DeaconKnowledge
Member
Only thing I have to add was Harry was miscast too. First /= best.
What was so bad about Spider-Man 3? (Decade old spoilers inside?)
- Thread starter daTRUballin
- Start date
Only thing I have to add was Harry was miscast too. First /= best.
No one was able to explain to me why MJ had to break up with Peter. I know Harry was like "break his heart or I'll kill him," but he's FUCKIN SPIDER-MAN. He already beat Harry once while trying to keep track of a wedding ring, MJ. What was the problem with telling him "Oh hey, Harry told me he was gonna kill you if I didn't break up with you. You might want to get the drop on him first," which he does anyway, mind you, making that entirely pointless.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
He really brought a sense of magic to the Raimi films.
Honestly the movie is so close to being great with just a few small changes.
Harry's amnesia? Just shift Harry's realization that he can't fight Peter physically so he has to 'attack his heart' to be after the fight. He already starts to drive quite a wedge between Peter and MJ in his amnesia state anyways, and this way he's doing it intentionally.
Uncle Ben retcon? Just have it that black suit Spider-Man is completely unsympathetic to Sandman's daughter and that's enough to have them fight.
Peter dancing? Keep it cuz it's awesome.
The butler exposition? Just have Harry come to his senses after he gets a grenade tossed at his face.
Now we have a 8.5/10 movie
Harry's amnesia? Just shift Harry's realization that he can't fight Peter physically so he has to 'attack his heart' to be after the fight. He already starts to drive quite a wedge between Peter and MJ in his amnesia state anyways, and this way he's doing it intentionally.
Uncle Ben retcon? Just have it that black suit Spider-Man is completely unsympathetic to Sandman's daughter and that's enough to have them fight.
Peter dancing? Keep it cuz it's awesome.
The butler exposition? Just have Harry come to his senses after he gets a grenade tossed at his face.
Now we have a 8.5/10 movie
and Danny Elfman, don't you dare leave out Danny Elfman again, phanphare.
ugh fine!
The tone of the film is all over the place. The film is overstuffed with characters and plotlines that don't get enough time to really develop. The film is full of conveniences and contrivances to get characters out of the film for a while so they can introduce a new plotline or character. It makes for a sloppy mess of a film.
Peter and Mary Jane relationship/MJ's failing career in acting.
- Gwen Stacy is introduced just to throw a wrench in the relationship. Her kiss with Spider-Man is terrible, and I don't buy for one second that Peter would ever do something like that. He didn't even have the black suit at this point.
- Mary Jane's character is terrible in this. "it's not about you, it's about me". She whines and complains the whole movie about her failing acting career, and every time Peter tries to comfort her, she throws it in his face.
- Harry somehow convinces her to break up with Peter or he will kill him? Did MJ forget that Peter is Spider-Man?
Peter and Harry relationship
- Harry uses the serum to get superpowers and comes after Peter as the New Goblin. Peter beats Harry. Harry conveniently gets amnesia and forgets his feud with Peter. Why? Because there isn't enough time in the film to properly flesh out this story.
- Harry conveniently remembers everything when the film remembers he is an important part of the story.
- Harry only decides to help Peter save MJ when his butler reveals vital information about his father that he's been sitting on for years.
Flint Marko/Sandman/Uncle Ben killer retcon
- Flint Marko is a criminal who only commits crimes to save his sick daughter.
- Revealed to be the true killer of Uncle Ben only because in this series of films, all the villains have to have a personal connection to Peter. Also, because the theme of the movie is forgiveness, Peter needs someone to forgive by the end of the film.
- Is defeated by Spider-Man and disappears for a good chunk of the movie just because we don't have enough time in the film to properly flesh out this story.
- Reappears and agrees to help Venom KILL Spider-Man for no reason. I thought he only wanted money for his daughter? He never expressed interest in murder.
- Is forgiven by Peter and flies away, never answering for any of his crimes.
Black Suit
- Crashes to Earth conveniently where Peter and MJ are hanging out.
- Emo Peter
- "Evil Peter montage" the tone is all wrong. The black suit is played for laughs.
- The Jazz Club Scene. Do I need to say anything?
Eddie Brock/Venom
- Topher Grace.
- Eddie Brock is barely in the film.
- His reasons for begging god to KILL Peter are not strong at all.
- How does he know about Flint Marko's daughter?
- "I like being bad. It makes me happy."
- Topher Grace.
Peter and Mary Jane relationship/MJ's failing career in acting.
- Gwen Stacy is introduced just to throw a wrench in the relationship. Her kiss with Spider-Man is terrible, and I don't buy for one second that Peter would ever do something like that. He didn't even have the black suit at this point.
- Mary Jane's character is terrible in this. "it's not about you, it's about me". She whines and complains the whole movie about her failing acting career, and every time Peter tries to comfort her, she throws it in his face.
- Harry somehow convinces her to break up with Peter or he will kill him? Did MJ forget that Peter is Spider-Man?
Peter and Harry relationship
- Harry uses the serum to get superpowers and comes after Peter as the New Goblin. Peter beats Harry. Harry conveniently gets amnesia and forgets his feud with Peter. Why? Because there isn't enough time in the film to properly flesh out this story.
- Harry conveniently remembers everything when the film remembers he is an important part of the story.
- Harry only decides to help Peter save MJ when his butler reveals vital information about his father that he's been sitting on for years.
Flint Marko/Sandman/Uncle Ben killer retcon
- Flint Marko is a criminal who only commits crimes to save his sick daughter.
- Revealed to be the true killer of Uncle Ben only because in this series of films, all the villains have to have a personal connection to Peter. Also, because the theme of the movie is forgiveness, Peter needs someone to forgive by the end of the film.
- Is defeated by Spider-Man and disappears for a good chunk of the movie just because we don't have enough time in the film to properly flesh out this story.
- Reappears and agrees to help Venom KILL Spider-Man for no reason. I thought he only wanted money for his daughter? He never expressed interest in murder.
- Is forgiven by Peter and flies away, never answering for any of his crimes.
Black Suit
- Crashes to Earth conveniently where Peter and MJ are hanging out.
- Emo Peter
- "Evil Peter montage" the tone is all wrong. The black suit is played for laughs.
- The Jazz Club Scene. Do I need to say anything?
Eddie Brock/Venom
- Topher Grace.
- Eddie Brock is barely in the film.
- His reasons for begging god to KILL Peter are not strong at all.
- How does he know about Flint Marko's daughter?
- "I like being bad. It makes me happy."
- Topher Grace.
Inferno313
Banned
People who hate the first two Raimi films can't be reasoned with.
The movie has some really bizarre tonal changes, going from goofy moments to dark shit in a few seconds flat, which makes it difficult to watch. You feel whiplash from not knowing whether to laugh or cry. Raimi had been pretty good at maintaining the balance before then, but the "dark side of Peter Parker" subplot goes in two extreme directions (at once) that are difficult to reconcile.
There's some extremely contrived writing, from the retcon of Sandman being Uncle Ben's killer to the Harry amnesia subplot to the symbiote landing right next to Peter (when there are a million other ways that symbiote could have come into play). It almost feels like a soap opera the way the plot contorts itself to get to the places it's supposed to go.
Couple that with the fact that the characters mostly act like terrible spoiled brats and nobody comes out looking good by the end. It left an awful taste in your mouth by the end.
There's some extremely contrived writing, from the retcon of Sandman being Uncle Ben's killer to the Harry amnesia subplot to the symbiote landing right next to Peter (when there are a million other ways that symbiote could have come into play). It almost feels like a soap opera the way the plot contorts itself to get to the places it's supposed to go.
Couple that with the fact that the characters mostly act like terrible spoiled brats and nobody comes out looking good by the end. It left an awful taste in your mouth by the end.
That is legitimately painful to watch. Mediocre CGI and compositing aside the camera is like straight up inside their assholes 90% of the time. It's an absolute mess of camera work and editing that provide no sense of weight to anything or feeling they're actually in those locations or what is actually happening.
THANK YOU
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
If Tobey isn't Spider-Man then you have no Spider-Man 3.
I'm rewatching 1-3 right now.
LOL @ Peter and Mary Jane being miscast. In my memory I imagined the love scenes to be cringy, overly sentimental and overacted. Watching them as an adult, now I feel they have emotional resonance and overall the main cast (Peter, MJ, Harry) have fantastic chemistry and are believable as friends. Peter and MJ are always putting a lot of emotion into their dialogue and physical acting. They give you more than what you typically see in the marvel films now, which seem to focus a bit more on cleverness with the dialogue than emotion/heart. That's how I see it at least.
Also, Peter, MJ and Harry were criticized for being casted with actors who looked too old, right? I'm not bothered by this because a) even though they were pushing late 20's in age, they all kinda look around 20-24, which is fine because that's only slightly older than what they should be and b) Peter, for one, was rendered (intentionally or not) to look 35-40 in the comics lol, so in the end it's still an improvement. Look at this pic and tell me McGuire doesn't look younger than comic Peter:
But were there miscasts? Yes. Venom was a huge missed opportunity. Raimi already gave up on him as a character, that much is clear when you see SM3. But you know how you fix that easily? Just make him the monster that he is supposed to be. In the comics what makes venom memorable is his sheer formidability. That's ALL they had to get right to bring on a satisfying climax to the Symbiote subplot while doing the character justice. Just make him look more like the buff monster that he is and less like... Foreman from that 70's show. Holy shit, what a mismatch. Oh well. Props to Topher Grace for landing the role, he must have some serious charm to have gotten it. Either that or Raimi just wanted to troll Venom fans, which is kinda funny and would also make sense, but undermines the film.
LOL @ Peter and Mary Jane being miscast. In my memory I imagined the love scenes to be cringy, overly sentimental and overacted. Watching them as an adult, now I feel they have emotional resonance and overall the main cast (Peter, MJ, Harry) have fantastic chemistry and are believable as friends. Peter and MJ are always putting a lot of emotion into their dialogue and physical acting. They give you more than what you typically see in the marvel films now, which seem to focus a bit more on cleverness with the dialogue than emotion/heart. That's how I see it at least.
Also, Peter, MJ and Harry were criticized for being casted with actors who looked too old, right? I'm not bothered by this because a) even though they were pushing late 20's in age, they all kinda look around 20-24, which is fine because that's only slightly older than what they should be and b) Peter, for one, was rendered (intentionally or not) to look 35-40 in the comics lol, so in the end it's still an improvement. Look at this pic and tell me McGuire doesn't look younger than comic Peter:
But were there miscasts? Yes. Venom was a huge missed opportunity. Raimi already gave up on him as a character, that much is clear when you see SM3. But you know how you fix that easily? Just make him the monster that he is supposed to be. In the comics what makes venom memorable is his sheer formidability. That's ALL they had to get right to bring on a satisfying climax to the Symbiote subplot while doing the character justice. Just make him look more like the buff monster that he is and less like... Foreman from that 70's show. Holy shit, what a mismatch. Oh well. Props to Topher Grace for landing the role, he must have some serious charm to have gotten it. Either that or Raimi just wanted to troll Venom fans, which is kinda funny and would also make sense, but undermines the film.
My Spiderman.
Pussy. Posse.
EroticSushi
Member
Hold up...they released a 3.1? Thought they only did an extended cut for 2?
Fancyarcher
Member
It's problem is that it tries to do too much. If they just had abandoned the venom subplot altogether or at least left it for the purposed fourth film, it may have worked. As it is, the film we got is a mess, though it's far more interesting then most CBM movies out there I'll admit. Great score as well.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
It should have focused on Sandman, like it was for like 75% of the movie.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
All you need to know.
Best part of the movie.
Real answer, they simply tried to squeeze too much into it. They should have taken the subject matter and spread it out to two films. Save all the Venom stuff for Spider-Man 4.
Boombloxer
Member
Rendered Uncle Bens death as pointless.
That was that.
That was that.
Pretty much all of this.
Back when Stan Lee banter really did it for me. Magical window between 1965-1968. The dialogue is top-notch.
Almost all of the conflicts are started by nonsense or resolved by them.
Peter kissing Gwen like that.
The amnesia thing.
MJ playing along with Harry's schemes even though the target of those schemes is a fucking superhuman.
A butler resolving a trilogy's worth of character development for Harry.
Uncle Ben retcon.
Nothing works beyond some of the sillier moments.
Peter kissing Gwen like that.
The amnesia thing.
MJ playing along with Harry's schemes even though the target of those schemes is a fucking superhuman.
A butler resolving a trilogy's worth of character development for Harry.
Uncle Ben retcon.
Nothing works beyond some of the sillier moments.
Lee is the dialogue master. The older comics are considered bland compared to the attempts at being edgier that defined the McFarlane era (from late 80's through the 90's, when McFarlane was basically the Stan Lee of that time). In truth, one might never know how insanely high level and ahead of his time he is until he is seen brainstorming with other, more recent, highly successful comic artists.
Permanently A
Junior Member
Haha, I went to see this scene on youtube again, and then the scene after Spidey fights Sandman and after Sandman gets washed a way he says in the most overtly serious and edgy tone "good riddance"
I don't think I would have been able to hold in my laughter had I seen this in theatres
He was the primary villain, but Peter's arch is all connected to the black suite and how it changes him. What I don't understand is...what movie was Raimi trying to make without Venom? The Symbiote stuff seems like a main focus of Spidey 3, down to the black suit being on all the promo material for the film. And you can't have the suit without the payoff that is Venom, so was he just gonna end the movie on a cliffhanger with intentions of setting Venom up for the sequels that were planned?
Real talk though, this is good stuff. Not better than the train fight, but still fun tk watch.
I think it is a decent movie, but a disappointment for the franchise.
I actually like the more ridiculous stuff like the dance numbers and such.
Where it fails is with developing the villains. They completely fucked up Venom. Instead of actually going through with explaining the origin of Venom or the symbiotie which was hinted at in Spider-Man 2 with Mary Janes astronaut boyfriend going into space, a random meteor happens to fall right near Peter Parker during a romantic moment.
Sandman was also underdeveloped. The new Green Goblin was the only compelling villian because he had three films of development.
So as silly and unlikeable as Peter Parker was, it was the lack of development of the villains that really kills it. And from what I have read that is not on Raimi so much as it was on rushing the film.
I actually like the more ridiculous stuff like the dance numbers and such.
Where it fails is with developing the villains. They completely fucked up Venom. Instead of actually going through with explaining the origin of Venom or the symbiotie which was hinted at in Spider-Man 2 with Mary Janes astronaut boyfriend going into space, a random meteor happens to fall right near Peter Parker during a romantic moment.
Sandman was also underdeveloped. The new Green Goblin was the only compelling villian because he had three films of development.
So as silly and unlikeable as Peter Parker was, it was the lack of development of the villains that really kills it. And from what I have read that is not on Raimi so much as it was on rushing the film.
It tried to do too much. Studio meddling resulted in too many villains, none of which got satisfying story arcs.
Had Sony not insisted on Venom, the movie would have been fine with just sandman and Goblin 2. Riami had even teased Venom in spidey 2, with JJJ's son set to be the first man on Mars. Obviously that was a future setup for him to return with it.
IMO "evil" Parker on spidey 3 was fine though, because him being a douche was kinda the point.
Edit: lol, C4lukins, you and I get it.
Had Sony not insisted on Venom, the movie would have been fine with just sandman and Goblin 2. Riami had even teased Venom in spidey 2, with JJJ's son set to be the first man on Mars. Obviously that was a future setup for him to return with it.
IMO "evil" Parker on spidey 3 was fine though, because him being a douche was kinda the point.
Edit: lol, C4lukins, you and I get it.
I rewatched 2 Last night Still awesome infact still one of the best Sequels to a Comic Book Movie, alongside Blade 2, The Dark Knight and Winter Soldier.
I loved that Sam Raimi put in that Horror style sequence where the surgergy to remove Ocks Tentacles goes wrong and the one Surgeon (I think it is John Landis right?) grabs the fucking Chainsaw and then of course later Bruce Campbell & Ted Raimi shows up, how about "Doctor Strange" Ted says when Thinking up names for Doc Ock. All those Easter Eggs make my day.
3 is good, a bit cramped with everything going on,but i don't Hate it.
I loved that Sam Raimi put in that Horror style sequence where the surgergy to remove Ocks Tentacles goes wrong and the one Surgeon (I think it is John Landis right?) grabs the fucking Chainsaw and then of course later Bruce Campbell & Ted Raimi shows up, how about "Doctor Strange" Ted says when Thinking up names for Doc Ock. All those Easter Eggs make my day.
3 is good, a bit cramped with everything going on,but i don't Hate it.
Had Riami been allowed to hold off on Venom I am sure he'd have done him justice. Have Spidey 4 be Venom and Vulture.
Speaking of, it is a fucking CRIME we never got John Malkovich's take on Vulture.
I always thought to myself that the perfect way to bring in Venom would have been to have Eddie Brock as a minor supporting character in 2 and 3, and then bring him in as the main villain in 4 so we have all that buildup as to why he resented Parker so much. Condensing all of that shit into 3 with an already overloaded cast of characters was a horrible decision, and then on top of that just failing so badly with the casting and Venom himself... ugh.
Yep. That would have been fine.
Fucking Sony. It's why I don't trust the new Venom movie not to be shit.
TimFL
Member
What makes the whole Venom + Sandman teamup in the end even more mind boggling is how ggly the movie game adaption handled it:
In the game Venom kidnaps Sandmans daughter and forces him to help him with Spider-Man... absolutely mind boggling how the game adaption came up with a better excuse for Sandman doing a 180° turn.
In the game Venom kidnaps Sandmans daughter and forces him to help him with Spider-Man... absolutely mind boggling how the game adaption came up with a better excuse for Sandman doing a 180° turn.
Just came out in a trilogy set.
It's not called an extended cut, just 'Editor's Cut'. There are afew extra little bits and things have been shuffled around. But some stuff has also been outright removed. Makes it a stronger movie.
Fast Forward
Member
Movie has hundred different problem even before the death of venom, not the least of which there's way too many sub-plots/characters. There's a reason people often cite this movie, along with X-Men 3, as a prime example of superhero flick having too many sub-plots/characters.
And there's just a lot of stupid things, like Peter kissing Gwen. Out of character AF. He's not even wearing the black suit yet.
MJ goes along with Harry's scheme, even though, ya know, her boyfriend is fucking Spider-Man. And yet, later when Harry dies, because the plot requires MJ to be sad she is, even though it makes no sense for her to be sad because of the earlier events.
Brock/Venon was miscasted. Plus, Brock's motivations are ridiculous. Peter gets him fired, and Brock INSTANTLY jumps to wanting to murder him? What the fuck. Oh, and gotta "love" how Brock takes Peter's "get religion" line to heart.
Lot hammy acting moments from James Franco. Granted, I enjoy it a ironic way, but otherwise, in the middle of a serious movie, not the best move.
Also
-Worst butler ever
-Uncle Ben Retcon feels really forced
-Cheesy news reports
-Emo Peter
And there's just a lot of stupid things, like Peter kissing Gwen. Out of character AF. He's not even wearing the black suit yet.
MJ goes along with Harry's scheme, even though, ya know, her boyfriend is fucking Spider-Man. And yet, later when Harry dies, because the plot requires MJ to be sad she is, even though it makes no sense for her to be sad because of the earlier events.
Brock/Venon was miscasted. Plus, Brock's motivations are ridiculous. Peter gets him fired, and Brock INSTANTLY jumps to wanting to murder him? What the fuck. Oh, and gotta "love" how Brock takes Peter's "get religion" line to heart.
Lot hammy acting moments from James Franco. Granted, I enjoy it a ironic way, but otherwise, in the middle of a serious movie, not the best move.
Also
-Worst butler ever
-Uncle Ben Retcon feels really forced
-Cheesy news reports
-Emo Peter
JimiNutz
Banned
Nothing wrong with being bad. It's so bad that it's good. Now, DIG ON THIS!
Superficial of me I know, but something about Tobey's chin/neck fat flapping around in that gif makes me uncomfortable. Spider-Man should not be out of shape like that. Tobey gave zero fucks by movie 3.
Gwen is hot though so it's not all bad.
Fast Forward
Member
Probably not have the Symbiote at all as Rami was not a fan of Venom.
Even so, even at the time, I thought that's what they should have done. Have 3 be the set up with Blacksuit Spidey, and have 4 feature Venom.
Scrooge McDuck
Member
The comments make it seems like Stan Lee was verbally destroying artists who don't know what they're doing, but I got the impression that they're in on the joke and was intentionally making a bad character? I mean, his name is Overkill and the artists said stuff like "we're giving him the biggest shoulder pads ever existed."
Lol, no, that was a real character that Todd used in his Spawn comics.
Even if they were pretending to be pwned (which is unlikely), Lee's criticisms were pretty spot-on for the McFarlane/Liefield 90's style character design. That's really how they approached the art in their books, so there was a lot of truth to Lee's criticism regardless if they were playing it up for the camera. I'm a huge fan of Spawn too, but Stan Lee is understandably on another level. He's Stan Lee.
FlutterPuffs
Member
This scene is incredible when taken out of context.
All you need to know.
Scrooge McDuck
Member
Ooo, thanks for the explanation! So those two artists are actually Todd McFarlane and Rob Liefeld? I don't really read US comic books but I'm somewhat familiar with the "edgy 90s" criticism as well as Liefeld's... anatomical problems. That certainly makes Stan Lee's "I want you to tighten those feet" remark extra funny, haha.Lol, no, that was a real character that Todd used in his Spawn comics.
Even if they were pretending to be pwned (which is unlikely), Lee's criticisms were pretty spot-on for the McFarlane/Liefield 90's style character design. That's really how they approached the art in their books, so there was a lot of truth to Lee's criticism regardless if they were playing it up for the camera. I'm a huge fan of Spawn too, but Stan Lee is understandably on another level. He's Stan Lee.
Also, "OVERT-KILL! In whispered voice: some call him 'Overkill.' It has to do with his tendency to go beyond necessary means."
Man.