What ISIS Really Wants (The Atlantic)

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Perversely, part of me admires the ultra orthodox interpretation of a collection of fairy tales.

Anyone who believes in a magic Santa in the sky, is at best ignorant, at worst dangerous.

Perhaps, if any good is to come this, it will encourage more to question their belief in the supernatural and embrace atheism, built on humanism and rationality.

Of course, I don't believe that will happen...happy to put my hand up for relocating to the Atheist State of Rationality. (Though fortunately I already reside in New Zealand, religion gets put in its place here, quietly in the corner, looking embarrassed.)
 
Sutton Dagger said:
Dude, I remember a conversation with you where you tried to claim that Mohammed used in essence a 'force push' and thus never physically pushed someone. You went to great lengths to prove Mohammed never used violence and was therefore pure/Holy.
Click to expand...

'force push'
Click to expand...

Wait seriously? Maybe it was a satirical post he was joking about? He's been fairly grounded, and it seems unlikely he'd make an argument like that from what I've gathered from his posts. Do you have a link?
 
ambientric said:
Perversely, part of me admires the ultra orthodox interpretation of a collection of fairy tales.

Anyone who believes in a magic Santa in the sky, is at best ignorant, at worst dangerous.

Perhaps, if any good is to come this, it will encourage more to question their belief in the supernatural and embrace atheism, built on humanism and rationality.

Of course, I don't believe that will happen...happy to put my hand up for relocating to the Atheist State of Rationality. (Though fortunately I already reside in New Zealand, religion gets put in its place here, quietly in the corner, looking embarrassed.)
Click to expand...

bye fleicional

anyone who believes in God is ignorant at best or dangerous at worst? you're not doing your atheist bros any favors with sentiment like that.
 
ambientric said:
Perversely, part of me admires the ultra orthodox interpretation of a collection of fairy tales.

Anyone who believes in a magic Santa in the sky, is at best ignorant, at worst dangerous.

Perhaps, if any good is to come this, it will encourage more to question their belief in the supernatural and embrace atheism, built on humanism and rationality.

Of course, I don't believe that will happen...happy to put my hand up for relocating to the Atheist State of Rationality. (Though fortunately I already reside in New Zealand, religion gets put in its place here, quietly in the corner, looking embarrassed.)
Click to expand...

Nothing quite as humanist as looking down on fellow humans.
 
M0nochromatic said:
Wait seriously? Maybe it was a satirical post he was joking about? He's been fairly grounded, and it seems unlikely he'd make an argument like that from what I've gathered from his posts. Do you have a link?
Click to expand...

No I don't, but I'm sure he remembers what I'm talking about, it was a while ago. What about his posts makes you think he wouldn't accept a 'force push', when he accepts supernatural occurrences talked about in tbe Quran. I would love for him to clarify if he remembers though.
 
Sutton Dagger said:
No I don't, but I'm sure he remembers what I'm talking about, it was a while ago. What about his posts makes you think he wouldn't accept a 'force push', when he accepts supernatural occurrences talked about in tbe Quran. I would love for him to clarify if he remembers though.
Click to expand...
It just dosent seem like he would go that far. I thought that he would argue wording of the verse so that he was "spiritually" pushing someone away from God, or perhaps its was a metaphor or something somewhat rational. If its really just a magic push, then yeah I dont know what to say.
 
M0nochromatic said:
It just dosent seem like he would go that far. I thought that he would argue wording of the verse so that he was "spiritually" pushing someone away from God, or perhaps its was a metaphor or something somewhat rational. If its really just a magic push, then yeah I dont know what to say.
Click to expand...

An all powerful invisible being that created all existence and has special feelings for human beings is already much farther than a force push :P
 
What a disappointing article.

Just when a lot people agree that the most accurate description of ISIS, is that they are actually a bunch of psychopaths, it wants to us to look at how real a version of Islam ISIS is. Would like to have at least seen a bit more depth. Fact check and the like.

Any sort of in depth analysis betrays * to my mind * ISI; and shows them as being against classical Islam. They pretty much ignore all the war fare constraints placed in the Shariah by classical Islam.

The irony being that had ISIS purely gone with medieval commentary most of their conduct is outside the remits of law - so they would pretty much judge themselves to be Muslim criminals e.g. AGAINST ISLAMIC PRINCIPLES. I think I agree somewhat with what Fraser Nelson had to say on the topic:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...1/Isils-barbarism-is-modern-not-medieval.html
 
ambientric said:
Perversely, part of me admires the ultra orthodox interpretation of a collection of fairy tales.

Anyone who believes in a magic Santa in the sky, is at best ignorant, at worst dangerous.

Perhaps, if any good is to come this, it will encourage more to question their belief in the supernatural and embrace atheism, built on humanism and rationality.

Of course, I don't believe that will happen...happy to put my hand up for relocating to the Atheist State of Rationality. (Though fortunately I already reside in New Zealand, religion gets put in its place here, quietly in the corner, looking embarrassed.)
Click to expand...

Wow you really went for it here. Filled out my entire "atheists trying to be proactive but actually being boring" bingo card in one go.

kneePat said:
Nope. They didn't. You're wrong. Your link mentions 'belief system' like within the first 10 words.
Click to expand...

Usually
when someone tries to learn things
they read more
than ten words.
 
Ashes said:
What a disappointing article.

Just when a lot people agree that the most accurate description of ISIS, is that they are actually a bunch of psychopaths, it wants to us to look at how real a version of Islam ISIS is. Would like to have at least seen a bit more depth. Fact check and the like.

Any sort of in depth analysis betrays * to my mind * ISI; and shows them as being against classical Islam. They pretty much ignore all the war fare constraints placed in the Shariah by classical Islam.

The irony being that had ISIS purely gone with medieval commentary most of their conduct is outside the remits of law - so they would pretty much judge themselves to be Muslim criminals e.g. AGAINST ISLAMIC PRINCIPLES. I think I agree somewhat with what Fraser Nelson had to say on the topic:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...1/Isils-barbarism-is-modern-not-medieval.html
Click to expand...

It's as simple as thinking would their actions be condoned by the Caliphates that have come and gone? Studying the history points to a resounding no.
 
curlyfriski said:
Speaking about the motivations of Islamic extremists, this story about the Danish shooter is an interesting if basic look at what might have led him to violence.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/02/17/world/europe/copenhagen-denmark-attacks.html?referrer=
Click to expand...

Oh wow.

Though perhaps not part of an established jihadist network, the young man was clearly not alone in his anger. On Monday, about a dozen young men, their faces covered by scarves, visited the spot where Mr. Hussein died and, declaring themselves his brothers, shouted “Allahu akbar,” or “God is great,” as they removed flowers laid in memorial, a ritual they said was contrary to Islamic teaching.

In place of the flowers, they left a printed leaflet on the ground that fulminated against what they described as Denmark’s double standards, noting that Mr. Hussein’s body had been left in a pool of blood when the body of the Jewish security guard killed at the synagogue had been quickly covered. This, the leaflet said, exposed promises of equality as a fraud and showed that “religion and background make a difference.
Click to expand...

Wallowing in that victimhood no matter what.
 
Dugna said:
Aren't you two muslims? You also seem to be making the same argument to defend Islam.
Click to expand...

Maninthemirror is saying ISIS is not Islamic.
Azih is saying either God or nobody can truly decide who is truly Muslim, either way, we don't really have a say in who is a true or cotton candy Muslim
 
Hyperactivity said:
Maninthemirror is saying ISIS is not Islamic.
Azih is saying either God or nobody can truly decide who is truly Muslim, either way, we don't really have a say in who is a true or cotton candy Muslim
Click to expand...

And don't forget me. Atheist of Muslim background who feels in the middle of both sides lol.
 
MisterFalcon said:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/02/17/world/europe/copenhagen-denmark-attacks.html?referrer=
Click to expand...
Oh wow.

Though perhaps not part of an established jihadist network, the young man was clearly not alone in his anger. On Monday, about a dozen young men, their faces covered by scarves, visited the spot where Mr. Hussein died and, declaring themselves his brothers, shouted “Allahu akbar,” or “God is great,” as they removed flowers laid in memorial, a ritual they said was contrary to Islamic teaching.

In place of the flowers, they left a printed leaflet on the ground that fulminated against what they described as Denmark’s double standards, noting that Mr. Hussein’s body had been left in a pool of blood when the body of the Jewish security guard killed at the synagogue had been quickly covered. This, the leaflet said, exposed promises of equality as a fraud and showed that “religion and background make a difference.
Click to expand...

Wallowing in that victimhood no matter what.
Click to expand...

Just mindblowing... I mean who cares if one is a murdering terrorist scumbag and the other an innocent victim, right... gotta focus on what really matters, which is that this is another case of Muslims being oppressed.
 
I find it funny how it says ISIS are Islami, ISIS are breaking every rule in Islam when it comes to their so called "jihad".

These so called people who claim to know more about Islam then Muslims should go find a Muslim and ask him or her what Islam says about killing innocent people and is it justified etc instead of reading from people who claim to know more about a religion then the followers of that certain religion.
 
Sutton Dagger said:
No I don't, but I'm sure he remembers what I'm talking about, it was a while ago. What about his posts makes you think he wouldn't accept a 'force push', when he accepts supernatural occurrences talked about in tbe Quran. I would love for him to clarify if he remembers though.
Click to expand...

there was also that thing he explained about how a "light tap to the body can save a marriage" (I.e. justified wife beating).

honestly I wish / hope most Muslims are like our mirror man, as he at least has gone to incredible cognitive lengths to make what read like the nastier parts of the faith's writings into nice little Bon mots. but as you've seen, he's impossible to pin down, he just deflects all day with flurries of quotes or straight up doesn't answer. (I'm still waiting.)
 
Sutton Dagger said:
Dude, I remember a conversation with you where you tried to claim that Mohammed used in essence a 'force push' and thus never physically pushed someone. You went to great lengths to prove Mohammed never used violence and was therefore pure/Holy.
Click to expand...

Forced push? Please remind me of that qoute if you are now targeting my views now (this will be good)
 
Oh boy, he's up now. maninthemirror...

Why should they enlighten you when we know your answers already, at length.

The point you are missing is not that we want to say ISIS is any more Muslim, or any truer Muslim, than you. They just aren't any less so either. We're not trying to boost up these monsters. But you have to look at it from the outside, if you can. When the books say, at certain points, Kill Someone, and you say No You Read Them Wrong, or No a That Is An Allegory In This Specific Case, it looks like a very weak defence to a nonbeliever, because you are just as arbitrary as they are, despite your repeated protestations to the contrary. I suppose it's because you think you are defending Divine Truth but I still can't understand how you think you're just so fucking right about all of this.

I prefer your interpretation, of course, vastly. But even better to lay the whole thing aside, of course, IMO.

The quote from the article about cotton candy views is you to a T my friend. Even the fact that you insist on calling them Daesh - a term invented by another embarrassed lefty, Hollande - speaks to your "embarrassment", you can't call them Islamic.
 
ambientric said:
Perversely, part of me admires the ultra orthodox interpretation of a collection of fairy tales.

Anyone who believes in a magic Santa in the sky, is at best ignorant, at worst dangerous.

Perhaps, if any good is to come this, it will encourage more to question their belief in the supernatural and embrace atheism, built on humanism and rationality.

Of course, I don't believe that will happen...happy to put my hand up for relocating to the Atheist State of Rationality. (Though fortunately I already reside in New Zealand, religion gets put in its place here, quietly in the corner, looking embarrassed.)
Click to expand...

Corronchilejano said:
Nothing quite as humanist as looking down on fellow humans.
Click to expand...


Yeah, talk about self righteous, condescending pontification.

Almost seemed like a religious rant.


Both sides are boring as fuck, I ignore them both.
 
Jburton said:
Yeah, talk about self righteous, condescending pontification.

Almost seemed like a religious rant.


Both sides are boring as fuck, I ignore them both.
Click to expand...

It's interesting when people bring in nuanced posts, but it's usually the same old tired tropes. Although for someone new to such arguments it can be enlightening and interesting to read them for the first time.

I remember back when I was a believing Muslim and defending Islam on Digg, it was through Digg that I discovered Carl Sagan and ended up becoming an Atheist and then on the opposite side of the arguments. Nowadays I'm just in it for the nuanced posts, and not looking at it as a black and white battle to the death, but a gray dialogue.
 
Ashes said:
What a disappointing article.

Just when a lot people agree that the most accurate description of ISIS, is that they are actually a bunch of psychopaths, it wants to us to look at how real a version of Islam ISIS is. Would like to have at least seen a bit more depth. Fact check and the like.

Any sort of in depth analysis betrays * to my mind * ISI; and shows them as being against classical Islam. They pretty much ignore all the war fare constraints placed in the Shariah by classical Islam.

The irony being that had ISIS purely gone with medieval commentary most of their conduct is outside the remits of law - so they would pretty much judge themselves to be Muslim criminals e.g. AGAINST ISLAMIC PRINCIPLES. I think I agree somewhat with what Fraser Nelson had to say on the topic:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...1/Isils-barbarism-is-modern-not-medieval.html
Click to expand...

Sorry that reality does not fit your pre-conceived narrative.
 
soul creator said:
I think the article's point is that everyone who self-identifies is a "real" member of their religion, from good to evil, because it's not like there's some objective, neutral, rational standard to judge what's "true" when it comes to most religious claims in the first place.
Click to expand...
Not according to Interceptor, Haykel, Harris et all. According to Harris I'm not a 'real muslim', According to Haykel I have a 'cotton candy view of Islam'. That's clear bullshit and it needs to be called out.
 
Owed T'Alex said:
It's right there. The author does not call anybody a cotton-candy muslim, whatever that would even be. The view is cotton-candy, not the the muslims.
Click to expand...

If a Muslim has a 'cotton candy view of Islam' then they obviously don't have a correct view of the faith with Haykel's clear implication being that ISIS types have a better view of Islam than I, for example, do. Sam Harris has said the same kind of thing and Interceptor right here is saying the same kind of thing. This is all dangerous bullshit and it needs to be called out.

Edit: Simon never used it before. Will do so in the future, sorry for the spam.
 
Azih said:
This is bullshit. You don't' get to decide whether Mitm has cotton candy views on Islam or not.
Click to expand...

Sure I do. He seems peaceful, doesn't wish death upon me for not believing, so I'm cool with him. That is a cotton candy view compared to the flaming death parade that is ISIS/Daesh. They both claim to follow the same thing, honestly the details of their disagreement are academic, not to dismiss it lightly, but I'm approaching from the outside as a westerner, and really only care about actual, physical outcomes ultimately. Understanding context helps of course.

To be very clear I'm not really calling him lesser in any way, he just has a relentlessly optimistic view on this topic, and likes to defend it against us heathens, for whatever reason. /2¢
 
Nerfgun said:
That is a cotton candy view compared to the flaming death parade that is ISIS/Daesh.
Click to expand...
Cotton candy, when applied to a point of view means insubstantial, unreal, not intellectually sound for more than it does 'optimistic' especially when it's backed up by comments like
article said:
<Embarassed and politically correct cotton candy muslims neglect> what their religion has historically and legally required... He regards the claim that the Islamic State has distorted the texts of Islam as preposterous, sustainable only through willful ignorance.
Click to expand...
There's also the wider context where people like Sam Harris calls peaceful Muslims "Nominal Muslims... not serious about their faith" and people like Interceptor in this very thread doing the same thing.
 
Nerfgun said:
Oh boy, he's up now. maninthemirror...

Why should they enlighten you when we know your answers already, at length.

The point you are missing is not that we want to say ISIS is any more Muslim, or any truer Muslim, than you. They just aren't any less so either. We're not trying to boost up these monsters. But you have to look at it from the outside, if you can. When the books say, at certain points, Kill Someone, and you say No You Read Them Wrong, or No a That Is An Allegory In This Specific Case, it looks like a very weak defence to a nonbeliever, because you are just as arbitrary as they are, despite your repeated protestations to the contrary. I suppose it's because you think you are defending Divine Truth but I still can't understand how you think you're just so fucking right about all of this.

I prefer your interpretation, of course, vastly. But even better to lay the whole thing aside, of course, IMO.

The quote from the article about cotton candy views is you to a T my friend. Even the fact that you insist on calling them Daesh - a term invented by another embarrassed lefty, Hollande - speaks to your "embarrassment", you can't call them Islamic.
Click to expand...

I think looking from the outside to the inside, You view as the ideology itself as violent in the same view as Daesh views the ideology as violent. Just because you, looking from the outside, view it as violent doesn't make it violent when those on the inside, the muslims who are not violent and actually practice the faith, dont view the ideology of Islam as violent.

If you want a peaceful ideology to exist alongside you, you would have to push forward as the majority of the ideology say, the peaceful ideology and downplay the violent ideas created by the fundamentalists. That is only if you want the peaceful ideology to exist along with your own lack of belief.

If however you dont even want any ideology to exist, then you can continue what you are doing is trying to downplay the entire ideology to not only remove the violent ideas but the good believers beliefs, at which point you only want the world to have your view and nothing but your view even if it means removing the good believers belief while you kill 2 birds with 1 stone and (think of the two birds as the only 2 birds remaining of a species, one being peaceful, one being violent)
 
Maninthemirror said:
the large tribes embraced Islam more than they were conquered. Orientalist revisionist history would tell you its impossible islam would be accepted by them as who in their right mind would accept Islam voluntarily. if you remove the inherent bias you would realise many tribes accepted islam voluntarily and became part of the Muslims at that time
Click to expand...
You just proved the professor right. Cotton candy-eyed view confirmed.
 
Nerfgun said:
Sure I do. He seems peaceful, doesn't wish death upon me for not believing, so I'm cool with him. That is a cotton candy view compared to the flaming death parade that is ISIS/Daesh. They both claim to follow the same thing, honestly the details of their disagreement are academic, not to dismiss it lightly, but I'm approaching from the outside as a westerner, and really only care about actual, physical outcomes ultimately. Understanding context helps of course.

To be very clear I'm not really calling him lesser in any way, he just has a relentlessly optimistic view on this topic, and likes to defend it against us heathens, for whatever reason. /2¢
Click to expand...
Maninthemirror despite being dogpiled has posted so many times explaining his viewpoint with links and answers, and his own explanations. Why are you feeling the need to downplay his contributions by brushing his views as cotton candy? Is it from your own sense of arrogance and inability to cede a point? You have parroted the same thing over and over and frankly its a little ridiculous at this point. Yeah everyone in this forum knows Daesh claims to follow Islam and Quran which you have repeatedly reminded us. But you are unwilling to see beyond that claim, not for one second.

Sorry for the rant. Its tiring to read this thread.
 
Maninthemirror said:
well the Quran is pretttyyyy clear about it


Chapter 88
Verse 22-27

22- You are only an Admonisher, nothing else
23- You are not appointed a ruler over people
24- Whoever turns away and disbelieves (knowingly without coercion of facts)
25- Allah alone will punish him with the greatest punishment (hell)
26- They will get their judgement on judgement day
27- It is up to God to make them accountable


These verses are pretty clear cut and there are many others like it

the laws in muslim countries are out of thin air. they are Islam by name only, not by Action
Click to expand...
So your defense is: "No no, there is no death for apostasy! Nothing so barbaric as that! Islam is just! You'll merely burn in the infinite flames of hell for all eternity! That's all that will happen to you! It's all good!" Are you actually defending this and trying to spin it in a positive light?
 
PeteZaTheHutt said:
So your defense is: "No no, there is no death for apostasy! Nothing so barbaric as that! Islam is just! You'll merely burn in the infinite flames of hell for all eternity! That's all that will happen to you! It's all good!" Are you actually defending this and trying to spin it in a positive light?
Click to expand...

actually looking at it sanely, Daesh are trying to spin it in a negative light. why won't you consider that possibility considering they are hated by MOST muslims globally.

And realistically, if you are not part of the faith, i would assume you wont believe in the afterlife, and if you dont believe in the afterlife, do you care what happens after you die considering you think it ends there for you. so its naive to think you would be offended by that. You can only be offended if you do believe in an afterlife.

so in reality my defense is, Anyone if they want can become can apostate and no human power can do anything to stop you, mock you or ridicule you, hurt you or kill you on a religious basis. You made your choice that THIS life is it so enjoy it but if you are going to complain about the afterlife, thats just being naive
 
PeteZaTheHutt said:
So your defense is: "No no, there is no death for apostasy! Nothing so barbaric as that! Islam is just! You'll merely burn in the infinite flames of hell for all eternity! That's all that will happen to you! It's all good!" Are you actually defending this and trying to spin it in a positive light?
Click to expand...
Lol dude. Why do you care if you are thrown in molten lava or in garden of eden after death when you dismiss the whole thing as fake? Its faith. You cant have your cake and eat it.
 
Maninthemirror said:
actually looking at it sanely, Daesh are trying to spin it in a negative light. why won't you consider that possibility considering they are hated by MOST muslims globally.

And realistically, if you are not part of the faith, i would assume you wont believe in the afterlife, and if you dont believe in the afterlife, do you care what happens after you die considering you think it ends there for you. so its naive to think you would be offended by that. You can only be offended if you do believe in an afterlife.

so in reality my defense is, Anyone if they want can become can apostate and no human power can do anything to stop you, mock you or ridicule you. You made your choice that THIS life is it so enjoy it but if you are going to complain about the afterlife, thats just being naive
Click to expand...

I think most atheists have a hard time taking seriously any God that says "you'll suffer eternally for joining the wrong club even though I could at any time with my crazy wizard powers prove beyond any reasonable doubt that this one is the real deal"

That's just my .02
 
Simon Belmont said:
I think most atheists have a hard time taking seriously any God that says "you'll suffer eternally for joining the wrong club even though I could at any time with my crazy wizard powers prove beyond any reasonable doubt that this one is the real deal"

That's just my .02
Click to expand...

well thats true as an atheist you wouldnt take any belief in a living unseen God seriously but that is a difference between a faithful who takes the belief in a living unseen God seriously and the atheist who just doesn't because reasons which to him are valid just like for the faithful believing due to reasons which are valid for him
 
abzyshaid said:
I find it funny how it says ISIS are Islami, ISIS are breaking every rule in Islam when it comes to their so called "jihad".

These so called people who claim to know more about Islam then Muslims should go find a Muslim and ask him or her what Islam says about killing innocent people and is it justified etc instead of reading from people who claim to know more about a religion then the followers of that certain religion.
Click to expand...

Well hopefully the Muslim world will learn something that western nations figured out a while back....you can't have government by religion because you will NEVER get everyone to agree on how the religion should be interpreted. The IS folks think you are breaking every rule in Islam.
 
Azih said:
Good Lord, we've got a whole forum full of people fully on side with Daesh/ISIS when they say they're the true muslims while peaceful muslims "aren't really muslim".

So the bastards who lined up 21 people and killed them are the true muslims while I'm not. Got it.
Click to expand...
You need to stop with the persecution crap. Nobody is saying this. They are saying that ISIS are Muslims who interpret the Quran differently than you (also a Muslim) do. Your ideology and ISIS's ideology are both rooted in the Quran. You have done the correct and moral thing by ignoring the barbaric and now-irrelevant aspects of its tenets while ISIS is enacting a strict literal interpretation. That you ignore the barbaric aspects of the Quran (rightfully, morally and admirably so as any good human being should) is what is being referred to as a cotton candy view.
 
Maninthemirror said:
How could he be moderate if he ignores a main Quranic verse.

There is no compulsion in matters of faith ? Who said he was a moderate?
Click to expand...

I don't think you can be a religious moderate without ignoring several key points of your religion's text. Moderate Christians, for example, do not believe God created the Earth in literally seven days.
Probably.
 
Blader said:
I don't think you can be a religious moderate without ignoring several key points of your religion's text. Moderate Christians, for example, do not believe God created the Earth in literally seven days.
Probably.
Click to expand...

enter Maninthemirror and a Billion plus others like him who dont ignore verses of their religious text while being adherents to their faith. You don;t know where I stand on reading for you to assume that most muslims skip verses while practicing faith. they don't.

there is only ONE reason why you would think that, that you think the verses we skip are what is violent which is being judgemental when MOST muslims have an entirely different take when it comes to defending Mecca THEN as opposed to Daesh saying Killing offensively NOW
 
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