Support NeoGAF

[Kamina]

Absolutely agree.
All we have is "Awesome Games", or "Shit Games" these days.
Story is medicore? Game is shit
Camera or controls are tricky? Game is shit
World is vast and requires some movement through fields or forests and doesn't have a treasure, sidequest or enemy behind every stone or bush? Game is Empty/boring shit.
I am so sick of people over exaggerating minor things.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

I can't say I understand the OP's perspective.

So, because I am a fan of something, I am not supposed to critique it?

I am sorry but that's not how it works. Nothing is perfect, everything has room to improve in some way. I think it is great to constructively criticize and discuss weak aspects of great games we still enjoy. Enjoyment and criticism should co-exist. Blindly following anything is never a good idea.

Bad things are bad, good things are good. There are bad games, there are good games, there are average games. There are good aspects of bad games, there are bad aspects of good games, there are mediocre aspects of almost every game. It is not a crime to discuss these things, nor should that discussion be looked down upon.

I don't want circle jerk echo chambers.

Game criticism shouldn't be shamed.

 

[Thanati]

Thread title. I thought the critical part was meant to be for video game reviewers. But as video game players, it seems like we're overly critical these days of things. Is it because negativity garners more attention on social media? What prompted this thread is when I came across a YT video called something like "how to fix KH3's combat." Like really, now Kingdom Heart's combat is considered "bad"? Cmon... this isn't even the first time I come across things like this. A similar attitude is held towards Bayonetta 2, which is looked down upon by a certain part of the fanbase for not being a technical enough game. While it's true Bayonetta 1 in comparison has several subtle superiorities, that doesn't take away the fun factor in the slightest from Bayo 2. It's still a really fun mechanically sound action game.

Tl:dr: I'm sick of coming across negativity regarding video games so frequently online. I wish the internet could be more positive regarding the medium we're supposed to enjoy.

100% agree!

 

[Dr. Claus]

Absolutely agree.
All we have is "Awesome Games", or "Shit Games" these days.
Story is medicore? Game is shit
Camera or controls are tricky? Game is shit
World is vast and requires some movement through fields or forests and doesn't have a treasure, sidequest or enemy behind every stone or bush? Game is Empty/boring shit.
I am so sick of people over exaggerating minor things.

Yep. There is a lack of nuance to discussion. Happens here as well. A game may be slow? Its complete shit. Graphics have minor anti-aliasing on a car that you can only see when you pause or slow down the game by 80%? Game is shit. Game has anime? It's shit.

While I know that many are being facetious and exaggerative with their criticisms and calling it "shit" - it does get tiring when you see it over and over and over again.

 

[Enjay]

If only developers were skilled enough nowadays to fix those issues that are commonly complained about.

IE if your video game still has shit camera today after all these decades then yeah your game IS shit.

 

[Danjin44]

Absolutely agree.
All we have is "Awesome Games", or "Shit Games" these days.
Story is medicore? Game is shit
Camera or controls are tricky? Game is shit
World is vast and requires some movement through fields or forests and doesn't have a treasure, sidequest or enemy behind every stone or bush? Game is Empty/boring shit.
I am so sick of people over exaggerating minor things.

over exaggeration has become a thing in NeoGAF. If they see character walking in the game it has becomes walking simulation and fuck the combat and every mechanics in the game, characters should not be allowed to walk.

 

[009EspadaSageJay]

That's partially true.

While there absolutely exists fair criticism for very sound reasons, like @GreyHorace and 009EspadaSageJay pointed out, I do think some games get judged overly harsh, for example the low-mid budget janky games. They often tend to be subjects of mockery.

I realise that they aren't everybody's cup of tea, but imo those AA janky games have more charm and personality than the graphical powerhouses the AAA industry keeps churning out. They're enjoyable on their own merits. Not everything has to adhere to AAA standards.

The problem is that people now a days have problems with critique on not being apart of a hive mind. The Videogame critique community is one of the only few communities that actually does any sort of honest reviewing all games have problems and none of them are perfect but when you have these giant publications throwing around 8s,9 and 10s to mediocre games there is a problem.

@01011001
made a great example for uncharted 4 in no way would i give that game a 10 that game is one of the most onrail TPS games I have played this entire gen next to the order. What do games like that bring to the industry or the medium of gaming gaming as a medum is interactive you sitting in cutscenes forever or just walking for miles on one with characters talking about nothing does nothing for the game. Great graphics only do so much and most of the people who value graphics to insane levels will get burnt out of them in week. Story in games is not a make or breaking point for most games games have longer run times then movies so the in between sections the game has needs to be padded them out with filler. What you do in that time should be enjoyable but most games now a days just have to do fetch quest or like uncharted walk and climb for most of it. UC1-3 didnt have this problem in those games it was either a climbing section, a set piece, a shoot out, a puzzle or a interesting take on a boss fight. In UC4 its either walking,climbing,Small talk with characters or a cut scene with the small 5 min shootout or set piece at best that is a massive downgrade.

 

[009EspadaSageJay]

Absolutely agree.
All we have is "Awesome Games", or "Shit Games" these days.
Story is medicore? Game is shit
Camera or controls are tricky? Game is shit
World is vast and requires some movement through fields or forests and doesn't have a treasure, sidequest or enemy behind every stone or bush? Game is Empty/boring shit.
I am so sick of people over exaggerating minor things.

Now your just using a strawman argument to make a point if a game that is mostly story base and the story sucks the game sucks heavy rain is a good example what gameplay is there in that game outside of the story if you hate the story you hate the game because the whole game is pretty much just a story.
If a Camera in a game is terrible that seriously hampers game play in GOW 2018 the fact that the camera is so close to kratos back that you can see anything Actively hurts the gameplay and for a Hack n slash game or character action game you not being able to see what around you ruins gameplay point blank.

"World is vast and requires some movement through fields or forests and doesn't have a treasure, Sidequest or enemy behind every stone or bush? Game is Empty/boring shit."
yea that would make a open world game terrible tom clancy ghost recon wildlands had this problem if your open world game is open with nothing in it or nothing to do that sucks. A open world game should make me want to explore or look around every nook and craney or want to 100% the entire game like saints row 2 or gta san andreas. Gameing has gotten worst and most people are not affarid to admit it you can still like gaming and say that the quality of current games is horrible especially when you factor in that these games have atrocious 6+ year dev times and how we get games that are nothing more then hollywood movies with barely any gameplay or open world games with nothing in them.

 

[009EspadaSageJay]

over exaggeration has become a thing in NeoGAF. If they see character walking in the game it has becomes walking simulation and fuck the combat and every mechanics in the game, characters should not be allowed to walk.

How many of these walking games have good combat im talking about like combat you would bother mastering or playing on a daily to monthly biases to get good at it. Im going to say almost none since most of these games fizzle out into nothing after they release these games are the equivalent of the Hollywood summer block buster movie hot for a few weeks then forgotten the next. Most of these walking games are propt up on the story and graphics if you played these games for just the gameplay you would come back completely unsatisfied.

 

[zeorhymer]

Because Youtube, Twitter, and generally internetz.

 

[Hawks Eclipse]

Another factor to "just enjoying games"...

Many of us have been enjoying games for years if not decades. You can only say "Where did you find this game?!? I really really really love this game" so many different ways in so many different words. A community full of this conversation isn't all that interesting. At least hate and arguments spur some kind of conversation.

The implication is that one must post quality in order to get your point across, and this is difficult. Maybe one isn't well-spoken or otherwise able to express thoughts. Heck, maybe one is straight-up a bad writer and has bad taste in games. You can bet no matter how well-explained the opinion is, it will be belittled and dismissed with one-sentence drive-bys, and this is discouraging.

First off, in case you noticed I 'unliked' your post, it's not because I dislike it. I 'like' posts either because I agree with what they're saying or because I don't have much else to add on but thought it was good and want the poster to at least know I've read it. Sometimes it's also cause someone mentions a game that I don't see mentioned much and it's my way of giving a high-five.

So now that I've decided to reply to you (more like a ramble), I've also removed the reaction, please understand (hah).

IMO shallow praise is pointless, as I discussed with Roni weeks ago. I don't see much value when someone says stuff like "Sekiro is one of the best games of all time".

A basic chatbot could randomly insert a game name and spout "______ is one of the best games of all time", and some people on GAF (or any social media) will like that post. BTW, a bot could easily give reactions as well.

I'm sure for some people it's as you said: it's not easy to articulate and talk deeper about why a game is good. It's very much its own discipline and yet a lot of these people who can't articulate themselves properly are quicker than the wind to shoot down journalists who can't play games as well or express their gripes with games that these people like.

Do I think every gaffer is an edgelord? No. Do I think every journalist has bad opinions or is part of an anti-gamer cabal? No.

I've read some great posts on here detailing why a game is good and I've also read great articles in gaming media. There is good stuff to be found on both sides, so to speak.

I think ever since the split, the smaller number of people on here playing the same games means there is generally less indepth discussion to be had.

Heck, maybe you wanna talk about the scoring system or enemy wave design in a particular shmup and I'd love to participate except I have not dedicated my gaming life to playing that genre, so regrettably I can't offer much in that area.

It also doesn't help that I've seen posts with plenty of thought put into them get trolled by driveby comments. I don't mind humour, though I hope there's more to say than just a meme attempt.

I know I've not felt very motivated to write a lot on here because it's either a reaction (which I don't care for) or no reaction at all. It's somewhat rare that someone actually says something in response and I think that's a sad as fuck situation.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

First off, in case you noticed I 'unliked' your post, it's not because I dislike it. I 'like' posts either because I agree with what they're saying or because I don't have much else to add on but thought it was good and want the poster to at least know I've read it. Sometimes it's also cause someone mentions a game that I don't see mentioned much and it's my way of giving a high-five.

So now that I've decided to reply to you (more like a ramble), I've also removed the reaction, please understand (hah).

IMO shallow praise is pointless, as I discussed with Roni weeks ago. I don't see much value when someone says stuff like "Sekiro is one of the best games of all time".

A basic chatbot could randomly insert a game name and spout "______ is one of the best games of all time", and some people on GAF (or any social media) will like that post. BTW, a bot could easily give reactions as well.

I'm sure for some people it's as you said: it's not easy to articulate and talk deeper about why a game is good. It's very much its own discipline and yet a lot of these people who can't articulate themselves properly are quicker than the wind to shoot down journalists who can't play games as well or express their gripes with games that these people like.

Do I think every gaffer is an edgelord? No. Do I think every journalist has bad opinions or is part of an anti-gamer cabal? No.

I've read some great posts on here detailing why a game is good and I've also read great articles in gaming media. There is good stuff to be found on both sides, so to speak.

I think ever since the split, the smaller number of people on here playing the same games means there is generally less indepth discussion to be had.

Heck, maybe you wanna talk about the scoring system or enemy wave design in a particular shmup and I'd love to participate except I have not dedicated my gaming life to playing that genre, so regrettably I can't offer much in that area.

It also doesn't help that I've seen posts with plenty of thought put into them get trolled by driveby comments. I don't mind humour, though I hope there's more to say than just a meme attempt.

I know I've not felt very motivated to write a lot on here because it's either a reaction (which I don't care for) or no reaction at all. It's somewhat rare that someone actually says something in response and I think that's a sad as fuck situation.

In my opinion, the only way to engender solid discussion is to put yourself out there and weather the trolls. It does suck because driveby comments are far easier to make but the mod team will eventually ban those kinds of posters when it gets too excessive.

 

[EightBit Man]

The idea about something can become of more importance than the thing itself sometimes. I think it is good to "stray off the path" once in a while, and discover games that were critically panned while you might enjoy them. I did that since the very beginning, and owned obscure, lukewarm-received games that are now considered classics.

And while I think it is good to point out the negatives of a game, a series, a company, whatnot...it is equally important to see things within context. If you don't like a thing, talk about it, and move on; spending time of the things you do like.

While I can talk about the negative things happening in the industry, I'd rather talk about the great things. Games have more interesting stories these days, as well as beautiful graphics and great sound. I have skipped the current console generation, but I am seriously considering entering the next one after years of mainly playing games prior to the current generation of games.

 

[Hawks Eclipse]

In my opinion, the only way to engender solid discussion is to put yourself out there and weather the trolls. It does suck because driveby comments are far easier to make but the mod team will eventually ban those kinds of posters when it gets too excessive.

I wrote another long post and I figured I don't want to put you through that.

So, TL;DR: there's no discussion to be had if no one engages. Or maybe some things will get replied to a few months later. I dunno.

Oh and just to state my POV, I'm fine with the occasional drivebys and troll replies, as long as they aren't burying actual discussion. I'm all for having fun and humour when discussing stuff.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I wrote another long post and I figured I don't want to put you through that.

So, TL;DR: there's no discussion to be had if no one engages. Or maybe some things will get replied to a few months later. I dunno.

Oh and just to state my POV, I'm fine with the occasional drivebys and troll replies, as long as they aren't burying actual discussion. I'm all for having fun and humour when discussing stuff.

Agreed, I am all about some levity and fun. These are gaming boards, not a public court.

I also don't mind long posts. I make a lot of em and they usually aren't given an equally-lengthy reply, and that's okay.

 

[Jigsaah]

Ya gotta have something to talk about in the internet bro.

Yea it's either that or fight over the best pornstars...and that would just get weird.

 

[Hawks Eclipse]

Agreed, I am all about some levity and fun. These are gaming boards, not a public court.

I also don't mind long posts. I make a lot of em and they usually aren't given an equally-lengthy reply, and that's okay.

Yea, I know it's unreasonable to expect every single point in a long post to be addressed and oftentimes keeping it shorter helps the discussion flow.

I just have a tendency of tacking more and more points on and before I know it, even I find it tiresome to proofread haha.

 

[Karma Jawa]

I remember playing games like Cannon Fodder which was so fun and simple. Other games like Dizzy Egg which were just enjoyable. I guess it's the innocence of childhood.

It's easy to be picky with games. I'm half playing The Sinking City and it's got numerous problems. However it's got a lot of good things going on too. I'm wrestling with the instinct to abandon it because I don't like the handling, but have to check myself and remember that there's a lot of love that has gone into it, and whilst not perfect, it doesn't have to be to simply enjoy it.

 

[Hawks Eclipse]

If only developers were skilled enough nowadays to fix those issues that are commonly complained about.

IE if your video game still has shit camera today after all these decades then yeah your game IS shit.

Which game/s do you have in mind with your example?

I complain about the cameras to myself quite often when things go wrong but a lot of the time it comes down to being familiar with the camera behaviour and playing along with it.

 

[VertigoOA]

I enjoy reading rants. Most forum "gamers" are completely clueless about most genres. It's fun watching them lie about games they don't play or genres they suck at. And that's where the conversation usually degrades into meaningless SJW bullshit criticisms that are insignificant to those who actually play these games.

Gaming journalism is a farce and it's easy to see why Youtubers making content from mom's basement are taking over. Their careers are made insignificant by 14 year olds who do this shit for free.

Then again ... that also produced faux gamer hacks like YongYea who are nothing but parrots crying over whatever outrage retardera obsesses over.

 

[Kumomeme]

internet is place where toxicity accumulate

 

[Hypereides]

I also loathe people who review games that they haven't played, only watched.

A majority of the industry professional game reviewers then, I assume?

 

[Enjay]

Which game/s do you have in mind with your example?

I complain about the cameras to myself quite often when things go wrong but a lot of the time it comes down to being familiar with the camera behaviour and playing along with it.

Almost every non nintendo japanese game i've played since the jump to 3d

 

[Hawks Eclipse]

Almost every non nintendo japanese game i've played since the jump to 3d

That's a very broad answer. I assume the cameras in RE4 and God Hand are fine?

 

[The Alien]

Bless the internet because it has given everyone a voice.

Blame the internet because it has given everyone a voice.

 

[Enjay]

That's a very broad answer. I assume the cameras in RE4 and God Hand are fine?

I remember re4's being all right but it's been a long while since I've played it myself. God Hand I'm foggy on can't remember whether the problem was the camera control or movement/walking controls, though imo the camera could've been pulled back a little in it. Off the top of my head Revengeance's camera frustrated me especially during the vr missions by zooming in too much and sometimes "getting stuck" behind certain walls. Bayonetta's camera would get stuck too. The most recent game I remember with camera problems was actually western developed Jedi Fallen Order.

 

[Hawks Eclipse]

I remember re4's being all right but it's been a long while since I've played it myself. God Hand I'm foggy on can't remember whether the problem was the camera control or movement/walking controls, though imo the camera could've been pulled back a little in it. Off the top of my head Revengeance's camera frustrated me especially during the vr missions by zooming in too much and sometimes "getting stuck" behind certain walls. Bayonetta's camera would get stuck too. The most recent game I remember with camera problems was actually western developed Jedi Fallen Order.

Yea I was suspecting you're referring to cameras like those in the faster-paced action games.

God Hand keeps the camera firmly behind your back at all times, main issue people would have is the camera's relatively close up and that it uses tank controls

Anyway, I've had my fair share of cursing at cameras in Ninja Gaiden, MGR, Astral Chain etc.

I think as long as the devs are going to program the camera to react to player actions "intelligently", it'll inevitably result in some unwanted angles.

At the risk of sounding like I'm saying "git gud", it always takes me quite a bit of playtime to get accustomed to the behavioural patterns of each game's camera but after that, it's very much like understanding enemy AI in a game and manipulating it.

I will say that pre-2018 God of War games and their fixed cameras (with directed movement based on each scene/location) are probably your cup of tea. Though sometimes they do it at the expense of having the camera quite far out, so Kratos is tiny on screen.

Weird, Fallen Order seems to be inspired by the Souls type of camera and those only go awry once you remove the lock-on. Then again I didn't play it so I can't say much else.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Nobody hates video games as much as gamers do.

 

[Bathtub Fart]

For me, there have been so many GREAT games that they often overshadow games that come out over a decade later.

Comparison is the thief of joy. Can't help it.

 

[SirKicksalot]

Postmodernism, in the Baudrillardian sense of a nihilistic self-centred society fascinated by absence. Should be over in a decade or two as today's young people are getting tired of our bullshit.

 

[Whitesnake]

Somewhat relevant.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

Cynicism has been a problem with gaming culture for a long time, maybe even forever? But it got especially bad with the advent of the 7th gen consoles, all you ever heard during that period was how gaming sucks now, video games just aren't as good as they were in the past etc.

The 7th gen was to be fair an awkward period for gaming with a lot of growing pains, but things got better, however that cynicism never fully went away.

Sometimes shit does just suck, but you also have to take a glass half full approach to everything, otherwise you're going to let cynicism take away fun you could be having if you just lightened the fuck up a bit.