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[Elfforkusu]

... the Battle of Verdun, which serves to this day as a monument to the madness of war.

[A] factor peculiar to Verdun is that, whereas the fighting on the Somme, and elsewhere on the Western Front, took place in ephemeral trenches all but effaced by the passage of time, here it swirled around a ring of 19 huge forts, 14 of them reinforced with concrete. They gave the city its reputation at the time as the world’s most powerful fortress. Two of these bases were Forts Vaux and Douaumont, the latter reputed to be the strongest in the world.

Verdun’s sinister fame as the most atrocious battle in history also derives from the sheer concentration of the battlefield: over a period of ten months from February to December 1916, an area smaller than Manhattan was subjected without let-up to the most intensive artillery bombardment ever experienced. Most of the men who died there did so without ever seeing the enemy.

To me, Verdun seems instructive because it was not a consequence of hatred -- not a slaughter between two nations fighting to the last man, convinced the other was out to destroy her (Pacific Theater or Eastern Front in WWII), but a slaughter of cold calculation. With the inventions of artilery barrages, barbed wire, trenches, and machine guns -- and with the necessary countermeasure of mobile armor (tanks) still in R&D, the only strategic path forward was to break the will of the enemy state by sheer loss of life.

The German commander-in-chief, General Erich von Falkenhayn, devised a bizarre strategy for his men’s assault in February 1916; it was not to break through, nor even to capture a key city, but to lure the French army into a trap where it would be “bled white” by superior German firepower. The trap was the defence of a bastion that, for strategic, historic (and moral) reasons, the Grand Quartier Général – France’s wartime headquarters – could not afford to give up. The city of Verdun lay only 150 miles along the direct route from Paris, in a temptingly exposed salient on the Western Front.

... and because, despite the cruel logic that led to the battle's design, it advanced neither side's war effort.

On 24 October, Fort Douaumont was recaptured. It is estimated that its recovery cost more than 100,000 French lives. By 19 December the Battle of Verdun was over. It had achieved nothing: a few ruined acres of France, with 800,000 casualties across the two sides, over ten months. [...] it could be judged the unnecessary battle in an unnecessary war.

(quotes from Alistair Horne: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/02/legend-verdun)

The French held their ground, and ostensibly "won" the battle. But in the words of a French soldier,

They will not be able to make us do it again another day; that would be to misconstrue the price of our effort. They will have to resort to those who have not lived out these days . . .

100 years later:

In its futility and bloodiness, Verdun also feels like a characture of World War I itself. It is one area of many that, a century later, still remain off-limits to the general populace. Every year in France and Belgium along WWI's western front, locals dredge up -- sometimes intentionally, sometimes not -- another yield of the iron harvest.

Here are some links if you'd like to know more. In particular, Dan Carlin's descriptions of the WWI battlefields are tremendous at communicating the horrors involved. Highly recommended. If only we could make our politicians listen before advocating war...

Alistair Horne: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/02/legend-verdun
Dan Carlin's Blueprint for Armageddon, Part 4 (podcast): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAqpY5yCSKY
John Keegan, the First World War: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0375700455/?tag=neogaf0e-20

A peaceful scene in modern France

 

[Sadsic]

all the big battles in WWI sounded fucking crazy from listening to hardcore history

this and the somme

 

[Kahoona]

From what I've read of this battle and the Battle of the Somme, World War 1 is the one war in all of history I would not want to take part of...it just sounded like complete Hell on Earth.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

Hardcore history covered this, absolutely frightening

 

[Kurdel]

Wonderful OP, Hardcore History gave me a new understanding to the butchering that happened there.

 

[aceface]

Hardcore history covered this, absolutely frightening

Just was listening to that episode today, it's harrowing stuff.

Tolkien got his conception of Mordor from his experiences on the western front.

 

[DeBurgo]

I wish someone would explain why the French, historically, gave so much of a shit about Verdun.

 

[Savitar]

From what I've read of this battle and the Battle of the Somme, World War 1 is the one war in all of history I would not want to take part of...it just sounded like complete Hell on Earth.

Hard to disagree with that assessment.

 

[Agent_Carnage]

70,000 casualty's a month thats alot. Every day of the battle 2,300 ish people died daily. Terrible.

 

[Kurdel]

I wish someone would explain why the French, historically, gave so much of a shit about Verdun.

It's in the OP you glossed over.

Spoiler

It's a 150 mile straight line to Paris after Verdun.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

This battle was something to listen from Hardcore history and I can not wait to see what The Great War has to offer about this subject.
This battle was indeed one of the bloodiest battle in the war.

 

[Buba Big Guns]

This battle seemed insane when listening to hardcore history.

The scale of death and destruction is just unbelievable and hard to wrap your head around.

 

[nhlducks35]

Watch one of these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa9EK-PfyF8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhRwGIa3xtw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N84Iq1PnEPQ


And realize that in those videos only about 100 or so people died. Meaning 20x that would die like that each day

 

[Elfforkusu]

I wish someone would explain why the French, historically, gave so much of a shit about Verdun.

Historically, it had been an important fortress:

For centuries, Verdun had played an important role in the defence of the hinterland from the strategic location of the city on the Meuse river. Attila the Hun failed to seize the town in the fifth century; when the empire of Charlemagne was divided under the Treaty of Verdun of 843, the town became part of the Holy Roman Empire and the Peace of Westphalia in 1648, awarded Verdun to France. The heart of the city of Verdun was a citadel built by Vauban in the 17th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Verdun#R.C3.A9gion_Fortifi.C3.A9e_de_Verdun

It's a little weird as an American, since we just haven't had many battles on our own doorstep. There aren't a lot of places in the US that hold significant symbolic value. But it's easy to picture a sense of pride -- as long as Verdun holds, so does France.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Hardcore history covered this, absolutely frightening

Same. HH is where I heard of it from. I'd love to watch more videos about this whole war.

 

[BigWeather]

I hadn't read about the Iron Harvest before. Amazing. 900 tons of munitions recovered a year, even today?!

 

[CrocMother]

Death on a scale that's unfathomable

 

[Head of Vengarl]

Glad people have already mentioned Hardcore History in here. That was also my first experience really learning about WW1 in detail. Verdun sounded like absolute hell. On the Wikipedia article, there's a quote that has stuck in my head:

A French lieutenant at Verdun who was later killed by a shell, wrote in his diary on 23 May 1916, "Humanity is mad. It must be mad to do what it is doing. What a massacre! What scenes of horror and carnage! I cannot find words to translate my impressions. Hell cannot be so terrible. Men are mad!"

Many people literally went insane from their experiences in the trenches. I'm amazed that anyone made it out of there without losing it.

 

[Bulk_Rate]

I remember visiting the nearby Ossuary as a kid in the 80s and even as a shallow youth that place haunted me.

 

[DeBurgo]

It's in the OP you glossed over.

Spoiler

It's a 150 mile straight line to Paris after Verdun.

That's the strategic reason. It's not really the historical reason. If you listened to the hardcore history podcast on the topic, Dan Carlin brings it up as well (though it might mostly be embellishment/his opinion). As I remember, he says it's really important to the French, but actually emphasizes that its strategic importance is somewhat questionable, and that they're compelled to defend it for other reasons. He doesn't completely explain why, however.

Thanks for just assuming that I glossed over the OP though?

Historically, it had been an important fortress:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Verdun#R.C3.A9gion_Fortifi.C3.A9e_de_Verdun

It's a little weird as an American, since we just haven't had many battles on our own doorstep. There aren't a lot of places in the US that hold significant symbolic value. But it's easy to picture a sense of pride -- as long as Verdun holds, so does France.

Thanks, that clears it up a bit more, I think. Still, I can't help but imagine there's more of a story, there.

 

[Mimosa97]

This is why I go berserk everytime I hear some dumb cunt joking about how us french people love to surrender. My great-grandfather lost 2 of his brothers during WWI (not in Verdun though) and my family (on my father's side) lost a lot to the trench wars and it wasn't the first time that my family bled for France (I can go back to one of my ancestor serving under Napoleon). So yeah ... The germans humiliated us during WWII. But France is still the country that fought and won the most wars in History (you can check that on wikipedia). It's disgusting that people who respect and even worship their own veterans would shit on the tens of millions of men who died for France by calling them cowards who love to surrender (which couldn't be further from the truth).

/endrant.

 

[jstripes]

That after image looks like the surface of the moon.

This is why I go berserk everytime I hear some dumb cunt joking about how us french people love to surrender.

As a Canadian, I've got your back. The only time France ever "surrendered" was in WWII, and that was only the government. There was still a massive underground resistance.

 

[makingmusic476]

I've often wondered how populous Europe would be had the great wars never happened.

 

[maomaoIYP]

I came in here thinking about the Full Metal Bitch. I'm sorry.

 

[Elfforkusu]

That after image looks like the surface of the moon.

There's some truth to that comparison. A huge % of WWI shells were shrapnel, meaning you fired a big hunk of metal at the ground (far away) with the intent that it would break into many smaller, deadly pieces of metal. Of course, the Moon has had 4.5 or so billion years to develop its landscape of impact craters. Verdun's was made in 10 months.

This is why I go berserk everytime I hear some dumb cunt joking about how us french people love to surrender. My great-grandfather lost 2 of his brothers during WWI (not in Verdun though) and my family (on my father's side) lost a lot to the trench wars and it wasn't the first time that my family bled for France (I can go back to one of my ancestor serving under Napoleon). So yeah ... The germans humiliated us during WWII. But France is still the country that fought and won the most wars in History (you can check that on wikipedia). It's disgusting that people who respect and even worship their own veterans would shit on the tens of millions of men who died for France by calling them cowards who love to surrender (which couldn't be further from the truth).

/endrant.

I feel you, man. I think it's mostly ignorance. Over here it's easy to for people to cut history and put a bow around it right at WWII, and pretend nothing happened before that (or... after...) because USA USA USA.

 

[Switch Back 9]

This is why I go berserk everytime I hear some dumb cunt joking about how us french people love to surrender. My great-grandfather lost 2 of his brothers during WWI (not in Verdun though) and my family (on my father's side) lost a lot to the trench wars and it wasn't the first time that my family bled for France (I can go back to one of my ancestor serving under Napoleon). So yeah ... The germans humiliated us during WWII. But France is still the country that fought and won the most wars in History (you can check that on wikipedia). It's disgusting that people who respect and even worship their own veterans would shit on the tens of millions of men who died for France by calling them cowards who love to surrender (which couldn't be further from the truth).

/endrant.

If I'm not mistaken, one of the major reasons France surrendered so quickly in WW2 was because many of the generals had fought in WW1 and wanted to avoid another prolonged massacre.

 

[luckygodzilla]

This is why I go berserk everytime I hear some dumb cunt joking about how us french people love to surrender. My great-grandfather lost 2 of his brothers during WWI (not in Verdun though) and my family (on my father's side) lost a lot to the trench wars and it wasn't the first time that my family bled for France (I can go back to one of my ancestor serving under Napoleon). So yeah ... The germans humiliated us during WWII. But France is still the country that fought and won the most wars in History (you can check that on wikipedia). It's disgusting that people who respect and even worship their own veterans would shit on the tens of millions of men who died for France by calling them cowards who love to surrender (which couldn't be further from the truth).

/endrant.

Seriously, France has one of the most sterling military track records in all of Europe, but people act like WWI was the only war you guys ever fought in. France damn near bled white in WWI, and it is frankly ridiculous that the nation gets little to no credit for that today.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

Reading the gas bombardment accounts is horrifying.

 

[Armaros]

Seriously, France has one of the most sterling military track records in all of Europe, but people act like WWI was the only war you guys ever fought in. France damn near bled white in WWI, and it is frankly ridiculous that the nation gets little to no credit for that today.

France lost nearly 4-5% of their total population in WW1.

Most of that was young men, like 35ish% of 19-22 year olds were killed.

Just insanity.

 

[Chichikov]

This is why I go berserk everytime I hear some dumb cunt joking about how us french people love to surrender. My great-grandfather lost 2 of his brothers during WWI (not in Verdun though) and my family (on my father's side) lost a lot to the trench wars and it wasn't the first time that my family bled for France (I can go back to one of my ancestor serving under Napoleon). So yeah ... The germans humiliated us during WWII. But France is still the country that fought and won the most wars in History (you can check that on wikipedia). It's disgusting that people who respect and even worship their own veterans would shit on the tens of millions of men who died for France by calling them cowards who love to surrender (which couldn't be further from the truth).

/endrant.

Any person that says that is historically ignorant. If anything, the French has a history of being too eager to fight.
And the Wehrmacht facerolled every military force they faced in WWII unless they were outnumbered at least like 2:1. And sheeeeit, the BEF got stomped just as bad, only difference is that Churchill was really good with propaganda and made Dunkirk look like a victory (which by the way would not have happen if the French forces haven't covered the British forces as they bravely ran away, away, at great cost to them).

With that being said, Verdun is nothing to be proud of, a pointless and tragic loss of life (though most of WWI could be categorized as such).

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Historically, it had been an important fortress:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Verdun#R.C3.A9gion_Fortifi.C3.A9e_de_Verdun

It's a little weird as an American, since we just haven't had many battles on our own doorstep. There aren't a lot of places in the US that hold significant symbolic value. But it's easy to picture a sense of pride -- as long as Verdun holds, so does France.

The entire American Civil War had fewer casualties than the Battle of Verdun.

The Russians feel the same way about the Battle of Stalingrad, regarded as the bloodiest battle in all of human history with roughly 2 million killed, injured, or missing. That battle more or less was the turning point in WWII and probably prevented the Nazis from overrunning Russia and winning the war.

 

[Magni]

Verdun used to be a plain. All those hills are from mortars and other shells. One of the most tragic battles in human history. So much senseless death and destruction.

My great-grandmother's family is from Champagne (they fled south during the second war), which is not that far off from Verdun. She's named after an older brother who died before she was born. He found a leftover grenade on his way to school in the 1920s

 

[UnforgivenTwin]

If I could recommend a show about WW1,it's Apocalypse WW1. It's colorized footage of the war and it really helps you understand the true horror that these poor people went through. Very good watch.

 

[Dougald]

I find WW1 more and more grotesque the more I learn about it.

I recommend The Great War on YouTube to anyone interested in the first world war. They have been doing weekly recaps of the war as it was 100 years ago since the 100th anniversary of Franz Ferdinands assassination. It really gave me a new perspective on how things were day to day.

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

263.000 dead in total. That means 26300 per month. 875 dead per day. 36 people dead per hour.

War is the worst of mankind.

 

[DirtyManos]

Yeah, count me as another person who learned more about this battle from Hardcore History.

It's absolutely frightening and terrible the numbers of lives sacrificed for ultimately nothing. I would think there was no worse battle (or war) in mankind's history. The toll those men paid is unimaginable.

The picture of the battlefield today is sobering to say the least.

 

[xenist]

Any person that says that is historically ignorant. If anything, the French has a history of being too eager to fight.

Exactly. In fact, a large part of European political history prior to Bismark unifying Germany has been about everyone else fighting to keep France contained.

But that would mean reading a couple of books and not relying on TV comedies for historical knowledge.

 

[Osahi]

I hadn't read about the Iron Harvest before. Amazing. 900 tons of munitions recovered a year, even today?!

Yeah, it is crazy. Everybody over here in belgium knows the phenomenon. I am not from the place where the frontline was, but when i did a bike trip there in plowing season I saw a ton of munition lying next to the fields. If I am not mistaken we have official wounded victims of wwi, acknowledged by the government, that were born decades after the war, because they got hurt by the munitions. EDIT: looked it up. Youngest living belgian ww1 voctim is 34. She got severely wounded at a summer camp when she was nine, when a campfire was built in a field. Unknowingly to the campers there was an unexploded shel in the ground under the fire, and due to the heath it went of.

You also have a lot of body's coming up on the fields. Every year a few of them. They still try to identify them and give them a proper funeral with their family. It are usually english soldiers, as the belgians did not really fight in their sector once the front was locked up. Not only was there a lot of flooded no man's land, it is said belgian generals quickly realised the futility of storming the trenches (it helps to be a small country with fewer cannon fodder to spare perhaps...)

About the iron harvest: there is also a legendary tv fragment of two farmers explaining the danger to two polish season workers, but i think it is only funny when you speak Flemish (they explain it in a hilarious mix of "english" and their dialect ) I am on mobile know, but will try to find it on youtube later.

 

[Orthogonal]

Yeah, count me as another person who learned more about this battle from Hardcore History.

It's absolutely frightening and terrible the numbers of lives sacrificed for ultimately nothing. I would think there was no worse battle (or war) in mankind's history. The toll those men paid is unimaginable.

The picture of the battlefield today is sobering to say the least.

The Battle of Stalingrad certainly ranks up there and is arguably worse, especially considering the stakes.

I haven't done a lot of research into WWI, but it has piqued my interest. WWII gets all the attention.

 

[CheDominik]

The Battle of Stalingrad certainly ranks up there and is arguably worse, especially considering the stakes.

I haven't done a lot of research into WWI, but it has piqued my interest. WWII gets all the attention.

Read The Sleepwalkers: How Europe Went to War in 1914 by Christopher Clark. It's been published recently and is up to date with modern research and it's written by an actual historian. He really does a good job painting a picture how much of a clusterfuck Europe was and how the war was inevitable and every side of the conflict wanted it.

 

[bomma_man]

It's impossible to comprehend how horrific the western front was. Imagine coming back after seeing that and being expected to get on with it, in a society that didn't understand or recognise mental illness.

 

[CoolOff]

Read The Sleepwalkers: How Europe Went to War in 1914 by Christopher Clark. He really does a good job painting a picture how much of a clusterfuck Europe was and how the war was inevitable and every side of the conflict wanted it.

Read this last year, one of the best factual books I've ever read.

 

[Switch Back 9]

Read The Sleepwalkers: How Europe Went to War in 1914 by Christopher Clark. He really does a good job painting a picture how much of a clusterfuck Europe was and how the war was inevitable and every side of the conflict wanted it.

The War That Ended Peace by Margaret MacMillan is another excellent book that essentially paints a similar picture. One way or the other, this shit was going to happen-even though it could have completely avoided multiple times.

 

[DirtyManos]

The Battle of Stalingrad certainly ranks up there and is arguably worse, especially considering the stakes.

I haven't done a lot of research into WWI, but it has piqued my interest. WWII gets all the attention.

Though Stalingrad definitely saw far more casualties and in a shorter time period, the loss of life could in some part be understood due to how important the battle was in turning the tide of war against the Germans on the Eastern Front.

Verdun, which did not even result in the highest amount of casualties in the war, signifies more of the terribleness of tactics and almost pointlessness of engagements that represented so much of WW1. In that vein, it seems far worse for me in the sins of mankind.

Edit: I should correct myself and also say, I don't mean to be getting into any argument of "ranking of horribleness" regarding battles in history. All war is terrible, and the loss of life in these battles should always be remembered. Hopefully through their sacrifices we have learned from our mistakes.

 

[Kathian]

The insane thing about the start of the War was everyone was so ready to suggest that the War would be won not by a strategic victory over geography or resources but by a war of attrition . This is what lead to the Western Front.

Later in the War things changed. World War 2 tactics were invented as the West grasped how to have strategic victories.

The War was in the end won by a sea blockade and Germany Naval reluctance to fight rather than a war of attrition which seemingly no one had worked out as long as you had X number on the front you'd do alright; which basically meant the generals at the start of the War had the grand idea of bleeding each other White, at no point I feel did they realise this would last until all you had left with the X number on the front.

 

[Chichikov]

The insane thing about the start of the War was everyone was so ready to suggest that the War would be won not by a strategic victory over geography or resources but by a war of attrition . This is what lead to the Western Front.

The Germans definitely didn't plan for a war of attrition, the goal of the Schlieffen plan was achieve swift victory through geographic conquest.
Only when it stalled did people start coming up with the idea of bleeding the other side dry (though some historians suggest that even that was mostly a rationalization after the fact to excuse the wasteful nature of battles like Verdun).

 

[Maedre]

Read The Sleepwalkers: How Europe Went to War in 1914 by Christopher Clark. It's been published recently and is up to date with modern research and it's written by an actual historian. He really does a good job painting a picture how much of a clusterfuck Europe was and how the war was inevitable and every side of the conflict wanted it.

I can't emphasise this book enough. such a good read.

 

[CyclopsRock]

The Battle of Stalingrad certainly ranks up there and is arguably worse, especially considering the stakes.

I haven't done a lot of research into WWI, but it has piqued my interest. WWII gets all the attention.

I think WW2 is objectively more "interesting" - politically, for its repercussions, for the technical and tactical developments it caused, for the truly global nature of it etc. Generally speaking, most people come away from studying WW2 thinking "that was interesting" and most people come away from studying WW1 thinking "that was stupid". The enormous detachment between the officer classes and the infantry in the trenches just meant it was a giant, dumb game of checkers (not even chess) paid for with lives. IMO WW2 deserves our study, WW1 deserves our pity

 

[Shuggananas]

This is why I go berserk everytime I hear some dumb cunt joking about how us french people love to surrender. My great-grandfather lost 2 of his brothers during WWI (not in Verdun though) and my family (on my father's side) lost a lot to the trench wars and it wasn't the first time that my family bled for France (I can go back to one of my ancestor serving under Napoleon). So yeah ... The germans humiliated us during WWII. But France is still the country that fought and won the most wars in History (you can check that on wikipedia). It's disgusting that people who respect and even worship their own veterans would shit on the tens of millions of men who died for France by calling them cowards who love to surrender (which couldn't be further from the truth).

/endrant.

Just ignore these dumbshits, France won the longest war ever but people don't seem to know there's history before 1800 too

I think WW2 is objectively more "interesting" - politically, for its repercussions, for the technical and tactical developments it caused, for the truly global nature of it etc. Generally speaking, most people come away from studying WW2 thinking "that was interesting" and most people come away from studying WW1 thinking "that was stupid". The enormous detachment between the officer classes and the infantry in the trenches just meant it was a giant, dumb game of checkers (not even chess) paid for with lives. IMO WW2 deserves our study, WW1 deserves our pity

WWI also doesn't have nazis and A-bombs

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

World War 2 has taken up so much of our attention in pop culture. It's more recent, and its legacies remain- From the cold war that followed from the divide of east and west, and from the long peace- A state of ensured mutual destruction when man had the capability to end all life on earth through firepower.




But I've read that from the french point of view, World War 1, was a much more graving experience due to an extreme loss of life. And to top it off, to have such a death toll over one of the most pointless wars in history is hard to believe.
There aren't many good war stories about World War 1, there aren't many good video games about WW1. Unlike WW2 it hasn't made it out as something we talk about often. Not a story with villains and heroes and ideals and such.

But it really should be. Because WW1 explains WW2. And with the entire Greece failure, I think key lessons were not learned from the German Reparations act after WW1 ended.