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[Amir0x]

:lol @ you replying to every statement I make with a contrary message

Well whenever you participate in a thread, it just so happens that you make the most offensively incorrect statement and so it's easiest to contradict.

It's the base comparison of 60fps vs 60fps, though. If you fail to adapt for online, then you fail at playing the game.

You'd be failing at an entirely different game than Virtua Fighter, though. Which is the point!

 

[mollipen]

Yay, crap online games in favour of good ofline games.

If that is my only choice, then yes. An average fighting game that I can play online against competition is 100x more enjoyable then a good fighting game that isn't online and sits collecting dust because the only thing I can do with it is play single player mode.

I'd rather play KoF than a lot of other fighting games because I love the series, but there is only so much single player that I can stand. Offline only fighters are great if you have a wide pool of people around you that enjoy the game. If you don't, doesn't matter how good the game is if you have nobody to play against.

 

[The Faceless Master]

:lol @ you using DOA4 online to prove that VFNext is viable.

Two entirely different games, only one of which is actually any good, and which requires absolutely no lag to remain faithful to the series gameplay.

THAT SAID, VF should still have an online mode. As people have noted, they don't have hardcore friends. I don't either, truthfully. I have to seek them out if I want to play at my level. I wouldn't play VF online - it would rape the gameplay and defeat the reason I play VF in the first place - but it should definitely be an option for those who are willing to deal with this fact.

i've already pointed out that playing DOA online is not the same as playing DOA offline, so i assume you mean that's the good game as there's no actual way a comparison can be made with the other game in online vs offline as it's offline only.

 

[shoplifter]

That's not a good argument, imo. It's the consumers money. If they like a product, but want something included... and it never happens, they have the right to complain AND take their money elsewhere.

Which is fine, but it would appear that the reasoning isn't that they didn't bother trying, its that they didn't like the results, and rather than have a sub-par experience opted to not include it.

It's as if everyone is saying "Go ahead and give me the Ribeye w/dogshit on the side! I don't care if the chef decided that he didn't want to be serving dogshit in his restaurant, it's something extra for me to eat!"

 

[The Faceless Master]

Yeah that's what I don't get. You'd think VF fans would love for new people to discover the series.

And let's quit the exagerations. Not being able to punish a move properly is not going to OMG COMPLETELY RUIN the game. You could still learn the basics of the gameplay. Lag is not going to turn VF into Rise of the Robots.

actually, most of the VF players i know in north america don't want anyone else to play VF, so i completely understand the reactions of people like Srider and Hajiki (true story)

 

[Fishie flop oog]

SEGA isn't going to care if you don't buy it for a console or not. This is simpily because -- the arcade game alone would be racking in huge profits.

Exactly, and this bears repeating.
VF franchise will continue to rake in money for Sega even if from one day to the next nobody would play it.
VF4 was Sega´s vehicle to get the vast majority of Japanese arcades o adopt sega´s .net network.
Whenever someone plays Tekken 5, Sega takes its cut.
Only one company with one game had the power to set something like that up and the company was Sega with VF4, EVERYONE in Japan is paying Sega for the use of the network.
Arcades pay to get connected, players pay for their vf, guilty gear, tekken etcetera accounts and arcade game manufacturers pay to get their games on Sega´s all.net.

 

[Matlock]

Well whenever you participate in a thread, it just so happens that you make the most offensively incorrect statement and so it's easiest to contradict.



You'd be failing at an entirely different game than Virtua Fighter, though. Which is the point!

Just stop trying. You come in and bust on me, but also completely ignore reason--read Faceless Master, Anyaka, Lakeearth's posts. They make sense. And you know why? Because they're telling it as it is, and not blowing shit out of their ass to try to back up that online would "ruin" Virtua Fighter.

 

[Amir0x]

i've already pointed out that playing DOA online is not the same as playing DOA offline, so i assume you mean that's the good game as there's no actual way a comparison can be made with the other game in online vs offline as it's offline only.

Not a good point. DOA's gameplay translates more easily into online due to the various nuances. It's still never 100% faithful, but it's going to be a thousand times more faithful than trying to adapt VF to the online sector. That's not to say VF shouldn't have an online mode - it should - but the complaint from the dev team does not surprise me. VF is inherently an offline game due to the twitch responses that require 1/60th of a second, and bringing it online would just destroy the gameplay.

DOA can adapt without being destroyed (which is good or bad, depending on your viewpoint).

So comparing gameplay of both respective offline titles, it's quite easy to extract which would actually work online, and which wouldn't. And it seems SEGA agrees, since they had tests before to see if it would work.

And you know why? Because they're telling it as it is, and not blowing shit out of their ass to try to back up that online would "ruin" Virtua Fighter.

Online would just rape the Virtua Fighter gameplay. That's a fact, indisputable. Whatever you'd be playing online would not be a Virtua Fighter. We'd call this hypothetical mode "Not Virtua Fighter." That's different from saying it shouldn't have an online mode. But no, the TRUTH MUST BE HEARD. Trust me, Matlock, nobody cares. VF is what it is. Awesome, best fighter ever, and it will remain that way with or without online.

 

[Srider]

Maybe these people actually like VF and are disappointed it's going this direction?

I don't know, I'm certainly not whining. I know that provided it stays the course, Virtua Fighter V will be the greatest fighting game ever once again. But I still think they should include the online mode. I don't have to play it so it doesn't bother me if they do, ya know?

It doesn't bother me if they do put it in either, but it's people who whine that they won't buy it if there's no online that make it the way it's going today. If the western market was big on VF, then I can see why Sega would try hard to put in online play. The fact stands that VF just doesn't do well at all in the west is the motivation behind catering to the true market of VF and not putting in online play.

People should realize that if they are not going to buy the game just because it's not online, that gives them the more reason to believe the game is dead in the US.

 

[Tain]

Wait, where were you the last time the US vf players flew to Japan to play VF? oh I guess you aren't hardcord enough...

Now you see why vf player look like elitists, they are not, they are just obsessed enough about the game to drive, to fly, to spend thousands just to play this game even though they are completely abandoned by Sega of Japan. So yeah, I do think you just want to look hardcore, because everything that you wouldn't do, the hardcore VF players do every day.

I have no clue how me not flying to Japan to play a goddamn videogame is equivalent to me wanting to look hardcore.

I really have no clue what you're trying to say. Are you saying it's impossible to genuinely enjoy VF unless you play in high-level Japanese tournaments? Anybody who doesn't do this wants to look hardcore, and they couldn't possibly enjoy the game without caring about how it's looked at by the media?

The last thing in the world I want to do is look like a "hardcore gamer".

I think that's really what Fishie and I are saying, except we simply accepted the fact that online won't happen and know that no matter how much people whine, it won't change.

I understand that AM2 is too stubborn to ever add online mode. Christ, I'll probably still buy VF5 at some point. That doesn't mean that anybody who avoids the game due to the lack of online play is an idiot, though. They know that the game won't do anything for them, and they won't buy it.

You people complaining that it's not there would be the first ones bitching if it were and it didn't live up to your expectations.

Nah.

 

[Fishie flop oog]

Actually, I thought new card based stuff and medal games (Dragon Chronicles, Key of Avalon, Mushi King, Dragon Treasure, Quest of D, Druaga Online, MJ-net, World Club Champion Football Series, etc) were the big new arcade moneymakers? I can't imagine Soul Calibur or Tekken are much of a draw though, they've always been bigger at home it seemed.

They are popular yes but they are also more expensive and take the place of over a dozen regular sit down fighting machines so in pure value they cant compete with the fighting games.
Space comes at a premium.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Not a good point. DOA's gameplay translates more easily into online due to the various nuances. It's still never 100% faithful, but it's going to be a thousand times more faithful than trying to adapt VF to the online sector. That's not to say VF shouldn't have an online mode - it should - but the complaint from the dev team does not surprise me. VF is inherently an offline game due to the twitch responses that require 1/60th of a second, and bringing it online would just destroy the gameplay.

DOA can adapt without being destroyed (which is good or bad, depending on your viewpoint).

So comparing gameplay of both respective offline titles, it's quite easy to extract which would actually work online, and which wouldn't. And it seems SEGA agrees, since they had tests before to see if it would work.

what are the "various nuances" that you speak of?

please, let's hear them...

 

[Shompola]

I will buy it, I might not buy it on first day though.. Last fighter I bought for fullprice was Soul Calibur on DC.

 

[snatches]

Press release from 2002:

SAN FRANCISCO - (April 2, 2002) - SEGA® of America today announced that its critically acclaimed fighting game, "Virtua Fighter(tm) 4" for the PlayStation®2 computer entertainment system, was the #1 selling title on the platform during its first week of sales according to independent retail data from NPD TRSTS (week ending 3/23). With lightning-fast gameplay action, breathtaking graphics and all new modes and features, "Virtua Fighter 4," was recently named the "Best Fighting Game Ever Made," by gaming enthusiast publication Official U.S. PlayStation Magazine.

YEAH

SEGA DOESN'T CARE ABOUT NA AND EUROPE SALES/BLOWITOUTYOURASS

 

[Fishie flop oog]

actually, most of the VF players i know in north america don't want anyone else to play VF, so i completely understand the reactions of people like Srider and Hajiki (true story)

Yeah you have a bunch of assholes(like Shou) in the community, guys like Spotlite and stuff however make up for the elitist assholes.
Personally id love nothing more then or the game to become bigger in the west.
I always enjoy it greatly when quality gets recognised by the masses.

 

[Fishie flop oog]

what are the "various nuances" that you speak of?

please, let's hear them...

Hint, check frame data.

 

[Anyanka]

Why does everyone still act like VF is an impossible sell to the west? Didn't VF4/evo combined sell like a million on PS2? It may not do as much business as the arcade market but that's still pretty nice. Putting it online would not kill the arcade market. If the Japanese are SO HARDCORE they'd continue to go. In America where online play would be the biggest draw there isn't an arcade market to kill.

I play T5DR at the arcade like, 4 days a week. Even if it was online I'd still go.


And could we stop hyping up this 1/60 of a second!!!!!!!! thing? Frame advantage is part of every fighter.

 

[Shompola]

Hmm unfortunately VF isnt near as big as Tekken over here atleast. When people visit they allways ask for Tekken but never VF.... And I mention VF but they completely ignore it.

 

[gigamex]

Most bizzare thread ever. I've never seen a group (no-online play evar!) so passionately defend an almost undefendable position. It keeps being repeated over and over and either somebody deflects it or changes the subject. Online is an option that you don't have to use. I think the problem is that the developers don't live in this country. They don't understand the reality that arcades are dead in this country which eliminates most competition.

I respect their game. But here is a case where a developer isn't respecting their audience. If the game was Japan only then I could see it. But if they are bringing it over and expect to draw an American audience which they've always had a tough time doing, it makes no sense to make choices that actually limit the audience.

 

[Srider]

I have no clue how me not flying to Japan to play a goddamn videogame is equivalent to me wanting to look hardcore.

I really have no clue what you're trying to say. Are you saying it's impossible to genuinely enjoy VF unless you play in high-level Japanese tournaments? Anybody who doesn't do this wants to look hardcore, and they couldn't possibly enjoy the game without caring about how it's looked at by the media?

The last thing in the world I want to do is look like a "hardcore gamer".



I understand that AM2 is too stubborn to ever add online mode. Christ, I'll probably still buy VF5 at some point. That doesn't mean that anybody who avoids the game due to the lack of online play is an idiot, though. They know that the game won't do anything for them, and they won't buy it.


Nah.

Believe me, I completely understand your pain if you are also one of the few who loves the series and not living in Japan. The hard thing to swallow is that being in the US put you in a difficult position to be able to enjoy this game the way it's intended to be enjoyed.

It's just funny that no matter what Sega or the fans try to change the state that it is in the US, things get worse and worse here for VF fans. The only way to change their focus is that VF needs to make more money here, and if people are not going to buy it and try to make the series more popular here, we will never see AM2 focusing on the US. That means no chance of an online mode. Cause by what fishie said, why bother? They rake in profit from their existing model in the Japanese arcades. It's entirely true that maybe even if VF5 sold huge in the US on consoles, that thing still won't change; but the one thing that is definite is that if people are not going to buy the game simply cause they can't play online, then the chance of the game ever being online, or even coming out becomes less and less.

 

[shoplifter]

I respect their game. But here is a case where a developer isn't respecting their audience.

Saying that 'the experience of online VF5 wasn't up to our standards, so we're not doing it' isn't respecting your audience?

\/\/ keep in mind that it sold that many copies as a $20 title, not at full price. I have a feeling sales wouldn't be quite so brisk if it had sold for $50, glowing reviews or not.

 

[snatches]

Didn't VF4 sell over a million copies here? Can anyone come up with sales data to support this ridiculous claim that the west ignores this title?

 

[neondriver]

I don't get why there are guys like Fishie, Sryder, etc who get angry when people say they don't buy this if it doesn't include online. :lol
Just don't care for us, Sega doesn't either.

 

[Shompola]

What I dont understand is how they couldnt even getting it to work good enough with fiber optics... Ok interarcade or whatever it is called.
How is the lag on fiber optic if no other traffic is on it? More or less just as good as LAN? How good is that? below 4ms?

 

[shoplifter]

No, because they're not respecting, they're just doing whatever they want. Which is fine, but still not what I would call respecting their audience.

So now lowering your high standards is good...I see. Making miracles happen is what's needed now to not lower your standards AND respect your audience!

 

[Srider]

I don't get why there are guys like Fishie, Sryder, etc who get angry when people say they don't buy this if it doesn't include online. :lol
Just don't care for us, Sega doesn't either.

Because you guys are the reason why everyone else doesn't get to play.

 

[gigamex]

Didn't VF4 sell over a million copies here? Can anyone come up with sales data to support this ridiculous claim that the west ignores this title?

VF 4 did sell well on Ps2. The perception that VF isn't popular comes from a couple different areas. 1.) it's only on the Ps2 unlike say Soul Calibur. 2.) It never was as culturally dominant as say Tekken. Anecdotal evidence is never good to be spouting but I know many people who play SC, Tekken, Street FIghter,hell even MK, etc. The number of people I know who play VF by comparison is lower.

 

[j^aws]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't MS mandate that all X360 games should be online enabled? If there's no online feature for VF5, then this would suggest a PS3 exclusive?

Anyway I agree, they should at least offer a VF5 online option,
call it VF5 Retard Edition or whatever...

OTOH, if they do manage to 'perfect' online play, it could be detrimental to their arcade business but 'crippled' online play could actually encourage offline/ arcade play...

 

[gigamex]

So now lowering your high standards is good...I see. Making miracles happen is what's needed now to not lower your standards AND respect your audience!

What world do you live in? And is the sky blue there?

 

[shoplifter]

^^ i wouldn't know, i haven't been outside in months

What I'm saying is that 'respecting the customer' doesn't mean giving them something that isn't up to your standards. If you can't do something that the customer wants to your standards, you tell them so, which is exactly what AM2 is doing here. They tried, it wasn't good enough, and people apparently can't let that go.

VF 4 did sell well on Ps2. The perception that VF isn't popular comes from a couple different areas. 1.) it's only on the Ps2 unlike say Soul Calibur. 2.) It never was as culturally dominant as say Tekken. Anecdotal evidence is never good to be spouting but I know many people who play SC, Tekken, Street FIghter,hell even MK, etc. The number of people I know who play VF by comparison is lower.

Yeah, the actual % of people who play VF is much smaller. It's not 'flashy' like Tekken or SC, it's something that really needs -serious- play to be appreciated fully, thus it doesn't immediately pull someone in. I can completely respect that someone may not want to put that kind of time in after they've given it a shot.


Hell, I personally bought at least 5 copies of Evolution for friends/family to try to sell them on the game. I'd suspect that other have done the same, given the $20 tag. I think two of them really tried, everyone else played for an hour and put it down, never to play it again because they couldn't be bothered to learn how to play the game.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Hint, check frame data.

no hints, just spell it out...

 

[lexy]

I guess I'm pretty lucky to have a brother who is equally, if not, better than me at VF
All the competition I'll ever need.

 

[Amir0x]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't MS mandate that all X360 games should be online enabled? If there's no online feature for VF5, then this would suggest a PS3 exclusive?

no, because VF5 could still be online enabled without having a specific online mode. Just online features, like uploading scores or leaderboards or something

 

[LakeEarth]

having online play, at least in the USA and Europe, would not only push more people to play the game, but actually push more people to play offline after playing online and learning more about the game than they ever would just playing their button mashing friends...

or at least that's my theory... sega seems to think differently...

No its totally true. No matter what you think, you will never improve yourself in a fighting game playing the AI and a handful of friends over and over. OH you'll THINK you're good, but you'd be wrong.

I guess I'm pretty lucky to have a brother who is equally, if not, better than me at VF
All the competition I'll ever need.

Trust me on this, figint one person, even if he's better than you, will not improve your game by much. Oh its better than the AI, for sure. Just that there are a hundred 'tricks', 'mind games', etc that you've never run into that would open up your look on the game, things you can incorperate into your own style.

 

[snatches]

PS2 VIRTUA FIGHTER 4 SEGA OF AMERICA Mar-02 623,936

Did some hunting, found this in a sonycowboy > 500k thread from September. Of course, this doesn't include VF4 evo sales at all. So surely they came close to a million at least, which is an impressive feat and means big bucks for Sega. So can we stop talking about total bullshit like Sega doesn't care about US sales cuz Japan is all that matters?

 

[Fishie flop oog]

no hints, just spell it out...

c
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Hahahaha, seriously though, the amount of time you have to execute counters, fuzz guarding, actual moves and follow ups is extremely limited.
The window of opportunity frame wise is extremely restricted and often requires complicated inputs to pull off correctly.
More input dta combined with less time to do it in basically.

 

[Srider]

I think anyone who has been to a Japanese arcade on a crowded night would understand why some of us say the things we do.

 

[Fishie flop oog]

no, because VF5 could still be online enabled without having a specific online mode. Just online features, like uploading scores or leaderboards or something

Yah, like VF.net does in Japnese arcades, or Tekken 5 does for that matter.

 

[snatches]

I think anyone who has been to a Japanese arcade on a crowded night would understand why some of us say the things we do.

Money is money and this is further proof that sega does not respect:

1) western gamers

2) shareholders

 

[jett]

I haven't really read the thread, but here's what I guess is happening:

People that never really cared (or played) about VF am cry.

 

[shoplifter]

^^ probably

Money is money and this is further proof that sega does not respect:

1) western gamers

2) shareholders

Again, putting out what they see as an inferior product != disrespecting customers.

 

[j^aws]

no, because VF5 could still be online enabled without having a specific online mode. Just online features, like uploading scores or leaderboards or something

Ah okay, I always thought that MS' online mandate actually meant online 'play'... maybe I misread it or something...

 

[The Faceless Master]

c
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f
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Hahahaha, seriously though, the amount of time you have to execute counters, fuzz guarding, actual moves and follow ups is extremely limited.
The window of opportunity frame wise is extremely restricted and often requires complicated inputs to pull off correctly.
More input dta combined with less time to do it in basically.

yeah, hence terms like "online safe moves"... moves that are not safe offline but due to the 2+ frames of lag that most people don't notice, actually become safe online due to them not being blockable or counterable on reaction even though they are offline... little things like that really change the game, it's like playing a different game almost... but yet most people would still rather play a flawed version of the real game online than play the CPU...

but go ahead and kid yourself into thinking that strict timing only applies to VF

 

[snatches]

Again, putting out what they see as an inferior product != disrespecting customers.

Seriously, read other posts in this thread that have THOUGHT THIS OUT.

They can put out the game with the offline mode exactly as they intended. They can add an online mode for us that want it.

HOW IS THAT PUTTING OUT AN INFERIOR PRODUCT

GETTING MORE FOR YOUR MONEY = GOOD

 

[Srider]

Money is money and this is further proof that sega does not respect:

1) western gamers

2) shareholders

Sega probably makes more money in a few months on arcades along. Evo sold for $20, and I doubt Sega even saw most of that money.

You obviously don't know how hard Sega is trying to push their business. Not only are they trying to revive the arcades in the US, they are also doing this.
http://www.totalvideogames.com/news/SEGA_Yokohama_Amusement_Talks_Premature_9361_0_0.htm

You have no idea how hard they are trying, people simply are not supporting them. Face it, arcades is Sega's business, and they are doing a hell of a job at it.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Sega probably makes more money in a few months on arcades along. Evo sold for $20, and I doubt Sega even saw most of that money.

You obviously don't know how hard Sega is trying to push their business. Not only are they trying to revive the arcades in the US, they are also doing this.
http://www.totalvideogames.com/news/SEGA_Yokohama_Amusement_Talks_Premature_9361_0_0.htm

You have no idea how hard they are trying, people simply are not supporting them. Face it, arcades is Sega's business, and they are doing a hell of a job at it.

why would people support them when they don't give the people what they want?

Spoiler

Shenmue III

 

[shoplifter]

Seriously, read other posts in this thread that have THOUGHT THIS OUT.

They can put out the game with the offline mode exactly as they intended. They can add an online mode for us that want it.

HOW IS THAT PUTTING OUT AN INFERIOR PRODUCT

GETTING MORE FOR YOUR MONEY = GOOD

ITS AN INFERIOR PRODUCT BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT HAPPY WITH IT. HOW FUCKING HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND?

I'd encourage Square to just release FFXII with 8-bit textures, after all, they're not respecting me by delaying it for so long. At least that way, I'll get to play it amirite?

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

 

[gigamex]

^^ probably




Again, putting out what they see as an inferior product != disrespecting customers.

Dude every American online game on the market suffers lag to some degree. Depending on your connection it can be really bad. That doesn't stop us from enjoying it because we are playing it in a manner that would "displease" the developers or hardcore players of the game.

I like how this is presented as only a binary option. Either online is the worst thing ever or its the best thing ever. I'm pretty sure most people realize it's instead on a 10 scale. For you playing that game online probably equates to an enjoyment level of 1. And you are perfectly entitled to that view. For others it might be 3,5,7, or god forbid 10!

Not everybody is going to be a master at the game and demand that level of perfection. You make it sound like Sega is in the business of creating art instead of the actual business of business.

 

[Srider]

why would people support them when they don't give the people what they want?

Spoiler

Shenmue III

Lol, yeah.

But I believe it will come... it will!!

 

[bumpkin]

And then Sega wonders why they've fucking gone down the shitter the past few years.