Support NeoGAF

[nkarafo]

For the sake of this discussion, lets exclude GH1 and 2 since those two were based on cover songs.

What made those games fascinating for me isn't the games themselves. It's the audio files inside those disks. From GH 3 and above, the discs were filled with classic songs, the kind adults today grew up with, in higher quality than normal CDs. Remember the Death Magnetic fiasco? and how the GH3 DLC was the only way to listen to these songs in proper quality?

But wait, there's more. The BEST thing about all the songs isn't the higher audio quality. It's the separate audio channels for the instruments.

In GH3 you had the master recording of the guitar and bass separately from the rest of the audio. GHWT and Rock Band took things further, separating drums and vocals as well. Add to that the ability to adjust the volume of those channels and you could basically mix the masters yourself!

This was an unimaginable benefit for me when i found out. For the first time in my life, i could mix and control the sound of many classic songs, having the master recordings in my reach. I could finally hear the bass in The Justice for All album! I could hear every single detail in the vocals of many of my favorite songs! Basically, this level of control was something i was dreaming about ever since i started listening to music.

But these things are rarely mentioned (if at all). Sometimes i feel like i'm the only one who cared about those features. And it's the reason i'm sad for the genre dying. Because there are so many more classic songs i would like to listen in a way i never did before.

Anyone else on the same boat?

 

[funkystudent]

The most famous case I think was the guitar hero version of metallica's Death Magnetic was the definitive was to listen to it since the retail and iTunes mix was normalised to death and had clipping but the GH version was pristine.


It was great to get rips of individual tracks for so many songs. I am sure the record companies probably hated it but rips of rock band and GH songs have been s god send for remixers and audio nuts

 

[Shinriji]

I could finally hear the bass in The Justice for All album!

...And Justice for Jason was the best end result of GH and RB.

 

[xyzzy]

I love getting access to all those stems, but as an audiophile, I don't prefer whatever lossy codec they used to redbook audio. It's certainly not better than CD sound, all things being equal.

The loudness wars are a bummer, but I'll just listen to music by people who don't limit all the dynamics out of their recordings. Of course, a ton of compression is fundamental to pop music, but hard limiting beyond a certain point isn't something I find pleasant to listen to.

It's sad that people have to settle for remixing from lossy stems.

 

[RedZaraki]

My brother became interested in music and is now a guitarist because of his experience with Guitar Hero 2.

No hyperbole.

 

[Nugg]

I remember the song Rock n Roll Star from Oasis in Rock Band having something like two minutes of never heard before guitar solo at the end, instead of the fade out that is on the album version of the song. That was pretty neat. I'm sure there are other examples.

 

[Carn82]

As a drummer, I use(d) a lot of those tracks-minus-drums to play along with.

 

[nkarafo]

I love getting access to all those stems, but as an audiophile, I don't prefer whatever lossy codec they used to redbook audio. It's certainly not better than CD sound, all things being equal.

I don't know... listening to most songs in my 5.1 system sound significantly better than the CD versions on the same system.

Could it be the Dolby Digital option in the consoles?

I remember the song Rock n Roll Star from Oasis in Rock Band having something like two minutes of never heard before guitar solo at the end, instead of the fade out that is on the album version of the song. That was pretty neat. I'm sure there are other examples.

Yes there are. Pretty much any included song that originally had a fade out is complete in GH/RB.

 

[disappeared]

I never even thought about this at all. That's a good observation and a pretty awesome one too.

 

[The Lamonster]

My brother became interested in music and is now a guitarist because of his experience with Guitar Hero 2.

No hyperbole.

Same with Post Malone.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Shame the RB fad died out. Those games were fun. As for the topic at hand, they definitely shined on a great sound system.

 

[vg260]

For the sake of this discussion, lets exclude GH1 and 2 since those two were based on cover songs.

What made those games fascinating for me isn't the games themselves. It's the audio files inside those disks. From GH 3 and above, the discs were filled with classic songs, the kind adults today grew up with, in higher quality than normal CDs. Remember the Death Magnetic fiasco? and how the GH3 DLC was the only way to listen to these songs in proper quality?

But wait, there's more. The BEST thing about all the songs isn't the higher audio quality. It's the separate audio channels for the instruments.

In GH3 you had the master recording of the guitar and bass separately from the rest of the audio. GHWT and Rock Band took things further, separating drums and vocals as well. Add to that the ability to adjust the volume of those channels and you could basically mix the masters yourself!

This was an unimaginable benefit for me when i found out. For the first time in my life, i could mix and control the sound of many classic songs, having the master recordings in my reach. I could finally hear the bass in The Justice for All album! I could hear every single detail in the vocals of many of my favorite songs! Basically, this level of control was something i was dreaming about ever since i started listening to music.

But these things are rarely mentioned (if at all). Sometimes i feel like i'm the only one who cared about those features. And it's the reason i'm sad for the genre dying. Because there are so many more classic songs i would like to listen in a way i never did before.

Anyone else on the same boat?

The ability to hear the tracks in-game separated by instrument and control (play) them separately is what was absolutely magical about the games to me, and why I hate that Rock Band has been using so many tracks recently that aren't properly separated by instrument. It's why I think the GH Live feature completely misses the point. Just playing along or beat matching with a flat-mixed song is different.

BUT...

IF you're talking about the ability to strip them from the game and manipulate them on their own, then I would argue that's a case of "this is why we can't have nice things" and part of the problem. I think it's why Rock Band is not using separated master tracks as much, and why it's ruining the magic of the game. It very much feels like the studios may be clamping down on people stripping out the tracks, and/or Harmonix not having the money as an indie to secure the costs of the separated masters because the studios aren't willing to let them go for as much when the possibility of them being extracted and distributed exists.

 

[nkarafo]

BUT...

IF you're talking about the ability to strip them from the game and manipulate them on their own, then I would argue that's a case of "this is why we can't have nice things" and part of the problem. I think it's why Rock Band is not using separated master tracks as much, and why it's ruining the magic of the game. It very much feels like the studios may be clamping down on people stripping out the tracks, and/or Harmonix not having the money as an indie to secure the costs of the separated masters because the studios aren't willing to let them go for as much when the possibility of them being extracted and distributed exists.

I guess that makes sense. There's also the artist's vision in the way too. Maybe many artists and bands don't want me to listen to their songs my way. Maybe they want me to hear their own interpretation only.

Welp, it was great while it lasted though, i still got a ton of songs from all these games. Heck, i almost managed to miss the party because initially i was ignoring the games for being "casual party games".

 

[xyzzy]

I don't know... listening to most songs in my 5.1 system sound significantly better than the CD versions on the same system.

Could be the Dolby Digital option in the consoles?

The thing is that you are comparing two completely different mixes. A good remix of a song can breathe new life into it, but I tend to prefer the original mix that was made in the studio at the time the album or song was worked on as the genuine article. I like hearing a different mix to hear new things in a familiar recording. But you can't really compare them. It's apples and oranges.

I think the important thing about these games is that they opened up new avenues for people to enjoy music and learn about this stuff. If you enjoy something, that's great. Audiophiles tend to care more about quality of the sound, more like a "do no harm/less is more" kind of thing. Getting closer to original mastertape sound with less bad choices between it and the listener.

If you enjoy music in 5.1, there are some really good surround mixes available for some albums in even higher quality formats like SACD, DVD-A and Blu-ray. But I'd rather hear an MP3 of something I like than the mastertape of something I don't. So follow your bliss.

 

[nkarafo]

The thing is that you are comparing two completely different mixes. A good remix of a song can breathe new life into it, but I tend to prefer the original mix that was made in the studio at the time the album or song was worked on as the genuine article. I like hearing a different mix to hear new things in a familiar recording. But you can't really compare them. It's apples and oranges.

There's also the case of listening to 4 or 5 different sound files at the same time instead of 1 that includes everything. Even if you listen to them at their original volume, you can still tell the instruments apart clearer if you have a good sound system. Or at least that's how it feels to me. Maybe it's just the bias of knowing this beforehand.

If you enjoy music in 5.1, there are some really good surround mixes available for some albums in even higher quality formats like SACD, DVD-A and Blu-ray. But I'd rather hear an MP3 of something I like than the mastertape of something I don't. So follow your bliss.

Oh, i know. After the revelation of GH/RB games i became obsessed with the whole thing and discovered a lot of stuff like this

 

[Ash735]

The quality was good, sure it's not the greatest but it provided a way for people to try mixing themselves. For peoples information these games used MOGG files, which are just multiple OGG-VORBIS streams, the quality PER STREAM was 64kb/s VBR, so in some cases it was better than CD quality in a way considering that each instrument was getting 64kb/s to use.

Plus it was a good way to get a hold of alternate mixes of songs, for example, 3's & 7's by Queens of the Stone Age, Guitar Hero used an earlier version of the song which had some guitar volume differences and completely different lyrics in the bridge:
https://youtu.be/675KzJYih44

 

[nkarafo]

You can also clearly hear Curt Kobain cough in "Smells like Teen Spirit" during one break

 

[vg260]

I guess that makes sense. There's also the artist's vision in the way too. Maybe many artists and bands don't want me to listen to their songs my way. Maybe they want me to hear their own interpretation only.

Welp, it was great while it lasted though, i still got a ton of songs from all these games. Heck, i almost managed to miss the party because initially i was ignoring the games for being "casual party games".

The genre is still alive, though, but much, much more niche. However, if someone only got the separated tracks online, and never supported it by buying the games and DLC, they weren't doing much to keep it alive, and the effects are still felt by those who still actively play Rock Band as a result.

 

[Patrick Young]

Being able to hear the actual end of some Metallica songs was awesome.

 

[nkarafo]

The genre is still alive, though, but much, much more niche. However, if someone only got the separated tracks online, and never supported it by buying the games and DLC, they weren't doing much to keep it alive, and the effects are still felt by those who still actively play Rock Band as a result.

That would be mostly PC users who don't have a console. PC only got GH3 and GHWT.

I own almost every GH/RB game on 360 except the first two (because of the covers) and RB 1 (can't find it on the wild) plus a bunch of DLCs. But i still got the PC rips so i can try some of the songs in PhaseShift. And to be able to listen to them without having to load the games, for convenience. Although not all rips are good quality.

Someone even made a nice audio player for those multitracks.

 

[Crimsonclaw111]

Being able to hear the actual end of some Metallica songs was awesome.

This, along with the aforementioned ...And Justice for All bass finally being available. It makes me angry that they haven't Remastered that album probably because fuck Jason is still their motto.

 

[Anth0ny]

You can also clearly hear Curt Kobain cough in "Smells like Teen Spirit" during one break

wow lol

is there a tool that can be used to rip this stuff? as a producer in training I feel like this could really come in handy, and I own a bunch of guitar hero/rock band games...

 

[Adam_Vania]

when the Beatles one dropped there were all kind of bootlegs that came out collecting the isolated tracks and studio snippets

 

[Crimsonclaw111]

wow lol

is there a tool that can be used to rip this stuff? as a producer in training I feel like this could really come in handy, and I own a bunch of guitar hero/rock band games...

Years ago there was a tool on Score Hero I think that ripped every game if you put the disc in the PC drive. Been ages since I looked at it.

 

[GoutPatrol]

when the Beatles one dropped there were all kind of bootlegs that came out collecting the isolated tracks and studio snippets

The studio chatter was my favorite part of Beatles Rock Band.

 

[nkarafo]

wow lol

is there a tool that can be used to rip this stuff? as a producer in training I feel like this could really come in handy, and I own a bunch of guitar hero/rock band games...

As far as i know ripping them isn't easy.

But maybe you can find some audio files on Youtube. Last time i checked most of the stuff was there. Just search for "instrumentals" and "vocals only" or "acapella". Most files you will find are from GH/RB rips. At least the ones with the best quality are surely GH/RB rips.

 

[nkarafo]

The whole FoFix - Phaseshift and the ripping community was created because of the lack of PC ports. PC users wanted those games as well but only got two Guitar Heroes. And no Rock Band games at all. Or expansions. Or DLCs. World Tour even has an interface for DLC songs but i don't think any DLC song was ever accessible for PC users... So they made their own games and ripped the songs so they can play them there.

Initially they were using Youtube rips for songs to play but later on they started ripping the multitracks. I still follow that community even though i own many of the games on the console. But mostly, they are making charts for songs that were never released in the games (obviously no multitracks there). So, if you want to play, say, some Mario Bros songs Guitar Hero style, you can with Phaseshift.

 

[Neoxon]

They were indeed a godsend in terms of hearing certain instruments more distinctly, especially when both adopted master recordings more & Rock Band picked up keyboard (& immediately dropped it for RB4).

 

[xzeldax3]

Those games allowed me to experience my favorite songs in ways I never thought were possible. It's magical to hear things that you never heard before due to the separated stems or not have fade outs. I remember Dio and Boston songs had completely new endings which were great.

 

[Falk]

There's also the case of listening to 4 or 5 different sound files at the same time instead of 1 that includes everything. Even if you listen to them at their original volume, you can still tell the instruments apart clearer if you have a good sound system. Or at least that's how it feels to me. Maybe it's just the bias of knowing this beforehand.

It's both. On one hand, "listening to 4 or 5 different sound files at the same time instead of 1" results in the exact same audio in general circumstances, the only difference being the waveforms being summed at the time of listening vs being summed prior and baked into one file.

On the other, and very much related to the Death Magnetic exacmple, is that what's on CDs, especially in the peak (har har) of the loudness war garbage period, has been squashed/processed to hell.

It's a similar (albeit incomparable, so don't start, lol) reason vinyl often sounds 'better' than CDs for the same recordings. Vinyl tends to have a better master just because it's physically impossible to play most squashed-to-death CD masters without the needle popping out of the groove. In other words limitations on the media is keeping the master at sane levels.

To answer your question, no, it's not a heaven for audiophiles in the strictest sense of the term. Audiophiles would want the stems to be lossless, not the encoded formats that game data generally ends up being (unless it's Titanfall on PC because reasons har har). It is, however, a heaven for people who'd like to look at the multitracks/stems for a lot of classics.

The fact that RB Beatles exists is nothing short of three different miracles stacked on top of each other.