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Verdun: 100 years ago yesterday, the Germans began a battle to "bleed France white"

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I know I'm only one person from US, but since France helped the colonies during the Revolutionary war, I always think of France as our brother/sister. If that makes sense...just woke up and can't phrase things well yet. France will never not have my respect.

How many republics was this ago? I don't understand this national mindset.
Like the Habsburgs started WW1 but I as an Austrian don't feel even remotely responsible for it. Same with WW2 and the Holocaust I don't believe in Erbschuld, the other way around too of course.

May that's just opportunistic though.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Something else I heard that I found very interesting was that WW1 was the first time people described PTSD. It was known as "womans hysteria". Insane!!!

This isn't true. People have described and had names for PTSD for centuries before WWI and certainly in modern military engagements prior to it (in the US Civil War it was "soldier's heart", previous to WWI it was sometimes just called "battle fatigue", etc.) The difference is that it wasn't usually treated or often recognized as a long-term mental issue until really the 1970s and 80s.

And more broadly, while it's true that Americans tend to over-stress their role and importance in the war, the British do the same, maybe even to a higher degree.

Like how Britain usually forgets that their best pilots during the Battle of Britain were Poles, who Churchill and the allies shafted royally after the war.
 
One also has to take into account that many Russian deaths can be attributed to Stalin. First, he had basically executed every senior military official prior to the war that even most a hint of a threat to his rule. This of course reeked havoc on his military when war broke out and suddenly he had no competent military leaders, only individuals who knew how to throw men into the meat grinder. Then there was the policy of executing retreating soldiers, denying supplies to his own civilians, forcing them to burn their properties and supplies, and even executing his own civilians.

Second, of course, is the brutal policies enacted by the Nazis in fighting the Russians. The Germans, and Hitler, despised the Russians and they were treated on near the same level as Jews. Russian civilians were routinely rounded up and executed in addition to being sent to forced labor camps or concentration camps. The Nazis also didn't have the supplies to feed the often massive amounts of Russian soldiers that had surrendered during the early days of the war. Many of those prisoners ended up dying of starvation.

While I do think that the Eastern Front is often misrepresented in its efforts in winning the war I do think there is also a tendency by others to bolster the efforts of the Russians as if they did a greater amount of effort winning the war simply because more of their people died during the war.
The object of war is have as little of your soldiers die while completing your objectives, the fact that U.S./Alled forces were able to win the war with significantly less casualties than the Soviets does not mean they contributed less to the war effort.

Red Army was pretty much all around the best army in the world since end of battle of Stalingrad to the end of the WWII. Reason why despite this they still lost a lot of men compared to western allies is that Germans had a shit ton of more men and equipment in the eastern front (Germans also lost a lot more men in eastern front compared to western front). The war would have ended to the defeat of Germans even without the Western front. It would have taken just a bit longer.
 

4Tran

Member
The sheer horror of Verdun is probably best summed up by Leroux's painting "Hell":

verdun-painting.jpg


Evocatively, Verdun is representative of the worst parts of WWI trench warfare - dehumanizing, terrifying, and so very wasteful of lives. However, it arguably made a difference in the overall outcome of the war. At the very least, putting Germany on the strategic defensive, and ultimately honing Allied capabilities to the point where they could make successful attacks in 1918. It's really too bad that France's contributions to World War I are so overlooked in English-language pop history, and that all of these events are largely only remembered for how horrible they were.

I wish WW1 had more relevance in our global cultural memory. Some much of our modern world that we take for granted (the dominance of democratic nation-states, English as the world's language, the rise of Marxist-Leninism, the breakdown of continental empires) directly came as a result of that war.
Not to mention that the entire state of the Middle East stems from the Arab Revolt and the events following it. WWI is every bit as important to modern history as WWII, but it's less recent and less sexy so it's been largely overlooked in pop history. It really doesn't help that WWI's actual history is overly colored by myths and misinterpretations.

That's a weird angle to take on this issue. The biggest misconception propagated by Hollywood is downplaying the eastern front.
I don't think it's all intentional (though certainly some of it was, especially during the cold war) but to a large degree the eastern front *is* world war 2, and it's certainly where it was won, but you wouldn't neccasirly know that from watching movies.
And if the Eastern Front is overlooked, the Second Sino-Japanese War (a legitimate contender for the beginning of World War II) barely registers as a footnote. I get the feeling that World War II is only being properly weighed and studied in the last few years. And that a lot of subjects are still understudied in English.
 
To be honest, i found that viewing WWI and WWII as one single event instead of two events to allow for a much more comprehensive understanding of the processes and characters involved. certainly when looking at military tactics and development.


People have to realize what an immense trauma this war has inflicted on those surviving it. A similar loss of a young generation on such a large scale has never happened before, let alone the many invalids that survived thanks to massive medical advancements... the aftermath of this war was apocalyptic.
 
This is why I go berserk everytime I hear some dumb cunt joking about how us french people love to surrender. My great-grandfather lost 2 of his brothers during WWI (not in Verdun though) and my family (on my father's side) lost a lot to the trench wars and it wasn't the first time that my family bled for France (I can go back to one of my ancestor serving under Napoleon). So yeah ... The germans humiliated us during WWII. But France is still the country that fought and won the most wars in History (you can check that on wikipedia). It's disgusting that people who respect and even worship their own veterans would shit on the tens of millions of men who died for France by calling them cowards who love to surrender (which couldn't be further from the truth).

/endrant.

By the end of the battle of Verdun, WWI had claimed more French soldiers lives than American soldiers have been lost in every war in their history to date...

A big part of the reason WWII was such a disaster is that French had been bled white by the First World War. No one left in France really had the stomach or the talent for war, and in the pause between the wars there was no preparation for a possible followup - indeed I think that to most French the thought of another war was inconceivable before it was finally declared...
 

neeksleep

Member
Really awesome post OP. I'm have never been particularly interested in the war stories (as terrible as that may sound), so this was both interesting and frightening. Hope to see more from you!
 

Sulik2

Member
Evocatively, Verdun is representative of the worst parts of WWI trench warfare - dehumanizing, terrifying, and so very wasteful of lives. However, it arguably made a difference in the overall outcome of the war. At the very least, putting Germany on the strategic defensive, and ultimately honing Allied capabilities to the point where they could make successful attacks in 1918. It's really too bad that France's contributions to World War I are so overlooked in English-language pop history, and that all of these events are largely only remembered for how horrible they were.

This is a great point. Me like most people raised in the USA were taught France was just a pushover country in WWII and worthy of derision. The real history is that France fought an impossible holding battle against the Germans in WWI that is staggering to even comprehend what it cost their country. They were still broken militarily come WWII and quite frankly still have not recovered from their loses when you consider the land that is still uninhabitable in France because of WWI.
 

Sulik2

Member
How many lives are we talkin here? Because the US lost about 1.3 million to the Civil War alone. I think about 600k between WWI and 2. A lot more than that?

If you are counting total casualties, wounded and dead France far outstripped anything the USA had seen combined in WW1. That 4.2 million wounded is a staggering number.

From https://www.pbs.org/greatwar/resources/casdeath_pop.html

Country Total Mobilized Forces Killed Wounded Prisoners and Missing
France 8,410,000 1,357,800 4,266,000 537,000
 
If you are counting total casualties, wounded and dead France far outstripped anything the USA had seen combined in WW1. That 4.2 million wounded is a staggering number.

From https://www.pbs.org/greatwar/resources/casdeath_pop.html

Country Total Mobilized Forces Killed Wounded Prisoners and Missing
France 8,410,000 1,357,800 4,266,000 537,000

WHEW

Yep, Euros broke the mold on how to efficiently kill each other up. Well, wound each other up at least. Death count is pretty similar to the US...if you total all US wars up. lol
 

Sheytan

Member
Yeah it's insane. I still don't understand the mustard gas thing.
Is that the same thing as is still being used today? I've heard that when we talk about chemical weapons in the middle-east a lot of that is mustard gas. Is that the same thing?




Something else I heard that I found very interesting was that WW1 was the first time people described PTSD. It was known as "womans hysteria". Insane!!!

The sad thing that many soldiers that suffered from PTSD got executed for cowardice during WW1.
 

Sulik2

Member
WHEW

Yep, Euros broke the mold on how to efficiently kill each other up. Well, wound each other up at least. Death count is pretty similar to the US...if you total all US wars up. lol

The USA's casualties in the civil war were actually around 650K. There was nothing like WWI in all of human history before that point.
 
And if the Eastern Front is overlooked, the Second Sino-Japanese War (a legitimate contender for the beginning of World War II) barely registers as a footnote. I get the feeling that World War II is only being properly weighed and studied in the last few years. And that a lot of subjects are still understudied in English.

Amen.
 

Mael

Member
"The War to End all Wars" is how we're taught about WWI in France.
I'm old enough I actually managed to meet veterans from that war in school (they're dead now :/).
The worst part of this whole thing is that you can see the premises of the butchery in the skirmishes before like in the Crimean war a century before.
The scale of this war is really unheard of.
the end of the war is a day off, Nov 11th.
It's all about the armistice and we're told that it was a draw more than a victory.
Most of the friendly ribbing you have from French to Germans are from that time too.
As far as France is concerned you can't really say that WWI could have been avoided without going back to 1870.
Mess doesn't even begin to explain everything that really didn't go right with this war.

The sad thing that many soldiers that suffered from PTSD got executed for cowardice during WW1.

Petain is reknowned for his handling of Verdun and also for being less of a hardass on the soldiers.
It cannot be overstated how well liked he was at the time due to that.
He squandered it all by the end of WWII but still.
 

phaze

Member
WHEW

Yep, Euros broke the mold on how to efficiently kill each other up. Well, wound each other up at least. Death count is pretty similar to the US...if you total all US wars up. lol

lol

The fact that US didn't sustain such casualties in their history is simply due to the fact they have never been in a land conflict nearly on the scale of 1914-1918 west front both when it comes the size of the forces involved, density of the troops, evenness of the opposing forces, lenght of the fight and the technological problems involved in gaining ground.
 
By the end of the battle of Verdun, WWI had claimed more French soldiers lives than American soldiers have been lost in every war in their history to date...

A big part of the reason WWII was such a disaster is that French had been bled white by the First World War. No one left in France really had the stomach or the talent for war, and in the pause between the wars there was no preparation for a possible followup - indeed I think that to most French the thought of another war was inconceivable before it was finally declared...

This is a great point. Me like most people raised in the USA were taught France was just a pushover country in WWII and worthy of derision. The real history is that France fought an impossible holding battle against the Germans in WWI that is staggering to even comprehend what it cost their country. They were still broken militarily come WWII and quite frankly still have not recovered from their loses when you consider the land that is still uninhabitable in France because of WWI.



France had pretty much all around superior army to Nazis when the invasion happened in 1940 (more men, more tanks, more artillery, more planes). Between 1918 and 1935 France had spent more of its GPD on military than any other nation. For example while Wehrmacht still had to rely a lot on horses (only 10 % of their army was motorised in 1940 which meant around 120,000 vehicles) France already had highly motorised army (about 300,000 vehicles). Also only 50 percent of the German divisions available in 1940 were combat ready and were usually more poorly equipped than their equivalents in the British and French Armies, or even as well as the German Army of 1914. Reason why French lost so quickly was that they tried to fight the war like it was still 1918. For example while French tanks were otherwise superior to German tanks they didn't usually have radios that made communication between units very slow and gave huge handicap to germans.
 

Mael

Member
France had pretty much all around superior army to Nazis when the invasion happened in 1940 (more men, more tanks, more artillery, more planes). Between 1918 and 1935 France had spent more of its GPD on military than any other nation. For example while Wehrmacht still had to rely a lot on horses (only 10 % of their army was motorised in 1940 which meant around 120,000 vehicles) France already had highly motorised army (about 300,000 vehicles). Also only 50 percent of the German divisions available in 1940 were combat ready and were usually more poorly equipped than their equivalents in the British and French Armies, or even as well as the German Army of 1914. Reason why French lost so quickly was that they tried to fight the war like it was still 1918. For example while French tanks were otherwise superior to German tanks they didn't usually have radios that made communication between units very slow and gave huge handicap to germans.
It also would have helped if they didn't wait behind the Magino Line, I still don't get how that's not synonymous to "useless line in the sand" over "last line of defense" in France....
 

Goro Majima

Kitty Genovese Member
It also would have helped if they didn't wait behind the Magino Line, I still don't get how that's not synonymous to "useless line in the sand" over "last line of defense" in France....

How the Phoney War happened may be the dumbest military strategy ever conceived. World War 2 could have ended in 1939/1940 before ever really kicking off.
 

Verelios

Member
That is horrifying. I can't imagine being a French soldier at the time, knowing I might die for something completely unnecessary, in a nonsensical way. I get shivers thinking of it.
 

phaze

Member
It also would have helped if they didn't wait behind the Magino Line, I still don't get how that's not synonymous to "useless line in the sand" over "last line of defense" in France....

But they did ...

There was no Maginot Line "proper" (like there was against Saar and rest) where 7th Army, BEF and most of Army Group 1 were and these were the formations that moved into the belgium.

How the Phoney War happened may be the dumbest military strategy ever conceived. World War 2 could have ended in 1939/1940 before ever really kicking off.

How would that transpire exactly ?
 

Mael

Member
Verdun is up there with Gettysburg and Stalingrad for Shit I can't even comprehend how it happened. War is insane.

Comparing the 3, there's one that haven't even made more than 100k casualties.
It's closer to the Battle of Malakoff.
I know the Civil War is kind of an important war for americans but Gettysburg is kinda artisan's work compared to the industry of death that was Verdun and Stalingrad.
Seriously that's a deathtoll on a scale pretty unheard of.
Take any one French family you can find someone's great grandfather who died there, the collective memory is etched in the flesh of the countrymen.
It forced women into labor in factories because there was simply not enough men afterwards.
 

Goro Majima

Kitty Genovese Member
But they did ...

There was no Maginot Line "proper" where 7th Army, BEF and most of Army Group 1 were and these were the formations that moved into the belgium.



How would that transpire exactly ?

Per wikipedia

At the Nuremberg Trials, German military commander Alfred Jodl said that "if we did not collapse already in the year 1939 that was due only to the fact that during the Polish campaign, the approximately 110 French and British divisions in the West were held completely inactive against the 23 German divisions."

General Siegfried Westphal stated, that if the French had attacked in force in September 1939 the German army "could only have held out for one or two weeks."
 
WHEW

Yep, Euros broke the mold on how to efficiently kill each other up. Well, wound each other up at least. Death count is pretty similar to the US...if you total all US wars up. lol

The scale of the World Wars blows anything else out of the water. We are definitely spoiled today when it comes to misery and death, though that's not any consolation to people experiencing war right now. 4,809 coalition forces died in the ~8 years of the Iraq War (combined forces of a few countries) while the first day of the Somme Britain alone lost 57,000. The world wars completely shattered Europe and it made a simply unprecedented, miraculous recovery in a really short time.
 

Sulik2

Member
France had pretty much all around superior army to Nazis when the invasion happened in 1940 (more men, more tanks, more artillery, more planes). Between 1918 and 1935 France had spent more of its GPD on military than any other nation. For example while Wehrmacht still had to rely a lot on horses (only 10 % of their army was motorised in 1940 which meant around 120,000 vehicles) France already had highly motorised army (about 300,000 vehicles). Also only 50 percent of the German divisions available in 1940 were combat ready and were usually more poorly equipped than their equivalents in the British and French Armies, or even as well as the German Army of 1914. Reason why French lost so quickly was that they tried to fight the war like it was still 1918. For example while French tanks were otherwise superior to German tanks they didn't usually have radios that made communication between units very slow and gave huge handicap to germans.

Being broken doesn't necessarily mean numbers. The fact they couldn't escape the ideas of World War I and we're desperate to stop Germany with a big fort was a sign that as a country they were still stuck on the horrors of WWI and unable to move past them. The mental scars of the Great War affected their ability to wage war in a modern mobile context.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Comparing the 3, there's one that haven't even made more than 100k casualties.
It's closer to the Battle of Malakoff.
I know the Civil War is kind of an important war for americans but Gettysburg is kinda artisan's work compared to the industry of death that was Verdun and Stalingrad.
Seriously that's a deathtoll on a scale pretty unheard of.
Take any one French family you can find someone's great grandfather who died there, the collective memory is etched in the flesh of the countrymen.
It forced women into labor in factories because there was simply not enough men afterwards.

At least from a global perspective, I don't think Europeans realize how much the American Civil War demonstrated refined modern warfare, even over the Crimean war. Rifles and shells, sure, but more consequently the importance of railroads, aerial recon, telegraph communications, mines, torpedoes, ironclad ships and submarines, photography and the telegraph. Sure, it was potatoes in terms of deaths compared to absolute totals of WWI, but without the civil war the technological landscape and everyone's theories going into the war about how it would have been fought would have been very different.
 

Mael

Member
At least from a global perspective, I don't think Europeans realize how much the American Civil War demonstrated what was coming and conceived modern warfare. Rifles and shells, sure, but more consequently the importance of railroads, aerial recon, telegraph communications, mines, torpedoes, ironclad ships and submarines, photography and the telegraph. Sure, it was potatoes in terms of deaths compared to absolute totals of WWI, but without the civil war the technological landscape and everyone's theories going into the war about how it would have been fought would have been very different.

In term of wars you can be sure that if 1 war didn't happen another would have proven the advancement useful.
Funny thing though, the French Empire tried to "weaponize" the Mexican situation to have a catholic Empire in the New World but the end of the Civil war and other factors pretty much put an end to that.
This along with Bismarck pretty much killed the 2nd Empire.
French autocrats must really fucking hate the US :lol
One is pretty much the reason the Bourbon dynasty ended and the other is got severely set back by it in another way.
 

phaze

Member
Per wikipedia

Getting a major deja vu here.

Oh I know why:

-
-Germans spouted a lot of crap about war. Given that Jodl had no access to French OoB his statement on their forces is worthless. Given that what he said about German forces is at odds with documentary evidence makes him either: a liar/ a moron. You pick one.

-In 1939 Westphal was a lowly staff officer in an Infantry Division and as such had no clue about capabilities of forces deployed therein.


Look at German situation map for 25 September and count the divisions.

The 110 number for the french forces is sort of ridiculous since that more or less the number they had in April 1940. In September it was more like ~50-60 in various stages of mobilisation. IIRC.
 

4Tran

Member
This is a great point. Me like most people raised in the USA were taught France was just a pushover country in WWII and worthy of derision. The real history is that France fought an impossible holding battle against the Germans in WWI that is staggering to even comprehend what it cost their country. They were still broken militarily come WWII and quite frankly still have not recovered from their loses when you consider the land that is still uninhabitable in France because of WWI.
France's contribution in WWI is criminally understated in English-language historiography. For all of 1914 to mid-1916, French troops accounted for around 3/4ths of all Allied troops on the Western Front. Even after that date, they were the bulk of Allied strength to the very end of the war. But because French historians don't write English-language books, most of what they did tends to get glossed over. This is especially true of the 1914-1915 period. I've read a lot of WWI history books, but it's still rare to come across much mention of French actions during that period outside of the Battle of the Marne.

I heard that it started when a bloke called Archie Duke shot an ostrich 'cause he was hungry.
Not knowing how WWI started is probably one of the lesser pieces of misinformation. The bigger ones would be thinking that WWI was just the Western Front and that the Western Front was only static trench warfare. Those feed into the perception that nothing significant happened during the war therefore there's nothing worth studying in it. The reality is that not only was WWI extremely historically significant but that every major modern military weapon (with the exception of the nuclear bomb and missile) was either pioneered or brought to the forefront during it.

The USA's casualties in the civil war were actually around 650K. There was nothing like WWI in all of human history before that point.
I'd correct that to Western history. The Mongol conquests, the An-Shi Rebellions, and the Taiping Rebellion all killed as much or more people. Admittedly, these are all even more understudied in English-language historiography.
 
WW1 but yeah, exactly. WW2 basically changed the world where as WW2 was "just" a massive tragedy that - as evidenced by WW2 - not only failed to change anything meaningfully but went some way to ensuring WW2 would happen.
I've been beaten to the punch on this, but ww1 absolutely transformed the world, just by its sheer horror and expense.

The dissolution of empires (the middle east, the balkans). The mass transfer of wealth from europe to the USA. The rise of communism in russia. The world today is still feeling the repercussions of ww1.

The tragedy was thorough. No one won the war, some just lost more than others. But probably the biggest tragedy of all was the treaty of Versailles, the lack of US involvement in the league of nations, and the end result: we did it all again 20 years later.
 
How many lives are we talkin here? Because the US lost about 1.3 million to the Civil War alone. I think about 600k between WWI and 2. A lot more than that?

Well, the numbers you're talking here are "casualties" (that's killed and wounded) as the Civil War claimed about 600,000 soldiers dead... but the French lost more than 6,000,000 servicemen - more than 70% of their entire army dead or wounded - over the course of WWI... as others have said, it was an apocalyptic war for them...
 
I'd correct that to Western history. The Mongol conquests, the An-Shi Rebellions, and the Taiping Rebellion all killed as much or more people. Admittedly, these are all even more understudied in English-language historiography.

Yeah but those are quite a bit longer than WWI. You have WWI at 4 years, An-Shi at about 10, Taiping at 14, and the Mongol Conquests at over 100 years.

I've been beaten to the punch on this, but ww1 absolutely transformed the world, just by its sheer horror and expense.

The dissolution of empires (the middle east, the balkans). The mass transfer of wealth from europe to the USA. The rise of communism in russia. The world today is still feeling the repercussions of ww1.

The tragedy was thorough. No one won the war, some just lost more than others. But probably the biggest tragedy of all was the treaty of Versailles, the lack of US involvement in the league of nations, and the end result: we did it all again 20 years later.

Don't forget the modern middle east! You have the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the rise of Saudi Arabia, the beginnings of the modern state of Israel, and the establishment of various states drawn to fit French and British aspirations in the area.
 
How the Phoney War happened may be the dumbest military strategy ever conceived. World War 2 could have ended in 1939/1940 before ever really kicking off.
I think this take really, really underestimates the strength of the Wehrmacht.

They were more or less unstoppable. It took tens of millions of russian casualties and 3 Russian winters to break that army. Hard to imagine any of the European powers doing that.
 

Ogodei

Member
"The War to End all Wars" is how we're taught about WWI in France.
I'm old enough I actually managed to meet veterans from that war in school (they're dead now :/).
The worst part of this whole thing is that you can see the premises of the butchery in the skirmishes before like in the Crimean war a century before.
The scale of this war is really unheard of.
the end of the war is a day off, Nov 11th.
It's all about the armistice and we're told that it was a draw more than a victory.
Most of the friendly ribbing you have from French to Germans are from that time too.
As far as France is concerned you can't really say that WWI could have been avoided without going back to 1870.
Mess doesn't even begin to explain everything that really didn't go right with this war.



Petain is reknowned for his handling of Verdun and also for being less of a hardass on the soldiers.
It cannot be overstated how well liked he was at the time due to that.
He squandered it all by the end of WWII but still.

Squandered is an understatement. Dude sided with Hitler and then the Vichy French fought the Allies in places like Algeria, Senegal, Syria, and Madagascar.

Or was he less involved with the actual decisions of the Vichy regime? I know he was old enough to the point where the French, despite their reprisals against collaborators, let him live out his days in jail instead of executing him after the Liberation.
 
I think this take really, really underestimates the strength of the Wehrmacht.

They were more or less unstoppable. It took tens of millions of russian casualties and 3 Russian winters to break that army. Hard to imagine any of the European powers doing that.

it's the proximity of France to the primary areas of production (Ruhr region) that would be a factor though, combined with the inability to consolidate and strengthen existing units. Had the Westen nations (Belgium, Netherlands) allowed for it, easy and direct access to critical area's would have crippled German production (though they did / moved quite a bit to the east due to British bombardment later on).
Same reason Verdun mattered so much to the French in WWI, it's the one place where the two nations have direct contact and a shorter line to each other's throat.

You should also keep in mind that Germany was a demilitarized nation until Hitler decided to ignore WWI treaties, so all their resources were build in a very short amount of time, but the Wehrmacht wasn't at that point at that time. Had Europe allied up right there and then, the chances of the history that we know not having happened are quite good. But spreading fear and discontent was Hitler's speciality as well, with the other nations not wanting another war (and even the nazi's themselves weren't thrilled about it at the start).

Also, the area around it ( Elzas-Lotharingen ) has shifted ownership between them many times. It's the primary reason the European Parlement shifts between Strasbourg / Straßburg and Brussel, since otherwise doing that dance would be really silly. It's considered silly now though, with both cities now basically trying to maintain their status as unofficial 'capital' of the EU.


All this is pretty much why any talk about leaving the EU (Britain) is basically insane people talk. Europe has a history of being almost permanently at war with everyone else, the whole idea of a trade union is not so much to make trade easier, but preventing a continuously flammable mix from sparking into a full flame again. For a real example of this, go read up on the collapse and following conflict of former Yugoslavia. It's not pretty.
 

Sulik2

Member
I'd correct that to Western history. The Mongol conquests, the An-Shi Rebellions, and the Taiping Rebellion all killed as much or more people. Admittedly, these are all even more understudied in English-language historiography.

Except for maybe the mongols, they actually did kill at modern efficency in battle, most of the deaths in those big rebellions were related to starvation weren't they? I really don't know much about those conflicts outside the massive death counts associated with them. Seems likely to me though that the actual amount of human beings wounded or killed in the world wars literally wasn't possible in earlier history when the earth had smaller populations.
 

Mael

Member
Squandered is an understatement. Dude sided with Hitler and then the Vichy French fought the Allies in places like Algeria, Senegal, Syria, and Madagascar.

Or was he less involved with the actual decisions of the Vichy regime? I know he was old enough to the point where the French, despite their reprisals against collaborators, let him live out his days in jail instead of executing him after the Liberation.

No, that was a figure of speech. A euphemism if you will.
That scumbag was spared because of his WWI fame.
That is the only reason why there is still a modicum of respect for the traitor.
The rank of Marshal of France is the highest distinction there is in the French military (there is none currently and the last one was named in the 90's I think), Petain's marshalship(or whatever you wanna call it) is only due to his work in WWI and I'm pretty sure he was struck out of it by the Liberation.
No seriously fuck that guy and anyone who worked with or for him.
 

4Tran

Member
Don't forget the modern middle east! You have the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the rise of Saudi Arabia, the beginnings of the modern state of Israel, and the establishment of various states drawn to fit French and British aspirations in the area.
Not to mention that a lot of the problems in the Middle East stem from countries having unnatural borders. Those borders also stem from WWI (and Versailles).

Except for maybe the mongols, they actually did kill at modern efficency in battle, most of the deaths in those big rebellions were related to starvation weren't they?
Starvation and disease have always been responsible for more wartime deaths than actual combat. They were big contributors for deaths in World War I as well.

I really don't know much about those conflicts outside the massive death counts associated with them. Seems likely to me though that the actual amount of human beings wounded or killed in the world wars literally wasn't possible in earlier history when the earth had smaller populations.
The reason why earlier wars seemed to have much fewer deaths than modern ones is because English-language history is very European-focused, and European wars tended to have small armies in the period between Rome and Napoleon. Asian armies, especially Chinese ones, could get much larger and so the wars they got involved in could be much more calamitous.

Global population numbers can also be a bit misleading. For example, the population of France in 1900 was about 38 million while China has had at least double that many people for almost the entirety of its history. As a historical note, medieval France had a population hovering around 20 million.

It's also not surprising to not know about these conflicts because almost no one writes anything in English about them. Heck, I think that I read more about the An-Shi Rebellions from a fantasy novel by Guy Gavriel Kay than from any history book!
 
I used to think the same thing until i read up on it much more extensively. The Great War utterly collapsed 2 European empires, one Eurasian, and one middle eastern. It obliterated the north of France and it bankrupted the British.

The Great War was the single greatest event to happen for American Industry and nascent super-power venture. They effectively gained Europe's gold reserves and pivoted world trade at the cost of a "paltry" 60 thousand dead.

Those were trends that were going to happen anyway, though - there was no version of the future in which Europe maintained its empires and the US remained an isolationist, inward looking industrialised-by-not-totally country a la the turn of the century. WW1 certainly hurried those things along, but they were very much in motion. I don't think the same can necessarily be said of the US and Japan's relationship (pivoting from the A-Bomb to a de facto imperial relationship leading to the two largest economies in the world for a few decades also being best buds), the thread of a Bolshevik Russia causing a until-now-constantly-war'ing Europe to band together with North America to look Eastwards etc. These are all things that could certainly have not happened had WW2 gone differently or not occurred at all, and they shaped the 2nd half of the 21st century in, I think, a more meaningful way than the outcome of WW1 did (allowing for, again, the fact that WW1 lead directly to WW2).
 

Rest

All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
There's some truth to that comparison. A huge % of WWI shells were shrapnel, meaning you fired a big hunk of metal at the ground (far away) with the intent that it would break into many smaller, deadly pieces of metal. Of course, the Moon has had 4.5 or so billion years to develop its landscape of impact craters. Verdun's was made in 10 months.


I feel you, man. I think it's mostly ignorance. Over here it's easy to for people to cut history and put a bow around it right at WWII, and pretend nothing happened before that (or... after...) because USA USA USA.
I think the English make a much bigger deal of it than Americans do.
 
Also without exporting hunger to the colonies at famine levels.

Pretty famous churchill quote around when asked about what happens to the indian's going through a famine due to the policies they enacted to extract more foodstuffs he basically said fuck 'em, they deserve it.

Holy shit. How did I not know about this!??? Of course, being in the UK he's celebrated as one of the greatest Briton's to have ever lived, so yeah, utterly terribly qualities about a "hero" would be suppressed.

It's almost like, it took an even bigger bastard to appear to make him appear to look like a hero.
 
Reason why French lost so quickly was that they tried to fight the war like it was still 1918. For example while French tanks were otherwise superior to German tanks they didn't usually have radios that made communication between units very slow and gave huge handicap to germans.

I'd say the reason they lost so quickly was because of a spectacular gamble by the German high command that resulted in a large portion of the best French formations being pocketed in the low countries. The French deployed their strategic reserve north instead of keeping it behind, in an attempt to link up with the Dutch. If the 7th army smashed into the side of the schwerpunkt, or even just managed to prevent a breakthrough, it's entirely possible that the Germans lose the war within 2 years without even involving the Russians. They might try to pounce at the last minute to get in on the action anyway, of course.

Without the resources, labour, machinery of the conquered Western provinces, with the Italians unwilling to commit to an attack if the Germans seem to be losing, the Commonwealth mobilising, the British raising new formations, and US war materials flooding into the continent in 1941, things look grim for the thousand year Reich.

Holy shit. How did I not know about this!??? Of course, being in the UK he's celebrated as one of the greatest Briton's to have ever lived, so yeah, utterly terribly qualities about a "hero" would be suppressed.

It's almost like, it took an even bigger bastard to appear to make him appear to look like a hero.

It's not suppressed, it's disputed, you can find all sorts of sources saying wildly varying things. Some sources claim the British deliberately exported food and didn't care about starvation, some claim that the British burned food stocks of starving Bengalis, while others paint a more complicated picture.

India-wide food production was unusually low that year, but it actually was clear neither to the people at the time or to historians today what the levels of production were because the accuracy of production statistics could be favourably described as poor. Trade barriers were voted into existence in 1942 by local Indian governments (under powers granted to them by the British which gave them more autonomy in the '30s), which they then refused to repeal in 1943 which blocked trade from the surplus areas to the famine areas. The easy access routes to Bengal itself were problematic, since the up-river trade was how most of it came in, and many of these boats had been removed or requisitioned because of the imminent Japanese invasion. The only easy way in was rail lines, which were used, and some food deliveries were recorded in the period, but not enough came in. Direct resupply via the ocean was "technically" possible, but for reference, the Japanese Navy was like 70 miles from Calcutta in the time period we're talking about.

I've seen Indian nationalist sources say that Churchill personally was responsible for 7 million deaths in Bengal, thus making him worse than Hitler. Other estimates put the death toll at 1.5 million. Others at anywhere between that and 4 million. Real talk answer here is I don't fucking know who is to blame exactly for what and who could have done more. It wasn't the only Indian famine in Bengal in WWII, but the one in 40-41 got dealt with fairly well. It kind of paints a different narrative in the full context, I don't think Churchill is personally to blame, at least not directly in terms of him being able to stop it but consciously, maliciously unwilling.
 

LJ11

Member
I used to think the same thing until i read up on it much more extensively. The Great War utterly collapsed 2 European empires, one Eurasian, and one middle eastern. It obliterated the north of France and it bankrupted the British.

The Great War was the single greatest event to happen for American Industry and nascent super-power venture. They effectively gained Europe's gold reserves and pivoted world trade at the cost of a "paltry" 60 thousand dead.

There's a great book by Adam Tooze, The Deluge, that covers this angle and a few more, it's a fantastic read.

Enjoyed reading through the thread, good job by the OP. ;)
 
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