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[PanopticBlue]

Well since Sega has decided that they can release Model 2 arcade ports under the Sega Ages banner, hopefully they have it in their hearts to give us Model 3 stuff as well. I want Daytona 2 and Super Gt. With Driving Force Pro support.

But first. How about finally giving us ARCADE PERFECT Daytona, Sega Rally, and Sega Touring car. With Driving Force Pro support. While they're at it how about maybe Indy 500, Fighting Vipers and Gunblade NY. Definitely Gunblade NY.

At the bare minimum, at least an (hopefully) arcade perfect VF2 is a start.

 

[White Man]

HOLY SHIT. I forgot VF2 looked that great. I'm so used to the Saturn version that I had forgotten what the real deal looked like. It's like the whole allegory of the cave type of thing, or like switching from light beer to the good stuff. All hail old-skool Sega!

 

[doncale]

VF Remix... ok wasn't that ported from the Saturn to the arcade Titan ST-V ?

and VF Kids, that was Titan ST-V ported to Saturn, so that counts, I forgot about that.

 

[FortNinety]

They seem... I dunno... a bit off.

 

[DCharlie]

"PS2 VF4E was around ~50% of the arcade"

... 50%? That's a bit harsh!

 

[NotMSRP]

What's imperfect about PS2 VF4?

 

[Oichi]

Only thing imperfect about VF4 PS2 are the graphics, which are really bad compared to the arcade version... 50% is a little harsh though. I'd say it's more like a 70% - 75% accurate version

 

[dorikyasu]

VF2 & SF2 hitting consoles again... What year is this again?
That said, I'll be buying this on release date.

 

[cvxfreak]

If the price is right I'll grab this then. I enjoyed VF2 on Saturn (it was one of the three free games I got with the system).

 

[EAJAPAN]

This will be my second Sega Ages purchase. Virtua Racing, VF2. Daytona and Sega Rally next? Please please please please etc

 

[Lazy8s]

dark10x:

VF4E PS2 was certainly much closer to the arcade than Saturn VF2 ever was, though...

Technically, they were both off to a similar degree. The difference is that AM2's greater experience, and the law of diminishing returns, by the time they made VF4 Evo was better at hiding differences with smart modeling and visual design. Check out the piece on the VF4 conversion in a back issue of the Japanese industry magazine, CG World.

 

[doncale]

on PS3, I expect an arcade-exact port of VF5. cause no way is ImgTech & Sega going to be able to come up with a NAOMI 3 board in 2004 that rivals PS3 of 2005-06 ^__^

 

[Sho Nuff]

They seem... I dunno... a bit off.

Don't make me go home and take the exact same shots off my Model 2, man.

 

[DCharlie]

"on PS3, I expect an arcade-exact port of VF5. cause no way is ImgTech & Sega going to be able to come up with a NAOMI 3 board in 2004 that rivals PS3 of 2005-06 ^__^"

why not? Sony are theoretically bound by a circa $300 price tag - Sega and ImgTech don't have that boundry. Further more, noone actually knows what the PS3 is capable of yet.

 

[FriScho]

that reminds me i was at the movies once in the arcade in the lobby playing virtua cop 2. and as my game ended and i was putting the gun up a cop walked by, i turned to him and said "i just played virtua cop, and man, i have a lot of respect for what you do"

he laughed

 

[Neutron Night]

Is this actually going to be the real Model 2 game? Those arcade machines ran at less than 640 x 480, if it's full-res it won't be accurate. I dunno, I remember being obsessed with VF2 in the arcades back in 1995, the PS2 certainly SHOULD be able to do an exact port. The Dreamcast should have been able to do it actually. Of course, it should have been able to do VF3 as well. Let's pass on the shitty coding this time.

 

[Sho Nuff]

Is this actually going to be the real Model 2 game? Those arcade machines ran at less than 640 x 480, if it's full-res it won't be accurate. I dunno, I remember being obsessed with VF2 in the arcades back in 1995, the PS2 certainly SHOULD be able to do an exact port. The Dreamcast should have been able to do it actually. Of course, it should have been able to do VF3 as well. Let's pass on the shitty coding this time.

Model 2 runs in some weirdo medium res, I actually had to reach into the guts of my arcade cab and dork with the monitor sync rate to get it to display right. These screenshots look pretty close though...

 

[Neutron Night]

I know those Model games are much lower resolution than people seem to remember, a few years back I was playing Star Wars Trilogy and everything looked awesome EXCEPT for the frightningly low resolution. It really brought everything down. If it weren't for that, it could have compared to anything on today's consoles. It was Model 3 Step 2 so it couldn't have been more than 1.5 million polys per second. Modern games claim to be using 10 times as many polys and don't look as good, and can barely maintain 30fps while Model 3 was always 60fps.

 

[Lazy8s]

Geometry's only a part of it all. Quality rendering of effects helps Model series games stay comparable, a nice approach carried over with DC.

 

[Shinobi]

Drinky Crow:

Definitely, since the PS2 is still in need of one of those after VF4 had to be stripped of half the geometry on the characters, detail from the backgrounds, and had to take heavy reductions in lighting, IQ, and texturing from the arcade original.

It was still the closest VF port made...the same ballpark as DC VF3, and a thousand years closer as Saturn VF2 (as sick as it looked for a home game at the time, it didn't come anywhere close to the arcade version).

That said, they should be porting the Model 2 games to PSP...throwing it on PS2 just seems like a waste to me. I'll still get it though.

that kicks ass! and am2 are doing it themselves! rather than delegating it to starving but precocious indonesian children, forced to code at gunpoint! as most sega ages games are!

Why don't they just make a version of it in VF4 : Final Tuned like they did in Evo for VF1?

Agreed...hell I thought it should've been included in Evo, fuck VF1.

 

[Shinobi]

dark10x:

Technically, they were both off to a similar degree. The difference is that AM2's greater experience, and the law of diminishing returns, by the time they made VF4 Evo was better at hiding differences with smart modeling and visual design. Check out the piece on the VF4 conversion in a back issue of the Japanese industry magazine, CG World.

The difference is that the PS2 has similiar specs to Naomi 2, while the Saturn was a piece of shit compared to Model 2 (which is no disgrace, PSX and N64 couldn't hold a candle to Model 2 either).

 

[nitewulf]

man, since they are releasing model 2....could that mean model 3 stuff will be coming in the future, finally...super gt? also perfect ports of manx tt...and i always wanted gunblade ny.

 

[doncale]

there is no way PS2 could handle Model 3 ports wiithout sacrifices to texture and image quality..... sure PS2 can do 10x the polys of Model 3 without breaking a sweat but graphics quality would suck. save Model 3 ports for PS3, or Xbox/XBox2 or GameCube/Revolution

 

[Argyle]

Sheesh. Now they release this after I manage to get my paws on a VF2 board

BTW gang - the lighting in the arcade version isn't anything special. Game still overall looks nice considering its age though...

 

[Neutron Night]

That said, they should be porting the Model 2 games to PSP...throwing it on PS2 just seems like a waste to me.

What the hell is that supposed to mean??!?

 

[doncale]

PS2 VF4 Evo is closer to NAOMI 2 VF4 Evo, than Saturn VF2 is to Model 2 VF2.

Shinobi is right.

hell, even plain VF4 on PS2 is closer to plain VF4 on NAOMI 2 than Saturn VF2 is to Model 2 VF2.

PS2 is a polygon machine like NAOMI 2. unlike Saturn compared to Model 2.


NAOMI 2 is a souped up Ferrari, PS2 is a stripped down Ferrari

Model 2 is a Corvette, Saturn is a Chevy Cavolier

 

[Shinobi]

What the hell is that supposed to mean??!?

It means that they should be porting these Model 2/3 games to PSP, as porting them to PS2 seems like a waste to me. I'm already on record in saying that I have little interest in the portables at the moment, but that Model 2 and/or 3 ports to PSP would make it a must buy of epic proportions.

And Doncale's comparisons are on point...Saturn VF2 only looks as good as it does due to a ton of cheating (the backgrounds were parallax, and I think even the floor might've been nothing but a Mode 7 trick). Which is fair game mind you...every system gives programmers ways to cheat to make things look better then they should.

The arcade version of VF2 was a polygon pushing monster at the time, with a level of 3D background detail that bordered on the ridiculous (the bridge being the best example). It was a technological marvel, even more so then Daytona since it employed the first real time character models that looked humanstic. There really wasn't a home equivalent until VF3 hit the DC.

 

[cvxfreak]

It means that they should be porting these Model 2/3 games to PSP, as porting them to PS2 seems like a waste to me. I'm already on record in saying that I have little interest in the portables at the moment, but that Model 2 and/or 3 ports to PSP would make it a must buy of epic proportions.

And Doncale's comparisons are on point...Saturn VF2 only looks as good as it does due to a ton of cheating (the backgrounds were parallax, and I think even the floor might've been nothing but a Mode 7 trick). Which is fair game mind you...every system gives programmers ways to cheat to make things look better then they should.

The arcade version of VF2 was a polygon pushing monster at the time, with a level of 3D background detail that bordered on the ridiculous (the bridge being the best example). It was a technological marvel, even more so then Daytona since it employed the first real time character models that looked humanstic. There really wasn't a home equivalent until VF3 hit the DC.

Psst... he hates handhelds with a passion.

 

[MAZYORA]

dark10x:

Technically, they were both off to a similar degree. The difference is that AM2's greater experience, and the law of diminishing returns, by the time they made VF4 Evo was better at hiding differences with smart modeling and visual design. Check out the piece on the VF4 conversion in a back issue of the Japanese industry magazine, CG World.

Is there any way you could post that article, please!!!!!!!!!

 

[MAZYORA]

"Now who is copying, bitch".

First of all, AM2 already released virtua fighter 1 with vf4 evo! Secondly, Am2 is actuallly porting the Model 2 version unlike Itabukkake and team ninja. Team Ninja is too lazy to port the model 2 version of DOA, so they say they're porting the saturn one because "it had better motion capturing than the model 2 version" or some poor excuse like that.

 

[nitewulf]

well heres the deal for me, vf2 is sorta redundant because of vf4. but we never got a perfect daytona port, or perfect model 3 stuff like daytona 2, super gt, manx tt. so porting these makes sense to me. as for psp, actually they probably should port both to ps2 and psps and make them budget...that way i think they'd have fantastic chance of selling well.
shinobi is on point that these arcade games would be a perfect match for quick portable gaming.

 

[Sho Nuff]

First of all, AM2 already released virtua fighter 1 with vf4 evo! Secondly, Am2 is actuallly porting the Model 2 version unlike Itabukkake and team ninja. Team Ninja is too lazy to port the model 2 version of DOA, so they say they're porting the saturn one because "it had better motion capturing than the model 2 version" or some poor excuse like that.

No. Itagaki said that he was only happy with the Saturn version, as it plays quite differently and was tuned significantly from the arcade version. I actually own DOA arcade AND Saturn and I have found this to be true.

 

[Lazy8s]

Regarding the VF4 home translation versus the VF2 home translation:

Polygon countwise, both conversions took similarly proportional hits. Both home versions also fell short of the quality of effects their arcade counterparts used, though in different ways.

The PS2 conversion lost a lot of the lighting. The specular effect on the characters also had to be hacked pretty bad. The PS2 rendition doesn't render with the properties that PowerVR and the arcade do: non-interlaced output, higher average z-buffer precision, better image color depth, less texture compression, higher texture resolution and color integrity, etc. The PS2 does actually show some improvement for the skinning of joints.

Shortcomings in the Saturn example, however, were visually pronounced since it lacked Model 2's higher standard for 3D with perspective correct texturing and z-buffered polygons (though, it compensated admirably with VDP2 perspective correct rings.) The Saturn did improve on some things too, though, with quite a bit higher image resolution and more color range in some texturing. And the Saturn matched the brightly flat look of the arcade's lighting very nicely.

MAZYORA:

Is there any way you could post that article, please!!!!!!!!!

Don't have it on hand. Basically, AM2 disclosed how the character models had to be reduced by about half their polygon count, resulting in a challenge for the modeling. This also leads to less tesselation for the lighting effect, too.

 

[MAZYORA]

No. Itagaki said that he was only happy with the Saturn version, as it plays quite differently and was tuned significantly from the arcade version. I actually own DOA arcade AND Saturn and I have found this to be true.

If Itabukkake is the graphic whore he claims to be, he would've ported the model 2 version, not the saturn one. DOA1 Saturn compared to DOA1 Model 2 is the same as VF2 Saturn compared to VF2 Model 2, the model 2 version is wayyyyyy better graphically. Fact is, Team Ninja was too lazy to port the Model 2 version.

 

[ourumov]

VF4 PS2 main problem is the dramatic hit that texture took on the environmnent. Sometimes they are really low-res.
As some said, the polys were tuned down but an excellent artistic direction hides it. Of course the lightning it's not the same but I still think they did a nice job.

 

[The Faceless Master]

If Itabukkake is the graphic whore he claims to be, he would've ported the model 2 version, not the saturn one. DOA1 Saturn compared to DOA1 Model 2 is the same as VF2 Saturn compared to VF2 Model 2, the model 2 version is wayyyyyy better graphically. Fact is, Team Ninja was too lazy to port the Model 2 version.

so you're saying the saturn version is easier to port? that makes no sense, saturn is way harder to program for... and porting either version to a system as powerful as xbox is a trivial matter when you have the source! the main point is, the saturn version is more complete than the arcade version... bah, what i REALLY wish is that they ported DOA++ since that was never on a console...

 

[Shinobi]

Psst... he hates handhelds with a passion.

Haha...I don't care about them either (save for Nomad), but throw some Model 2 and 3 games on PSP and that would change very quickly.

Regarding the VF4 home translation versus the VF2 home translation:

Polygon countwise, both conversions took similarly proportional hits. Both home versions also fell short of the quality of effects their arcade counterparts used, though in different ways.

You're out of your fucking mind. If Saturn VF2 was pushing anymore then 60,000 polys per second, it was a miracle. That's 1/5th of Model 2's output. For PS2 VF4 to be similiar, it'd have to be pushing 3 million polys max. And I doubt the number was that small.

Specs be damned though, I just use my eyes. Does PS2 VF4 look different to the arcade version? No doubt. But the differences between the arcade and Saturn versions of VF2 are so much more pronounced it isn't even funny. The fact that there isn't a single 3D element in Saturn VF2's backgrounds where everything in the foreground for the arcade version was 3D, coupled with the total lack of lighting, makes it look flat as a pancake in comparison. Same goes for Sega Rally as well.

 

[Shompola]

Maybe they are porting the PC version of VF2. J/K

 

[dark10x]

Specs be damned though, I just use my eyes. Does PS2 VF4 look different to the arcade version? No doubt. But the differences between the arcade and Saturn versions of VF2 are so much more pronounced it isn't even funny. The fact that there isn't a single 3D element in Saturn VF2's backgrounds where everything in the foreground for the arcade version was 3D, coupled with the total lack of lighting, makes it look flat as a pancake in comparison. Same goes for Sega Rally as well.

Yep. When you get right down to it, VF4E on PS2 really did look very similar to the arcade version. I still think they could have gone a bit further with it, though. They ditched field rendering on Evolution so they probably could have supported progressive scan. I also think they should have rendered things a bit differently. The type of lighting found in the Naomi 2 version was too much for the PS2 to handle, but they could have modified the way the lighting looks and pulled off something different looking.

VF4 certainly looks better, but I think Tekken Tag on PS2 certainly demonstrates a few effects that could have looked nice...

I would have liked to have seen some highlights such as those found on the floor. Perhaps use some intense lighting effects for sunlight or something. For example, imagine Akira's dojo. Have a blooming sun light effect in the distance shining into the dojo and use those highlights on the wooden floor to give it a different texture. Or even modify the lighting in order to look similar to that first TTT shot I posted. That hazy morning glow would look nice.

What about Jacky's stage? They could have really made a flashy looking place with intense neon signs for the original stage or sun drenched cityscape for the evolution version. They could also have used a soft depth of field effect for the distant city. Or Lau's stage with the rain. This might be pushing it, but PS2 can handle a lot of particles very well and changing the rain effect to resemble a lighter version of what MGS2 was tossing around on the tanker.

Perhaps many people would frown on the changes, but I think it would have been quite interesting to see AM2 take a different approach to rendering the stages.

 

[Lord Error]

there is no way PS2 could handle Model 3 ports wiithout sacrifices to texture and image quality..... sure PS2 can do 10x the polys of Model 3 without breaking a sweat but graphics quality would suck.

God, not this Model 3 idolizing crap again. Please stop.

Best looking games on Model 3 (like Super GT) look like pieces of poo when put against stuff like Burnout 3 on PS2.

 

[Izzy]

God, not this Model 3 idolizing crap again. Please stop.

Best looking games on Model 3 (like Super GT) look like pieces of poo when put against stuff like Burnout 3 on PS2.

Looking through the eyes of the average gamer, yes. Looking through the eyes of an old Sega fanboy, hell no.

 

[dark10x]

God, not this Model 3 idolizing crap again. Please stop.

Best looking games on Model 3 (like Super GT) look like pieces of poo when put against stuff like Burnout 3 on PS2.

Yes indeed. I really do think people have simply forgotten what those Model 3 games look like. We still have some Super GT machines around here, and they don't compare to the top tier PS2 racers at all.

 

[binary]

this looks like the best home version of vf2 yet! nice! i've always wanted an arcade perfect version of vf2, or something close to it, the sega saturn version just didn't do it for me. the gameplay was mostly there, but the graphics were far from perfect.

 

[RuGalz]

They probably should tune down texture filtering a bit and sharpen the image a bit to match older hardware better.

 

[PanopticBlue]

Yes indeed. I really do think people have simply forgotten what those Model 3 games look like. We still have some Super GT machines around here, and they don't compare to the top tier PS2 racers at all.

Actually we haven't. Well at least not me anyway. Those claiming that PS2 is incapable of handling Model 3 simply don't know what they're talking about. So don't go dumping all of us Sega lovers together as idiots that think Model 3 is untouchable by current machines. Some of us just happen to love arcade style racers (specifically for me, Namco and Sega arcade racers). I really want Sega to release these games on PS2, with Driving Force Pro support, and arcade perfect of course. I dunno how the discussion devolved into the Model 3 hate, but just stop it now. Yes, it's been surpassed, but there's no denying that it was an incredible beast for it's time, and absolutely untouchable until Dreamcast (and even then maybe not 100%). There shouldn't be any question that any of the current consoles could handle perfect Model 3 ports. Maybe some different rendering techniques here and there, but dammit I just want these games at home NOW.

 

[dark10x]

Actually we haven't. Well at least not me anyway. Those claiming that PS2 is incapable of handling Model 3 simply don't know what they're talking about. So don't go dumping all of us Sega lovers together as idiots that think Model 3 is untouchable by current machines. Some of us just happen to love arcade style racers (specifically for me, Namco and Sega arcade racers). I really want Sega to release these games on PS2, with Driving Force Pro support, and arcade perfect of course. I dunno how the discussion devolved into the Model 3 hate, but just stop it now. Yes, it's been surpassed, but there's no denying that it was an incredible beast for it's time, and absolutely untouchable until Dreamcast (and even then maybe not 100%). There shouldn't be any question that any of the current consoles could handle perfect Model 3 ports. Maybe some different rendering techniques here and there, but dammit I just want these games at home NOW.

Oh, I love Model 3 hardware and can't deny how incredible it was. I'm simply tired of people still claiming that Model 3 games can't be touched on current consoles...when they have already gone WELL beyond what Model 3 could do.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

PS2 VF4E was around ~50% of the arcade

Wow. I really need to find this game in the arcade, because I'm very impressed w/ the PS2 version. I almost like not being able to compare the two though. One less thing to think about.

Oh, I love Model 3 hardware and can't deny how incredible it was. I'm simply tired of people still claiming that Model 3 games can't be touched on current consoles...when they have already gone WELL beyond what Model 3 could do.

Being locked @ 60fps puts model 3 well above current hardware by default...IMO.

 

[dark10x]

Wow. I really need to find this game in the arcade, because I'm very impressed w/ the PS2 version. I almost like not being able to compare the two though. One less thing to think about.

50% is really pushing it...

Reno is much closer in his estimation of about 75% of the arcade game. The Naomi 2 version has better image quality (without a doubt), richer colors, and better textures (though, they still aren't that great in the backgrounds). It is quite beautiful looking on a progressive scan display...

Being locked @ 60fps puts model 3 well above current hardware by default...IMO.

That wasn't really just the hardware, though. The framerate was a result of the programmers. How many games were released on Model 3 in comparison to PS2? Those M3 games were intended to be arcade title and that level of polish was demanded. There are many better looking games on PS2 that run at a perfect 60 fps. The games that do not are the result of poor coding (or even a design choice). The PS2 software library is very broad and covers far more genres than Model 3 arcade games ever could. It isn't fair to compare them in that regard...

The fact is, PS2 (and the other systems, obviously), can display superior visuals at 60 fps in comparison to Model 3. Model 3 hardware is not well above current console hardware, but its developers designed games for a different purpose. How many System 12 games are 60 fps? Virtually all of them, IIRC. Does that mean it is better than current hardware? Hell no!

 

[Sho Nuff]

If Itabukkake is the graphic whore he claims to be, he would've ported the model 2 version, not the saturn one. DOA1 Saturn compared to DOA1 Model 2 is the same as VF2 Saturn compared to VF2 Model 2, the model 2 version is wayyyyyy better graphically. Fact is, Team Ninja was too lazy to port the Model 2 version.

Because we all know how lazy Team Ninja is as a whole.

 

[Shompola]

MAZYORA, please just shut up geez.