game by anyone ever.
Sounds like a mess of miscommunication and your typical unprofessional attempt to be more "professional".
I enjoy 2GD and he can tone his style way down if he is asked to be, but he was always gonna get chewed out in a world where everyone wants "esports" to be like "real sports". But don't do that if he is probably the only thing that's gonna bring any kind of entertainement to your panels. That's why we watch sports afterall. For entertainment. And the way things look at the moment the people on the couch have nothing to show now. It's dreadful.
Gabe going full on Gabe on him sure doesn't help anyone either.
A mess all around. By now everyone involved should have figured out how things work.
I enjoy 2GD and he can tone his style way down if he is asked to be, but he was always gonna get chewed out in a world where everyone wants "esports" to be like "real sports". But don't do that if he is probably the only thing that's gonna bring any kind of entertainement to your panels. That's why we watch sports afterall. For entertainment. And the way things look at the moment the people on the couch have nothing to show now. It's dreadful.
Gabe going full on Gabe on him sure doesn't help anyone either.
A mess all around. By now everyone involved should have figured out how things work.
He's made more ewww comments in casts than I care to count or even remember in detail. Maybe he's cleaned up his act? Can't say I know, I avoid his casts if it can be helped.
Okay then the conclusion we can draw is Valve aren't serious about ESports. With how toxic the CSGO community is, how shoddy the production quality is on the Shanghai Major and the fact that they paid the pundit panel for TI4 in signature sales; put on top of that they hired a host they knew would make jokes like this.
James didn't fuck up, Valve did.
BlastProcessing
Member
I mean the tone of the event has been terrible sound, long delays, and sub-public-access-television level production quality. It's a mess all around.
They control the staggering majority of all of the money running through the scene. They absolutely have a stranglehold, but without the structure to back it up. PPD said as much in his most recent Vlog. Paraphrasing "Valve controls everything and is the only reason I or anyone else can make a living doing this."
Valve needs to put on their big boy pants and accept responsibility for what they have created.