Support NeoGAF

[Dice]

So whenever I see a new game these days I always think the same thing: "Wow that looks great... too bad the animation sucks"

Specifically today I saw a video of The Warriors (which had ok movement but was choppy) and some basketball game from EA (where the player looked lifeless, like a robot with an inflexible spine).

I've seen some games with good animation, like Jak & Daxter or something. Do games need to move in a cartoony manner to look "alive"? Every game that seems to attempt realism comes off looking either good but choppy or smooth but robotic/drone-ish.

I think for really good animation they'd need some sort of advanced ragdoll physics. Because when you move your body you leave a lot to gravity and inertia. So to simulate that well you'd have to have something where the physics engine acts as muscular control and at different times lets the different parts of the body naturally flow. I don't know how animations works well enough to know if this sort of dynamic animation would be possible, though.

 

[Artanisix]

Hi Windwaker.

 

[Amir0x]

Hi Shadow of the Colossus

 

[Lakitu]

Hi Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter! ...Wait

 

[Wollan]

God of War.

 

[lexy]

I'm really impressed with what SCEA's internal studios have done, as far as game animation is concerned, this past generation. From what I understand, a lot of them have actual animators (not programmers) overseeing the animation in their games which is the right direction to go if the results are any indication.

 

[C- Warrior]

The action gaming guru, chimes in, please--hold your applause.

First, action games are good place to look at. Next, 60 frames per second baby.

Ninja Gaiden
Devil May Cry
Devil May Cry 2
Devil May Cry 3
Beyond Good and Evil
PN03 (this is actually pretty -damn- good animation wise)
Sengoku Basara (Devil Kings)
Virtua Fighter [4]
Dead or Alive [3]
Wind Waker


60 frames per second is very important (as you can see above). Some titles, like RE4, have a lot of attention to animation detail (Capcom does this well) but it runs at 30 frames per second, and it hurts it =/

And there is God of War, where the animation is overly exaggerated almost in a cartoony-caustic fashion--and because I'm taking your statement of 'good animation' as 'realistic' animation, I'm going to op to leave it out. You might say, why then put Wind Waker. Well because, the game is meant to look cartoony, that's its thing.

 

[SolidSnakex]

The problem wiht animation in alot of games is that it almost seems like the last thing they think about. You get these great textures and lighting, and then a character that animates like a robot. That's already becoming a trend next gen where you see character just animate terribly.

There are developers that make games with good animation (Sony, Konami, Nintendo, Capcom for example), those will be the same ones doing it next gen. Look for their games if you want good animation.

 

[dark10x]

Ninja Gaiden
Devil May Cry
Devil May Cry 2
Devil May Cry 3
Beyond Good and Evil
PN03 (this is actually pretty -damn- good animation wise)
Sengoku Basara (Devil Kings)
Virtua Fighter [4]
Dead or Alive [3]
Wind Waker


60 frames per second is very important (as you can see above).

As you can see above? BG&E, PN03, and Wind Waker are all 30 fps (or variable) framerate games. BG&E has a ceiling of 60, but it does not hold it by any means. Even the PC version tends to drop some here and there.

 

[pj]

Are we close to having AI that will make its own animations? It would have basic definitions of how to walk and get up if it gets knocked down and other things, but it would fill in the gaps itself.

I think that would be the next big step

 

[Amir0x]

And there is God of War, where the animation is overly exaggerated almost in a cartoony-caustic fashion--and because I'm taking your statement of 'good animation' as 'realistic' animation, I'm going to op to leave it out. You might say, why then put Wind Waker. Well because, the game is meant to look cartoony, that's its thing.

I think your disdain for God of War made you opt to leave it out, because GoW has amazing animation no matter where you stand on the issue. Not even really debatable unless you're blind

 

[Wollan]

^ Endorphin. (in regards too pj325is)

Will be cool when they can implement it in real time in games. The PS4/X180 can't come soon enough.

 

[Ghengis Cohen]

And there is God of War, where the animation is overly exaggerated almost in a cartoony-caustic fashion--and because I'm taking your statement of 'good animation' as 'realistic' animation, I'm going to op to leave it out.

What exactly constitutes a "caustic" animation?

 

[echoshifting]

What exactly constitutes a "caustic" animation?

The animation of radioactive substances?

 

[rastex]

I think for really good animation they'd need some sort of advanced ragdoll physics.

That's like...10%. For great animation you need great animators. You also need great motion blending technology, both realtime and on the tool side. The other thing, and the reason why you're not going to see crazy animation ever is because it conflicts with playing the game. When the User is running and wants to stop, you can have a nice animation that takes like half a second to a second like it would in real life, but would that be any fun? Most likely your translation would be pretty high in that stopping animation, and thus if you're running towards an edge.. well it'll be really difficult to control. Then you have issues like turning, etc, essentially the more animation you have the less responsive your controls become.

This is a place where 60FPS really helps because you can show double the frames of animation while maintaining the same response rate. So look at a game like SF3, one of the best animated games in the industry, and yet you have things like cancels, stuns, etc. All of those things are animation based, and when yo're talking about cancels, what does that mean? it means you're CANCELLING the animation, and in fact going from one move to the next makes the character pop, which is actually BAD animation. But since it's at 60FPS the one frame pops are harder to notice, and since there's all sorts of crazy flashy stuff going on (note, cancels usually happen when a hit is made and you get the particle effects going) then it's even more obfuscation.

Jeremy Cantor, who is a big hollywood animation guy gave a talk at EA while I was there. He gave some guidelines to the animators from his experience working on games. They all seemed practical and useful, but there's a fundamental limit on how good the animation can be before it starts to affect gameplay. I mean everybody points at MGS games as the cream of the crop when it comes to animation, but during actual gameplay, it's not that great at all. Run straight with Snake and then take a sharp turn, there's absolutely no momentum or weight in his movements. Go into the laying down position and start turning in place, it's like he's on a turn table or something, absolutely no animation. BUT it has to be that way for gameplay reasons.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I mean everybody points at MGS games as the cream of the crop when it comes to animation, but during actual gameplay, it's not that great at all. Run straight with Snake and then take a sharp turn, there's absolutely no momentum or weight in his movements. Go into the laying down position and start turning in place, it's like he's on a turn table or something, absolutely no animation. BUT it has to be that way for gameplay reasons.

I think this has more to do with the limits of hardware more than what you can or can't do with gameplay. It's be strange because momentum movement is rare in games so adjusting to it would take time but its not something that'd be impossible to do. Kojima's said his main goal with MGS4's Snake isn't to make him look real but to make sure he moves like a real person, and part of that is moving based on momentum. You can't just make a sharp turn if you're running full speed, you've got to atleast plant your foot which mean you're going to pause for a second to move into that direction. If done right it could be really cool. Madden uses a momentum based system and fans have learned to appreciate how much that adds to the overall experience.

 

[Warm Machine]

Virtua Tennis had momentum based gameplay.

Rastex is pretty well right on the money with his description. Animation in general has been sacrificed for play control. Best I've seen in a difficult sort of game to make is Prince of Persia Sands of Time. They took it off the grid or position based system of like games such as Tomb Raider (and for that matter the original 2d Prince) and made it much more fluid and allowed for player input during animations already being played.

The future will remain that good game animation starts with really good animation and good animators but also allowing for better blending techniques and more flexable and natural inverse kinematics.

 

[rastex]

I think this has more to do with the limits of hardware more than what you can or can't do with gameplay. It's be strange because momentum movement is rare in games so adjusting to it would take time but its not something that'd be impossible to do. Kojima's said his main goal with MGS4's Snake isn't to make him look real but to make sure he moves like a real person, and part of that is moving based on momentum. You can't just make a sharp turn if you're running full speed, you've got to atleast plant your foot which mean you're going to pause for a second to move into that direction. If done right it could be really cool. Madden uses a momentum based system and fans have learned to appreciate how much that adds to the overall experience.

I disagree very much so with the bolded sentence as we've had great animation since the Nintendo and Super Nintendo days (games like Aladdin, etc). With this generation Sony 1st party games are at the top as well as the Prince of Persia games, and others mentioned earlier in this thread. So no, it's not really a hardware thing at all except for the aforementioned 60fps issue, it's far more of a game design thing and just software. As for MGS4 it's cool that Kojima is saying they're going to focus on that, and I'm interested to see what results they'll have, but their past record is NOT very good, not near what Sony 1st party has done.

 

[DDayton]

Are we close to having AI that will make its own animations? It would have basic definitions of how to walk and get up if it gets knocked down and other things, but it would fill in the gaps itself.

Er... games can do that right now, if I'm right in guessing what you mean. Generally, characters have "basic definitions of how to walk", and the game engine processes and alters things as you move the characters or as the AI responds. The only time it doesn't really "make up its own animation" is when it's running an entirely preprogrammed sequence or cutscene...

 

[sly]

I disagree very much so with the bolded sentence as we've had great animation since the Nintendo and Super Nintendo days (games like Aladdin, etc). With this generation Sony 1st party games are at the top as well as the Prince of Persia games, and others mentioned earlier in this thread. So no, it's not really a hardware thing at all except for the aforementioned 60fps issue, it's far more of a game design thing and just software. As for MGS4 it's cool that Kojima is saying they're going to focus on that, and I'm interested to see what results they'll have, but their past record is NOT very good, not near what Sony 1st party has done.

Is that you in your avatar? You look like Wilmer Valderrama

 

[pj]

Er... games can do that right now, if I'm right in guessing what you mean. Generally, characters have "basic definitions of how to walk", and the game engine processes and alters things as you move the characters or as the AI responds. The only time it doesn't really "make up its own animation" is when it's running an entirely preprogrammed sequence or cutscene...

Then why do so many games have shitty transitions?

 

[Tain]

Are we close to having AI that will make its own animations? It would have basic definitions of how to walk and get up if it gets knocked down and other things, but it would fill in the gaps itself.

...Endorphin.

 

[Helznicht]

I think the worlds of "Good Animation" and "Good Controls" are gonna colide next gen.

The only way you can get realistic animation is if you let it suffer the controls.

Personally, when I push left, I want my character to move left, now. Not some period of time later waiting while he turns around and builds momentum to go left.

If im ducking behind cover from gun fire, I want my character down the instant I hit the button, not after he looks down and eases to one knee in a realistic fashion.

 

[sly]

I think the worlds of "Good Animation" and "Good Controls" are gonna colide next gen.

The only way you can get realistic animation is if you let it suffer the controls.

Personally, when I push left, I want my character to move left, now. Not some period of time later waiting while he turns around and builds momentum to go left.

If im ducking behind cover from gun fire, I want my character down the instant I hit the button, not after he looks down and eases to one knee in a realistic fashion.

QFT.

 

[Warm Machine]

...Endorphin.

...is for building animations not playing them in real time. It requires pre built motion in and motion out and then builds the frames between over time using a combo of ragdoll and case specific constraints. Not that it will never happen in real time in the future mind you but it is use is mostly good for doing things that stunt based and are a pain to do by hand or a pain to do on a motion capture stage.

 

[Gattsu25]

QFT.

Not really...MGS is an example of a game (IMO) with few transitional frames despite having good animation.

 

[Tain]

...is for building animations not playing them in real time. It requires pre built motion in and motion out and then builds the frames between over time using a combo of ragdoll and case specific constraints. Not that it will never happen in real time in the future mind you...

I know, I know, but the performance is so damn good as it is that I can't imagine a purely real-time implementation being too far off. And yeah, it's not 100% AI, but I'd be amazed if we ever got to that point.

 

[Helznicht]

Yeah, and it doesnt look realistic. It has alot of ice-skating, stilled frames during pivots, running in place against walls and snapping to wall hugging position.

My point was, to really take that to the next level, it is going to effect control and in-turn, gameplay.

 

[sly]

Not really...MGS is an example of a game (IMO) with few transitional frames despite having good animation.

The animation isn't completely realistic(as rastex has pointed out previously) The key is to get the most realistic animation possible without compromising the controls(which MGS does sucessfully). If MGS' animation was to be more realistic the controls/gameplay would suffer.

 

[Mr Gump]

Smackdown series has great animation.

 

[Mr. Lemming]

You can't just make a sharp turn if you're running full speed, you've got to atleast plant your foot which mean you're going to pause for a second to move into that direction. If done right it could be really cool. Madden uses a momentum based system and fans have learned to appreciate how much that adds to the overall experience.

So like Mario 64?

 

[J2 Cool]

Eh, it takes talent. Something like Ico is very good. There's momentum, weight, etc. Everything that is animation Yet it's still very much a game and fun to move around. It's also great seeing Ico climb a ladder, splash into a pond, jump and swing the stick. Other games to follow such good animation, good physics, and good fun include Metal Gear Solid series, Prince of Persia, Devil May Cry, etc. But it's all a balance. Some lean more from one side to the other. Madden for instance has gone back and forth, never steady. Some Madden's remain better than others. If you look at today's version, 06. And then at say '04, it's ridiculous. Madden '04 isn't even fun to play anymore.

Sadly, from videos of 360, I'm worried about them moving backwards. Supposedly more animations in the 360 version but from videos it isn't looking very good or fun.

 

[rastex]

So like Mario 64?

Hell, since the first Mario there's been momentum movement, while maintaining absolutely spot-on control. That's part of the genius of its design and why the mario games are so damn good. They're the benchmark for character control that other games should aspire to.

Is that you in your avatar? You look like Wilmer Valderrama

Why thank you! Though I get hotter girls

 

[the ID effect]

I disagree very much so with the bolded sentence as we've had great animation since the Nintendo and Super Nintendo days (games like Aladdin, etc). With this generation Sony 1st party games are at the top as well as the Prince of Persia games, and others mentioned earlier in this thread. So no, it's not really a hardware thing at all except for the aforementioned 60fps issue, it's far more of a game design thing and just software. As for MGS4 it's cool that Kojima is saying they're going to focus on that, and I'm interested to see what results they'll have, but their past record is NOT very good, not near what Sony 1st party has done.

Um you are in fact wrong. The quality of full body animation is EXTREMELY dependant upon hardware. For alot of current gen games [i look at ps2] the most amount of high res models/skeletons per shot/scene is around 4. This is very limiting and usually since most games try to cram as many characters in a scene for either the drama of it or to cover up something, they must lower the bone size and thus droping complex facial and/or hand animation, both of which really bring a character to life.

Anyways, just about everything is mocap'd nowadays so it's pretty much down to a science of just cleaning up data, and having a talented person work then on facial animation.

Edit: I am of course talking about Real time here

 

[Andrew2]

Animations in games is already good; just look at fighting games like Tekken, VF and Soul Calibur. In fact, Soul Calibur is a perfect exsample of good animation being put to work as you can tell that alot of the stuff have been well motion-captured and little key-framing being done.

Anyhow, I would really love to see motion-capture really become the de facto process of doing animations/motions in the long-run for both film and games. Its cheaper and more efficent compared to key-framing. Key-framing is good for those instances you cannot get certain motion references, but overall its an expensive and already done to death process.

btw, did I tell you I'm studying animation myself? Currently studying from this text written by animator of Roger Rabbit, Richard Williams:

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

I would say Resident Evil 4 has good animation, especially the reloading animations like the rifle. Doing things like shooting a guy in the leg with your handgun, then rush up to him and do a spinning roundhouse kick, and reload right after, it's pretty stylish and slick.

 

[Andrew2]

Anyways, just about everything is mocap'd nowadays so it's pretty much down to a science of just cleaning up data, and having a talented person work then on facial animation.

Edit: I am of course talking about Real time here

Not true. Theres still alot of developers out there without the facilities and equipment to do motion-capture in-house, less contract it out.

Heres something to think about, but the Champions of Norrath games don't use any kind of motion-capture. All of the motions in the game were done by hand and by 1 individual.

 

[J2 Cool]

btw, did I tell you I'm studying animation myself? Currently studying from this text written by animator of Roger Rabbit, Richard Williams:

Nice, been reading that myself for the last 2 months.

 

[Andrew2]

Yeah, and it doesnt look realistic. It has alot of ice-skating, stilled frames during pivots, running in place against walls and snapping to wall hugging position.

My point was, to really take that to the next level, it is going to effect control and in-turn, gameplay.

Animations like I've said is already good, but I believe the next step is improving collision detection.

Going back to Soul Calibur, the animations are good, but the collision detect is still off. This is why I think physics-base processing would be good in the next-gen of games and why fighting games for exsample would be one of the benefactors of phsyics tools like Havok, NaturalMotion, PhsyX/Novodex.

I'm a bit curious as to why Team Ninja seem to neglect to even impliment either of these tools into DOA4

 

[trmas]

Easy. When MGS4 releases. Kojima is worried more about animation and physics than graphics this time. I have faith.