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What Is a Woman? The dispute between radical feminism and transgenderism.

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Feminists defining themselves this way in the nature vs nurture debate is one of the few reasons why I refuse to associate myself with modern feminism.

This article is absolutely vile too. The people in it make me sick.

I hope, at the very least, you know that despite what the article seems to suggest, TERFs (trans-exclusionary radical feminists) are about as big as the Westboro Baptist Church and don't represent radical feminists or feminism--they're a small, loud, single-issue hate group.
 
Had to stop reading at the point it was suggested that trans people enjoy being harassed. It's too early in the morning to get this angry

TERFs are a loud minority of bigoted imbeciles that mostly consist of ancient second-wave feminist and dumb young women that hang on to their every toxic word.
Like, I have no fucking time for these poisonous people; they don't deserve any attention.
 

Jarate

Banned
I hope, at the very least, you know that despite what the article seems to suggest, TERFs (trans-exclusionary radical feminists) are about as big as the Westboro Baptist Church and don't represent radical feminists or feminism--they're a small, loud, single-issue hate group.

Ive seen it a lot more often being spewed by non radical feminists a ton of times. Most feminists would probably disagree, but there's still a lot of them that would agree somewhat strongly with those opinions on gender.

Feminism is still a better movement then the MRA and shit, but let's not pretend it doesn't have some glaring flaws that should be called out.
 
Ugh. I hate when shit like this comes out. It gives all feminists a bad rap. No, what those women are saying isn't real feminism. Real feminism involves intersectionality. It's just like those white feminists who say that women like Rihanna are bad because they show skin. smh.

But what of Scotsmen?
 

benjipwns

Banned
I hope, at the very least, you know that despite what the article seems to suggest, TERFs (trans-exclusionary radical feminists) are about as big as the Westboro Baptist Church and don't represent radical feminists or feminism--they're a small, loud, single-issue hate group.
To be fair to the article, but to support your point, it should be noted that whenever it describes the RadFem groups it talks about them in terms of "dozens" or "a few gathered" or what have you.
 
Ive seen it a lot more often being spewed by non radical feminists a ton of times. Most feminists would probably disagree, but there's still a lot of them that would agree somewhat strongly with those opinions on gender.

Feminism is still a better movement then the MRA and shit, but let's not pretend it doesn't have some glaring flaws that should be called out.

What's your beef with intersectional feminism, what would you call out?

To be fair to the article, but to support your point, it should be noted that whenever it describes the RadFem groups it talks about them in terms of "dozens" or "a few gathered" or what have you.

Yeah. I was more referring to the way they'd talk about TERFs but say "Radical feminists..." when starting sentences and phrases.
 

gogosox82

Member
I always find this issue very interesting. I remember being friends with a few radical feminists back when I was doing my undergrad work and I can understand where they are coming from to a certain extent. I guess what I never understood was the part where they essentially have to argue that being a women is essential to understanding the oppression that women face by society which always stuck me as an odd distinction to make since feminism (or at least my understanding of it) always argued against that distinction ( ie predefined gender roles).
 

sphagnum

Banned
Feminism is still a better movement then the MRA and shit, but let's not pretend it doesn't have some glaring flaws that should be called out.

Oh, it certainy does. TERF opinion, white/liberal feminism that doesn't take intersectionality into account, "sex-positive" feminism that often ends up just supporting patriarchal notions, etc.

Not sure if that's what you mean though.
 
So, I'm confused. If FTM trans are doing it to supposedly improve their status (male>female),and they're concerned that MTF trans people are just doing it as some kind of turn on and to demonstrate their male privilege of being able to choose their gender...then surely...women have that self same privilege, as evidenced by the FTM trans people??
 

Reishiki

Banned
The majority of modern feminists would think the article is disgusting too.

I hope, at the very least, you know that despite what the article seems to suggest, TERFs (trans-exclusionary radical feminists) are about as big as the Westboro Baptist Church and don't represent radical feminists or feminism--they're a small, loud, single-issue hate group.

About that:

"It doesn't matter an infinitesimal speck to me how small or large a group of feminists from privileged classes alienate feminists from non-privileged classes. I'm not going to spend my time quantifying how many of us are demonstrably terrible, because that serves literally no purpose but trying to convince someone already hurting that their harm was negligible."
 

Yrael

Member
About that:

That was said in the context of a post about how being actively against the loud-mouthed bigoted extremists of the bunch is more important than merely distancing yourself from them by saying "they're only a minority anyway" while remaining silent on the harm that this group causes.

http://www.shakesville.com/2013/03/and-then-this-happened.html

Don't get me wrong: I know this is true. I know, in most cases, it is really is a "small but vocal group" of any community who engages in silencing and intimidation.

But of the "large but silent group" of all these communities, who supposedly don't agree with the hostile disgorgements of the "small but vocal group," the people most likely to speak up do so primarily to defend themselves, to distance themselves from that "small but vocal group," to oblige me to reassure them that I know there is a "large but silent group" who is totally on my side, even though their silence indicates otherwise.

They reach out to me, while I'm navigating the expected bile of typical garbage nightmares, in order to seek my assistance in salving their own discomfort of affiliation. Which is exactly as unwelcome as it sounds.

"Hey, the rest of us aren't like those knuckleheads!" is not a comfort. It is a way of obliging me to concede that simply not being a dirtbag is sufficient action to consider themselves my ally.

I will not concede that. Because it isn't.

This urge to distance oneself from the "small but vocal group," and attempt to mask as solidarity what is actually a deflection of accountability, is a phenomenon I've previously described, not coincidentally, in a piece on Christian privilege and being asked to make distinctions between "real Christians" and the self-identified Christians who seek to do harm.

And I can agree with that, while also agreeing that it's important to clarify that yes, feminism on the whole really is a worthwhile movement and is not represented by TERF ideology. This is why I'm glad to see things like this:

http://www.secularwoman.org/Feminis...nti-Trans_Harassment_Reaches_5,000_Signatures
 

Moff

Member
That was said in the context of a post about how being actively against the loud-mouthed bigoted extremists of the bunch is more important than merely distancing yourself from them by saying "they're only a minority anyway" while remaining silent on the harm that this group causes.

http://www.shakesville.com/2013/03/and-then-this-happened.html



And I can agree with that, while also agreeing that it's important to clarify that yes, feminism on the whole really is a worthwhile movement and is not represented by TERF ideology. This is why I'm glad to see things like this:

http://www.secularwoman.org/Feminis...nti-Trans_Harassment_Reaches_5,000_Signatures

uhg, gender identity watch? what the hell? not sure if I want to read up on that.
 

Reishiki

Banned
That was said in the context of a post about how being actively against the loud-mouthed bigoted extremists of the bunch is more important than merely distancing yourself from them by saying "they're only a minority anyway" while remaining silent on the harm that this group causes.

http://www.shakesville.com/2013/03/and-then-this-happened.html

Thanks for the link, I'd forgot to put it in my post. To me, this is the difference between the WBC and TERFs. The WBC aren't really given column inches, and if they are, it's to point out how vile they are. TERFs are given a platform (as with this article), but it's presented as a 'dissenting' or 'alternative' viewpoint, rather than the pseudoscientific bigoted bullshit that it is.

As that article points out, though, the dismissal tactic between 'real' Christians and non-TERFs is basically identical.

And I can agree with that, while also agreeing that it's important to clarify that yes, feminism on the whole really is a worthwhile movement and is not represented by TERF ideology. This is why I'm glad to see things like this:

http://www.secularwoman.org/Feminis...nti-Trans_Harassment_Reaches_5,000_Signatures

If anything, at least it dredged up some nasty business with the SPLC. Another indication of how amazingly insidious this sort of hate gets.
 

Ikael

Member
Radical feminists reject the notion of a “female brain.” They believe that if women think and act differently from men it’s because society forces them to, requiring them to be sexually attractive, nurturing, and deferential. In the words of Lierre Keith, a speaker at Radfems Respond, femininity is “ritualized submission.”

Yeah! Do not let pesky reality contradict you precious ideas! It is reality that it is wrong, not you! Fight the man! Gah.

This is the crux of the matter, and this is why I reject the whole "bu but everything related to gender is a social construct" argument of some modern feminists. We are social animals, but animals regardless. There's a very biological, instinctual component to our socialization process. The existence of trans-gendered people really seem to point out towards at an innate sexual tendency (or "female brain") that dictates our behaviour, at least up to a certain point. The answer to the whole "nuture VS nature" debate can very well be a "both are valid answers". You won't cast a necromancy spell over phrenology and biology-backed racial suprematist theories by admitting that nature plays a part at shaping human behaviour.

As for TERFs, it sounds like a very minoritary, looney fringe branch of feminism and not representative of mainstream feminism at all, thanks God. Then again, no matter how good-intentioned your ideas are, if you radicalize them enough they will turn into worthless shit.
 

sploatee

formerly Oynox Slider
I wonder how much of their day the people mentioned in the article spend actively hating trans folk. It must be so draining. I really don't see what they hope to achieve. Still, the white man marches on and all that.
 

Yrael

Member
uhg, gender identity watch? what the hell? not sure if I want to read up on that.

It's basically a blog that consistently attacks and argues against legal protection for transgender people. It's as nasty as it sounds (the owner has been known to "out" transgender people against their wishes).

If anything, at least it dredged up some nasty business with the SPLC. Another indication of how amazingly insidious this sort of hate gets.

That is very disappointing from the SPLC, a site dedicated to monitoring hate groups.
 

Scooter

Banned
Radical feminists reject the notion of a “female brain.” They believe that if women think and act differently from men it’s because society forces them to, requiring them to be sexually attractive, nurturing, and deferential.

So they reject scientific research and studies of many years. Good to know that radical feminism is fucking bonkers.
 
They make it sound like being transgender is all sunshine and lollipops. Like a man just wakes up one day and chooses I'm gonna be a woman and the world is totally cool with it. It's not about entitlement or something they choose, it's about being true to who you are.

They go through their own ordeals. Many commit suicide. What a terribly ignorant and selfish view to take. It shows zero empathy for other people's struggles.
 

Moff

Member
I wonder how much of their day the people mentioned in the article spend actively hating trans folk. It must be so draining. I really don't see what they hope to achieve. Still, the white man marches on and all that.

indeed. it reminds me a bit of the clichée of the gay hating homophobe, who turns out to be gay himself, but cant accept it.
the thought that she may be a man in the wrong body must be equally terrifying and unacceptable for a radical feminist.
 
We should gather up all the "radfems" and transgendered and make them watch the entire run of Get Smart.

I'd love it if Get Smart's original series were available to all, including other transgender folk and radfems. Not fond of the idea of 'gathering up' my people, though--we've had enough people calling for us to be thrown into a concentration camp.

Radfems makes me think of Radscorpions from Fallout

:3 My Fallout-loving partner thought the same, when they were playing the new games in '11-ish.
 

xbhaskarx

Member
I don't know much about these issues or this controversy, but everyone here seems to be siding with the transgender side over the radfem side (sorry if that's not the proper term for either), and even expressing disapproval at the latter group ("give feminists a bad name") and even calling them a hate group... but what about this:

Abusive posts proliferated on Twitter and, especially, Tumblr. One read, “/kill/terfs 2K14.” Another suggested, “how about ‘slowly and horrendously murder terfs in saw-like torture machines and contraptions’ 2K14.” A young blogger holding a knife posted a selfie with the caption “Fetch me a terf.” Such threats have become so common that radical-feminist Web sites have taken to cataloguing them. “It’s aggrieved entitlement,” Lierre Keith told me. “They are so angry that we will not see them as women.”
 

Mahadev

Member
So they reject scientific research and studies of many years. Good to know that radical feminism is fucking bonkers.

Radfems are the climate change deniers of gender issues. Some people have a hard time believing what I'm about to say but it's true; many of them actually refer to some scientific fields as pseudoscience because their research disagrees with radfem bullshit.
 

Yrael

Member
I don't know much about these issues or this controversy, but everyone here seems to be siding with the transgender side over the radfem side (sorry if that's not the proper term for either), and even expressing disapproval at the latter group ("give feminists a bad name") and even calling them a hate group... but what about this:

I don't agree with threats of violence or death either, no matter who they're aimed at.
 

Lafiel

と呼ぶがよい
Have a friend whose tied up in a clique who very much is into that nonsense. It's very frustrating since any criticism of it is seen as insulting to her own personal identity. Especially since she is after all part of a marginalised social group.
 
I think I'm treading on thin ice here, but here it goes:

I've always been a firm believer in the biological aspect of gender, in that even if you might identify as a woman, if you're born as a man with male chromosomes, you're a man.

I absolutely recognize the social aspect of genders, I even face it myself as I a lot of times feel limited as a man when it comes to fashion and stuff. (I know how fucking belittling it sounds, sorry)

I don't have much experience with these topics and feel incredibly uncertain where I stand in the general consensus. Are my opinions regressive and malicious and should I then change my ways?
 

V_Arnold

Member
I think I'm treading on thin ice here, but here it goes:

I've always been a firm believer in the biological aspect of gender, in that even if you might identify as a woman, if you're born as a man with male chromosomes, you're a man.

I absolutely recognize the social aspect of genders, I even face it myself as I a lot of times feel limited as a man when it comes to fashion and stuff. (I know how fucking belittling it sounds, sorry)

I don't have much experience with these topics and feel incredibly uncertain where I stand in the general consensus. Are my opinions regressive and malicious and should I then change my ways?

I have no idea about my stance's correctness on this either.
I find most social constructs horribly outdated and borderline useless/harmful. I consider peer pressure, "grow some balls", animal torture just for cheap bacon (and the "it is tradition" part of eating habits), tribal mentality, the existence of borders.. all that, pretty much more harmful to us at this point than good. Imho.

Genders will always have a role in biology: if you are capable of impregnating a female, you are then a male. If you are capable of bearing a child, then you are a female. Everything else is the social stigma, and will fall off in due time. (What a "woman" should do and what makes a "man" a man. Pointless. Everyone should have the power to decide on what they are themselves, when it comes to behavior and social aspects.)
 
Genders will always have a role in biology: if you are capable of impregnating a female, you are then a male. If you are capable of bearing a child, then you are a female. Everything else is the social stigma, and will fall off in due time. (What a "woman" should do and what makes a "man" a man. Pointless. Everyone should have the power to decide on what they are themselves, when it comes to behavior and social aspects.)

A: That's sex, not gender.
B: What if you can neither impregnate a female nor bear a child?
 

Yrael

Member
People may find this useful:

Genderbread-2.1.jpg
 

V_Arnold

Member
A: That's sex, not gender.
B: What if you can neither impregnate a female nor bear a child?

A: Alright, that is helpful, thanks. Non-native english :D
B: Then you have no role in reproduction. Not a big deal. (Imho, not a deal at all.)

(Edit: of course, that B you said reveals the flaws in my logic. What if in the future, someone has a functional penis and is able to give birth as well? Move along :D)
 

Gawge

Member
I've always been a firm believer in the biological aspect of gender, in that even if you might identify as a woman, if you're born as a man with male chromosomes, you're a man.

I have never gendered somebody on the basis of their chromosomes in my life, I doubt that you have either. I wouldn't know how to go about checking somebodies chromosomes. I have never checked my own chromosomes.

Many people never have to reconcile any difference between their biological sex and their gender identity, so just assume that they are the same thing. However, if you just listen to trans men and women, it is clear that many people do have a gender identity which is different to that of their biological sex. It seems fairly clear when you actually listen to the experiences of people.

All in all, in pretty much every circumstance in which we gender other people, we do so based on their secondary sex characteristics - not on their genitals, and certainly not by their chromosomes. I don't think it is much of a problem to respect the clear gender identity which people possess.
 
Maybe some of this is flying over my head but it sorta reminds me of how some blacks and whites treat mixed race(black and white) people differently because they're not one of 'them'.

"You're not really black." or "You're not really white." Sort of deal.
 
A woman is a person who feels they are a woman.

MtFs aren't raised as women. They are raised as men, with all of its societal privileges, benefits, and expectations. They are incapable of truly being a woman because they cannot understand the systematic oppression that women are raised with.

That is the argument of most radical feminists.

I've also seen this argument arise in some transgendered circles, that there is a split between those who transition out of some base fetishism and those who transition because of true body dysphoria. I believe that tumblr likes to call them truescum or something like that.


I'm not going to say what my opinion is, just what I've come across and how people rationalize their opinions.
 

Kangi

Member
MtFs aren't raised as women. They are raised as men, with all of its societal privileges, benefits, and expectations. They are incapable of truly being a woman because they cannot understand the systematic oppression that women are raised with.

That is the argument of most radical feminists.
That's... one of the most arbitrary, flimsy, and vague excuses to draw the "real women" line short of those who were born with a mismatched sex.

Like, what happens if the time comes that a cis woman is raised free of oppression? Is she not a woman, either? And if the transgender woman was raised as a girl throughout her life and went through the same oppression regardless of the chromosomes she was born with? Is she a woman or not?

I can't wrap my head around this. TERFs don't get to define what an entire gender is. My goodness.
 

Platy

Member
MtFs aren't raised as women. They are raised as men, with all of its societal privileges, benefits, and expectations. They are incapable of truly being a woman because they cannot understand the systematic oppression that women are raised with.

That is the argument of most radical feminists.

I've also seen this argument arise in some transgendered circles, that there is a split between those who transition out of some base fetishism and those who transition because of true body dysphoria. I believe that tumblr likes to call them truescum or something like that.

I'm not going to say what my opinion is, just what I've come across and how people rationalize their opinions.

If you transition because of a fetish than you will end up with body dysphoria AND will detransition for sure.
And then you will count both as a fetish number AND a detransition number ... both ridiculously small numbers that transphobic people LOVE to make it bigger.

Considering that a trans women grew up with "all of its societal privileges, benefits, and expectations" is to not understand the trans experience at all.
I blame the media that makes it looks like some day trans people get up and "change their gender" =P

The reality is WAY more complex, from the fact that most of those "privileges" hurts you to the fact that you FEEL how women are opressed because you are a women looking at how women are treated in the media/world (and being a square full of hair does NOT help looking at the beauty standards)....and then when you try to conform to the norms of what society expect of you (a woman), you receive a beating because it is degrating for a "man" to do it. And lets not even talk about people who reach androginy status or beyond ("passing") to receive the full package (misoginy from those you pass and beatings from those that "know" that you are a "guy"), some at very young ages.

That is of course ignoring all those lucky trans girls who got acepting parents and "transition" at a very low age

Yes, you do get a little better because you also got a chemistry kit as a child ... next to that ugly toy. But then again, more modern parents does not turn a girl into a boy because of what toys they gave her
 
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