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[speculawyer]

But it gets worse. It raises the general sales. So the single mom who rides the subway and buys some diapers has to pay higher sales taxes to pay for the roads because the cars no longer pay gas tax that goes for the roads.

What the fuck?

Shouldn't the people that use something pay for it? Shouldn't the cars that drive on the roads pay for the roads? That would be sound economics. That would be conservative. These people are just fucking crazy.

The bill
raises the registration fees for vehicles and trailers and designates these increased revenues for the Commonwealth Mass Transit Fund and the Intercity Passenger Rail Operating and Capital Fund.

The bill raises the state sales and use tax from 4% to 4.8% and designates the increased revenues for the Commonwealth Transportation Fund.

The bill establishes procedures for the collection of the state sales and use tax from remote sellers for sales made in the Commonwealth, contingent upon the federal government passing legislation authorizing such collection. In the event that such revenues are collected, a portion of the revenues will be allocated to the localities with a stipulation that some of the funds be used by the locality for transportation needs and a portion of the revenues will be deposited in the Transportation Trust Fund.

The bill eliminates the statewide taxation of gasoline and blended fuel containing gasoline under the Virginia Fuels Act but leaves the current tax in place for other types of motor fuels.

The bill raises the annual license fee for electric vehicles from $50 to $100 and imposes the fee on hybrid electric vehicles and alternative fuel vehicles.

The bill repeals the application of the local sales and use tax to the sale of certain fuels used for domestic consumption, and replaces the revenue for the localities that imposed the sales and use tax with a portion of the new revenues generated by the bill.

http://www.richmondsunlight.com/bill/2013/hb2313

 

[entremet]

Oh, GOP.

Transportation legislation in the US downright assisine though. It's not green. It's not sustainable. It's not mix modal.

 

[GrizzNKev]

Ok, now I'm really mad.

 

[wenis]

Some days I can't wait for our vast Mad Max dystopia.

 

[speculawyer]

Think about it . . . if you buy a gas car then you pay no gas tax. If you buy hybrid to be more fuel efficient then you have to pay an extra tax. THEY ARE PUNISHING YOU FOR BEING EFFICIENT, SAVING GASOLINE, AND POLLUTING LESS.


What is next? Will they make you pay an extra tax if you don't smoke?

 

[Timedog]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAAHSLDKFJA;LDSKFJA;LKSDJFA;LSKDJF;ALKSDJF

EDIT: WOW WHAT???

 

[TCRS]

every day is opposite day in Virginia.

 

[Acorn]

Some days I can't wait for our vast Mad Max dystopia.

But without gas you won't have fuck awesome buggys.

 

[Timedog]

If shit starts getting this bad, I *might* actually start agreeing with people that think you should have to pass an IQ test to vote.

 

[Zaptruder]

Ladies and Gentleman. The collectively worst group of people in the world, continue to be, collectively, the worst group of people in the world.

Spoiler

If you take umbrage - then know that I think they're the worst group of people in the world because of how much power they exert on it - less that because I think they're the most evil group of people in the world (they're not)

 

[HyperionX]

You guys should watch Who Killed the Electric Car. The oil companies and car companies pulled of a lot of the same shit we're seeing now back in the 1990s. History is just repeating itself again.

 

[NoRéN]

You guys should watch Who Killed the Electric Car. The oil companies and car companies pulled of a lot of the same shit we're seeing now back in the 1990s. History is just repeating itself again.

In Elon Musk we trust.

Fight the power!

 

[miked808]

We have the worst traffic in the country here. All this is to raise money for infrastructure improvements. Electric and Hybrid cars get to ride in the HOV lanes for free even if there is one person in the car. In increase of $50 annual is pennies.

They also raise the sales tax to 4.8 from 4%, while lowering the gas tax which 99% of Virginias drivers pay. I travel to DC everyday and pay 10% sales tax there, go to Maryland and it's 6%.

 

[Charlatan]

You do realize that the fee being charged electric cars is because they don't pay the 17.5% gas tax (that's 17.5% tax per gallon - and since electric cars don't use gas, they don't buy gas. Since they don't buy gas, they don't pay this tax). So by charging this fee, electric cars *are* being charged for using the roads, which is what a lot of the outrage above seems to be about.

And municipalities everywhere are starting to face this problem as we move forward, it's been happening with the move to higher mileage cars, and will be exacerbated with hybrid and electric - a lot of the transportation fees are based on gas taxes. Less gas consumption = less revenue.

Someone did a podcast on it a couple of months ago (can't recall if it was Freakanomics or Planet Money). They suggested a tax tied to miles driven, so your actual use is tied to how much you're taxed. Getting something like that passed, though, is going to be tough, as it's much simpler to just raise a general tax.

 

[Snkfanatic]

Yep I remember reading about this in the paper (VA resident). I couldn't help but just smash my head into the table.

 

[Madness]

I think hybrid/electric car owners need all the help they can get. Already the cost of most electric cars is more than they'll ever spend in gas. I was thinking about it. So many people say think of all the money you'll save, but what about the initial cost of the car?

Plus, every little bit helps. Even if the world isn't fixable, at least you can make sure your city or state has clean air.

But I disagree with the fact that the burden shouldn't also be on public transportation users. In BC, they fleece drivers, primarily those south of the Fraser and not near Vancouver. And a lot of car owners actually help pay for Skytrain. Sure it's good to have a good public transportation system, but you also have to be fair.

 

[B-Dubs]

You do realize that the fee being charged electric cars is because they don't pay the 17.5% gas tax (that's 17.5% tax per gallon - and since electric cars don't use gas, they don't buy gas. Since they don't buy gas, they don't pay this tax). So by charging this fee, electric cars *are* being charged for using the roads, which is what a lot of the outrage above seems to be about.

And municipalities everywhere are starting to face this problem as we move forward, it's been happening with the move to higher mileage cars, and will be exacerbated with hybrid and electric - a lot of the transportation fees are based on gas taxes. Less gas consumption = less revenue.

Someone did a podcast on it a couple of months ago (can't recall if it was Freakanomics or Planet Money). They suggested a tax tied to miles driven, so your actual use is tied to how much you're taxed. Getting something like that passed, though, is going to be tough, as it's much simpler to just raise a general tax.

Yes but according to the article they are also getting rid of the gas tax, so that's not the issue they are trying to solve.

 

[akira28]

dat Virginia GOP.

 

[Plinko]

Michigan is trying to do this as well.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Why are they getting rid of the gas tax for normal drivers? It would seem like your standard revenue grab if not for that, now it just seems like they're punishing people for not buying gas.

 

[mackattk]

Yes but according to the article they are also getting rid of the gas tax, so that's not the issue they are trying to solve.

I can see this happening, gas tax gets abolished and everyone is so happy to only be paying under $3 for a gallon of gas. I give it 6 months until they increase the gas price to what it was before with the gas tax included.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I can see this happening, gas tax gets abolished and everyone is so happy to only be paying under $3 for a gallon of gas. I give it 6 months until they increase the gas price to what it was before with the gas tax included.

I don't think the state government controls the gas prices.

 

[sonicfan]

Michigan is trying to do this as well.

North Carolina also....


Originally Posted by Charlatan:

You do realize that the fee being charged electric cars is because they don't pay the 17.5% gas tax (that's 17.5% tax per gallon - and since electric cars don't use gas, they don't buy gas. Since they don't buy gas, they don't pay this tax). So by charging this fee, electric cars *are* being charged for using the roads, which is what a lot of the outrage above seems to be about.

And municipalities everywhere are starting to face this problem as we move forward, it's been happening with the move to higher mileage cars, and will be exacerbated with hybrid and electric - a lot of the transportation fees are based on gas taxes. Less gas consumption = less revenue.

Someone did a podcast on it a couple of months ago (can't recall if it was Freakanomics or Planet Money). They suggested a tax tied to miles driven, so your actual use is tied to how much you're taxed. Getting something like that passed, though, is going to be tough, as it's much simpler to just raise a general tax.

This is the real issue, revenue. They tax gas, get used to the revenue, and when the average car starts getting higher MPG, they have a "problem that needs to be fixed", i.e. they need to raise taxes. Same with taxes on cigarettes, states get used to the revenue from high cigarette taxes, people start to smoke less due to health reasons or the high taxes, and all of the sudden there is a revenue shortfall.... But wasn't part of the argument for better mileage cars and lowering smoking that by doing so, our overall costs to society/the state will go down??? Where are all the savings????

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

 

[teruterubozu]

eh, it's just a microcosm of reality. We all pay for gas-guzzling.

 

[Kinyou]

You guys should watch Who Killed the Electric Car. The oil companies and car companies pulled of a lot of the same shit we're seeing now back in the 1990s. History is just repeating itself again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkzBwXNACrM

 

[ClassyPenguin]

You guys should watch Who Killed the Electric Car. The oil companies and car companies pulled of a lot of the same shit we're seeing now back in the 1990s. History is just repeating itself again.

The EV1 was just a shit product at the time when domestics were pumping out shit products all the time. GM also had many managerial issues at the time.

Anyway, this is just stupid GOP trying to appeal to the Tea Party bullshit.

 

[BertramCooper]

Get rid of the gas tax.

Convert more highways to tollways.

 

[double jump]

"So the single mom who rides the subway"

you say that as if VA has any sort of public transportation in the first place lol


second this will probably go threw cause in va the dems and gop are exactly the same.

every day is opposite day in Virginia.

 

[WarMacheen]

Say want you want about WV, but I'm glad I moved just across the state line to get out of VA.

 

[jamesinclair]

"So the single mom who rides the subway"

you say that as if VA has any sort of public transportation in the first place lol

Uh, ever heard of metro.one of the largest subway systems in the us?

Virginia beach also has light rail

 

[double jump]

Uh, ever heard of metro.one of the largest subway systems in the us?

Virginia beach also has light rail

outside of the few major metropolitan areas we have, public transport is still a joke.

 

[jamesinclair]

outside of the few major metropolitan areas we have, public transport is still a joke.

So what you're saying is, aside from where all the tax paying people are, there's no transit.

Funny how that works.


Also this policy gives anyone driving through the state and using the roads a free ride

 

[andycapps]

Get rid of the gas tax.

Convert more highways to tollways.

Sounded preposterous when I first read this, but then I realized it's not a bad idea. Keep the fees low and give everyone EZ Passes.

 

[genjiZERO]

"So the single mom who rides the subway"

you say that as if VA has any sort of public transportation in the first place lol


second this will probably go threw cause in va the dems and gop are exactly the same.

Maybe at the local level, but there are major differences at the state level. Are you trying to tell me Kaine and Mcdonnell are the same? I'm optimistic that this will receive enough negative press and not go through. Let's hope I don't eat crow.

Uh, ever heard of metro.one of the largest subway systems in the us?

Virginia beach also has light rail

You mean the DC Metro? It's almost entirely in DC. In Virginia it doesn't go any further than Vienna. Also, "VA Beach" light rail (which is actually in Norfolk) does't even go to the beach!!

Sounded preposterous when I first read this, but then I realized it's not a bad idea. Keep the fees low and give everyone EZ Passes.

No, it's horribly regressive.

 

[BertramCooper]

No, it's horribly regressive.

If you keep tolls as high as they are now under an expanded tollway system, then yeah, probably.

But if you lower tolls across the board under an expanded system, I don't see how it would be any more regressive than the gas tax currently is.

The obvious problem would be that you can't toll rural roads and city streets, and both would probably receive more traffic to avoid tolls.

 

[Enron]

As usual with threads of this type, the OP is horribly misleading.

From the OPs own link, the bill is not to subsidize "gas guzzlers". In fact, no mpg-defined class of automobile is singled out for subsidy. What the bill does is eliminates the state tax on gasoline to lower the price at the pump and pays for it by -

1. Increasing registration fees on ALL vehicles and trailers (including the OP's "gas guzzlers") to pay for Mass Transit/Rail programs
2. Raises the state sales tax, extra revenue designated for state Transportation funding
3. Requiring 'remote sellers' (im assuming this means amazon and the like) to collect sales tax for transactions in Va, designated for state Transportation funding
4. Doubles license fee for EVs and Hybrids, no mention of where that money goes.

EVs, hybrids, and ICE vehicles all see their registration fees rise

The disconnect between the OP's description of the bill and the actual CONTENT of the bill can only be interpreted as an attempt to willfully mislead.

As for whether or not this legislation is actually wise, It probably isn't. I understand why - the average joe gets mad about prices at the pump and tend to blame their elected officials for not doing something about it - but this seems like its just shifting the tax from gas to sales tax - which is another thing that the average joe gets pissed off about.

 

[genjiZERO]

If you keep tolls as high as they are now under an expanded tollway system, then yeah, probably.

But if you lower tolls across the board under an expanded system, I don't see how it would be any more regressive than the gas tax currently is.

The obvious problem would be that you can't toll rural roads and city streets, and both would probably receive more traffic to avoid tolls.

Then what's the point? How is the better/fairer/more efficient?

 

[DeathGlobe]

Only gas guzzlers are the tax collectors who come up with this shit.

 

[BertramCooper]

Then what's the point? How is the better/fairer/more efficient?

Because it would probably be somewhat better than the current gas tax-reliant system at estimating and taxing for the use of roads, assuming we continue to rely less on gasoline to power our vehicles in the future.

The current gas tax system is clearly not sustainable in the long-term, even if gasoline-powered vehicles are here for the long haul. Vehicles will continue to become more fuel efficient, and tax revenues from gas sales will continue to fall. A new solution needs to be found.

 

[Mael]

THEY ARE PUNISHING YOU FOR BEING EFFICIENT,

It's the GOP alright.

 

[genjiZERO]

Because it would probably be somewhat better than the current gas tax-reliant system at estimating and taxing for the use of roads, assuming we continue to rely less on gasoline to power our vehicles in the future.

The current gas tax system is clearly not sustainable in the long-term, even if gasoline-powered vehicles are here for the long haul. Vehicles will continue to become more fuel efficient, and tax revenues from gas sales will continue to fall. A new solution needs to be found.

[I didn't read you post properly for this section!] But a toll systems harms hybrid and electric users. They pay less because they use less gas, and aren't being taxed at the pump. A toll system would would increase their tax burden because the toll would be applied to all car. Part of the incentive of buying an alternate fuel car - and weening people of gas - is that your tax liability is lower...

er.. on rereading.

but what about the costs associated with setting up a system? Why not just increase income taxes?

 

[BertramCooper]

But a toll systems harms hybrid and electric users. They pay less because they use less gas, and aren't being taxed at the pump. A toll system would would increase their tax burden because the toll would be applied to all car. Part of the incentive of buying an alternate fuel car - and weening people of gas - is that your tax liability is lower...

Just to be clear: I'm strongly against these efforts to raise registration taxes on electric cars. They're almost insignificant in number right now, so it's stupid to claim that tax revenues are suffering because of them. These measures are obviously another GOP assault on any sort of "green," Obama-backed technology.

But it's an issue that's going to need to be seriously addressed at some point in the future.

 

[Enron]

THEY ARE PUNISHING YOU FOR BEING EFFICIENT

No - hybrids use far less gas (therefore pay less tax for the use of the roads) and EVs obviously don't use any gas (therefore pay NO fuel tax for the use of the roads). This bit of the bill is a money-grab on vehicles that have equal usage of state roadways but do not share the tax burden equally. It's no more a "punishment" than any other tax you pay.

 

[AlexMogil]

All my right wing friends on facebook will surely wag their fingers at this socialist practice

 

[wenis]

But without gas you won't have fuck awesome buggys.

It's alright, I prefer that people will need to kill to drive their buggies. Maybe then at least the best and worthy drivers will still be on the road. Not a bunch of idiot maniacs or damned fools.


Bring on the wasteland!

 

[massoluk]

What? They want people who don't drive to subsidize gas guzzler? Wut?

 

[Enron]

What? They want people who don't drive to subsidize gas guzzler? Wut?

Read the article. Not just the OP's ridiculously inflammatory headline and post. Nobody is being subsidized - all vehicles that use the roadways are having their fees increased in some capacity.

 

[tarheel91]

No - hybrids use far less gas (therefore pay less tax for the use of the roads) and EVs obviously don't use any gas (therefore pay NO fuel tax for the use of the roads). This bit of the bill is a money-grab on vehicles that have equal usage of state roadways but do not share the tax burden equally. It's no more a "punishment" than any other tax you pay.

If you want to look at it based on "usage of state roadways" we should assign a toll based on miles traveled and axle weight^4, since that's what correlates with road damage. The damage passenger cars do to roads is miniscule compared to trucking.

 

[Enron]

If you want to look at it based on "usage of state roadways" we should assign a toll based on miles traveled and axle weight^4, since that's what correlates with road damage. The damage passenger cars do to roads is miniscule compared to trucking.

Well, i'm not arguing for it - But that's part of the rationale behind it regarding EVs.

I have no idea if commercial trucks are already taxed more heavily or not.