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Where do game devs store their old game source codes?

V

Vieo

Member
I wonder about this especially in the case of devs that have been around for ages like Nintendo. Where do they store their old source codes for games they no longer update and how do they store them? In a bank vault on optical discs? In one of their offices on several harddrives?

I gots ta know! :D
 
I know this answer will horrify you, but in Japan, a lot of them DON'T.

Many, many great games have been lost over the years. Some are put on tape, which goes bad, others are in closets and the people who were supposed to be keeping track of them have left the company.

The thing is, a lot of them use obscure data formats -- have you tried importing a 15-year-old Alias|Wavefront model into Maya lately?

In many cases, you could simply not recompile some games. For example, at my last company, our PS1 game would only compile on ONE hacked-to-shit machine running Windows 98 -- the environment breaks under XP or 2000 -- that no longer exists (thrown out, I believe). If you told me to make a new build of the game, I'd laugh at you!
 
In a PC connected to Internet so the source can be stolen and your company can have an excuse to delay the game for a long time :lol
 
FiRez said:
In a PC connected to Internet so the source can be stolen and your company can have an excuse to delay the game for a long time :lol
Click to expand...

That's stupid. No company is that stupid. I mean they close any sort of Valve, if you will, that could do that. I mean common. If it was that bad, I bet some games would take like Half a Life 2 complete. Really....
 
ManDudeChild said:
That's stupid. No company is that stupid. I mean they close any sort of Valve, if you will, that could do that. I mean common. If it was that bad, I bet some games would take like Half a Life 2 complete. Really....
Click to expand...

:lol
 
Sho Nuff said:
I know this answer will horrify you, but in Japan, a lot of them DON'T.
Click to expand...

I know... it's scary. I work at an American branch of a Japanese company and sometimes when you want to see old stuff that they worked on back there, literally, no one can remember where they put the code, or even who worked on the code :(

All the code from all the games I ever worked on are backed up on CDs somewhere in the bottom of my closet however. Would that stuff actually build outside of the old dev environment? I wouldn't bet on it.
 
Sho Nuff said:
I know this answer will horrify you, but in Japan, a lot of them DON'T.

Many, many great games have been lost over the years. Some are put on tape, which goes bad, others are in closets and the people who were supposed to be keeping track of them have left the company.

The thing is, a lot of them use obscure data formats -- have you tried importing a 15-year-old Alias|Wavefront model into Maya lately?I know this answer will horrify you, but in Japan, a lot of them DON'T.
Click to expand...
Brings back memories about some of my old work (even stuff I did in free time) that I have no clue where it is now anymore. I know I still have some 15 year old backups on floppies and such but I don't even know if any of it would still work.
Also reminds me of a buddy of mine - he actually bought his own game once because he wanted a copy and his backups no longer sufficed to make a working build :lol


In a PC connected to Internet so the source can be stolen and your company can have an excuse to delay the game for a long time
Click to expand...
To be fair - most of us need to use internet all the time for work - so if company feels unsafe having sources on the same PC, they have to provide me with two.
 
Sho Nuff said:
I know this answer will horrify you, but in Japan, a lot of them DON'T.

Many, many great games have been lost over the years. Some are put on tape, which goes bad, others are in closets and the people who were supposed to be keeping track of them have left the company.

The thing is, a lot of them use obscure data formats -- have you tried importing a 15-year-old Alias|Wavefront model into Maya lately?

In many cases, you could simply not recompile some games. For example, at my last company, our PS1 game would only compile on ONE hacked-to-shit machine running Windows 98 -- the environment breaks under XP or 2000 -- that no longer exists (thrown out, I believe). If you told me to make a new build of the game, I'd laugh at you!
Click to expand...

Really, I thought that most of the libraries and compilers came with the dev kit (ex: for the XDK you only need Visual C# and .net framework before installing it), and for any external application you would only need to install it and call any depend. from the source code.
 
Fafalada said:
Brings back memories about some of my old work (even stuff I did in free time) that I have no clue where it is now anymore. I know I still have some 15 year old backups on floppies and such but I don't even know if any of it would still work.
Click to expand...

I would venture to say those are garbage. They most likely don't work at all.
 
Sho Nuff said:
I know this answer will horrify you, but in Japan, a lot of them DON'T.
Click to expand...

Quoted for truth. For example, I know Irem lost the source code for R-Type III, and they don't have an archive copy of it. Which is why the GBA version of the game sucked so bad, since it was rewritten from scratch and they had to rip the sprites from an SNES emulator just to make the game.
 
I really wish I saved some of my old game design/concept documents. I have a friend who can't believe that I was working on a Charles 'N Charge RPG.
 
FortNinety said:
I really wish I saved some of my old game design/concept documents. I have a friend who can't believe that I was working on a Charles 'N Charge RPG.
Click to expand...

Holy shit. If I were you, I wouldn't even admit that to anyone else. :lol
 
I remember you saying that at I-CON. Though I'm actually kind of interested how you would've handled it. Like, would it be a stereotypical FF one or more of a simulation/interaction type game?
 
As a publisher, we backup all our developers source code on the internal server, External Hard Drive, and DvD Media.
 
Since a lot of devs have hopped on, do you guys employ any form of versioning control (CVS, SourceSafe, etc)? If so, what do you do with the arhives when the project ends? Do you only keep the "final" production build of the code, or do you keep all the old development code as well?
 
I never backupped my code until I got in a lot of trouble because my HDD with source for some tools crashed for real. I couldn't even recover most of it. But that was two years ago, I backup my latest code and the SVN repository twice a week on an external HDD and cd-rom.
Not that I'm screwed if I lost them, because another programmer is also making backups, but imagen we both slack off :)
 
djtiesto said:
I remember you saying that at I-CON. Though I'm actually kind of interested how you would've handled it. Like, would it be a stereotypical FF one or more of a simulation/interaction type game?
Click to expand...

It would have definitely been a simulation/interaction type game, relying on mostly action based activities.

You played the part of Charles and basically have to help out or fix all the family members' problems, much like the tv show, often attending to multiple emergencies simultaneously, such as figuring a way to chaperone a pajama party, tutor the kids, get Buddy out of jail for wrecking the car, and date two girls at once.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't out to create the new Zelda, but I was given a list of different 80's properties to based games upon to cash in on the then emerging 80's pop culture crazy going on in Europe, as well as a modest budget (at least for a budget PSone game). I figured I could design a fairly tightly put together game that would appeal to those who loved the show and make it fun to play by those who aren't true gamers per say (which I was told was supposed to be the primary audience) and still have enough content and scope to keep actual gamers occupied and amused for a long while. But alas, the plug was pulled and was moved onto different projects.
 
Ive often wondered about this also.

I'm not even thinking in terms of 20-25 year old games, but more like 10-15 year old games.

like the games made for the 3DO M2 (Power Crystal, D2)
or unreleased Sega hardware (VF3 for Saturn 3D upgrade)
or SNES CD-ROM
or Neo-Geo prototypes (Magician Lord 2, Cystalis 2)

etc
 
Since a lot of devs have hopped on, do you guys employ any form of versioning control (CVS, SourceSafe, etc)? If so, what do you do with the arhives when the project ends?
Click to expand...
These days we use ClearCase - which I have to say is an absolute nightmare to administrate (ok I'm partially saying this because I got to do the job of upgrading the server software and database a couple of times - but seriously the Unix roots of this software are Soooooo obvious in how stupidly complicated it gets in some places...)
Anyway, to answer your question, in my experience it's standard practice to backup the source control database, but it may depend on the size of projects I guess.
 
many places in japan don't use source control at all.... in the 21st century even... even perhaps my own company... :X

Charles in Charge RPG would've rocked. FortNinety, you're now on my list of awesome people for having even thought about it.
 
vitaflo said:
Quoted for truth. For example, I know Irem lost the source code for R-Type III, and they don't have an archive copy of it. Which is why the GBA version of the game sucked so bad, since it was rewritten from scratch and they had to rip the sprites from an SNES emulator just to make the game.
Click to expand...

Even if the code still existed, Raylight might not have had access to it. They've had a lot of trouble getting original materials to work on some of their GBA ports and have had to reverse engineer the finished version of original games on more than one occasion.
 
Fafalada said:
These days we use ClearCase - which I have to say is an absolute nightmare to administrate (ok I'm partially saying this because I got to do the job of upgrading the server software and database a couple of times - but seriously the Unix roots of this software are Soooooo obvious in how stupidly complicated it gets in some places...)
Anyway, to answer your question, in my experience it's standard practice to backup the source control database, but it may depend on the size of projects I guess.
Click to expand...

All devs should switch to Perforce. :|
 
lol. I remember when I was porting Spiderman to DC I had to rip some assets from PS1 retail disc and clean them up because those assets couldn't be found.
 
djtiesto said:
Crystalis 2?? Are you shitting me, this was in planning? More info STAT
Click to expand...


It was rumored in magazines, most notably, in GameFan. just do a google search for Crystalis 2 Neo Geo (or NeoGeo) and you will find that it is mentioned.

search google, yahoo, www.neo-geo.com and usenet newsgroups via google groups: www.dejanews.com


here's a start http://www.neo-geo.com/snk/master_list-ngh.htm

there are no pictures or concrete info however, because the game was likely only in the planning stages, or if any work on it had been done, its been kept hidden. at worst, it was only a rumor.
 
I'm really satisfied with TortoiseSVN, and best of all it's free :). Now I must admit I don't have much experience with other source control applications besides TortoiseSVN and WinCVS (which blows).
 
TortoiseCVS is okay. I wanted to use SVN here but there were (trivial) reasons why they didn't let us :(.
 
maharg said:
All devs should switch to Perforce. :|
Click to expand...
my friend swears by perforce, but the damn thing just isn't free :/

so until the revolution, looks like it's CVS or subversion for me

also :lol at sho nuff's stories. doesn't surprise me at all, but it's still funny!
 
Eh, I mean devs who, you know, have money. CVS and Subversion are not free if you have problems since you need to contract out to a third party for support or internalize it. Clearcase, Perforce, etc. come with extremely useful support.

But so long as you're not using VSS, which is genuinely the worst version control in history, more power to you.
 
fart said:
my friend swears by perforce, but the damn thing just isn't free :/

so until the revolution, looks like it's CVS or subversion for me

also :lol at sho nuff's stories. doesn't surprise me at all, but it's still funny!
Click to expand...

I dig Perforce, we switched to it even for artists. I thought alienbrain was a lot more convenient for art though.
 
I have a backup hard drive that I keep. Has a bootable XP on there and my old code.
Otherwise I just store code in rar's and label them by semesters.
 
Naked Shuriken said:
I think it's hilarious how ghetto the gaming industry seems to be when it comes to that stuff
Click to expand...

That's nothing, my friend :) Most of what we do in the industry is ghetto.

A lot of people on the outside think it's always amazing tools and engine and full creative freedom... there's no such thing as a smooth running clean no problem start to finish game development.

It's always fucked up somewhere.

Haven't worked on a single game that hasn't been messed up in some way... it's the pipeline... or the engine... or the client... or the TRC... or the hardware... etc etc etc...

Also, I've seen my share of source code from Japanese games, and let me tell you... they make great games but their source code is as messed up and the rest of us.
 
I remember the horror when our publisher asked us for the source code/all art resources so another house could do a PC version of our Xbox game. This was about six months after it shipped and it was like "OH MY GOD WE ARE SO FUCKED, WE DON'T HAVE HALF THAT STUFF."

I don't think the PC one ever came out, btw. I feel real bad for anyone who had to deal with my resources in particular :(

edit: For Virtua Fighter 2, the designer wrote the collision timings on a sheet of paper for each move and the programmer coded it into the game by hand. :( Maybe they never heard of CSVs?
 
I remember reading back when R-Type III was released for GBA, the company that converted it had to make it from scratch because Irem didn't have the source code anymore. That's apparently why it was so bad, haha.

EDIT: DOH, it was already mentioned in this thread. Still funny though!
 
Ikaris said:
Also, I've seen my share of source code from Japanese games, and let me tell you... they make great games but their source code is as messed up and the rest of us.
Click to expand...

Don't even get me started on the joys of Japanese source code. To them it's, "as long as it works, it's good code," which is very, I dunno, 1981. We were taught in school that getting it to work right was only half the job (if that), and the other half of the job was to make what you were doing clear to humans and not just the computer.

I know I'm stereotyping just a bit, and I hope that their programmers are learning more modern coding practices in school now... but I'm not going to bet money on it.
 
I remember the horror when our publisher asked us for the source code/all art resources so another house could do a PC version of our Xbox game. This was about six months after it shipped and it was like "OH MY GOD WE ARE SO FUCKED, WE DON'T HAVE HALF THAT STUFF."
Click to expand...
:lol Had to deal with similar situation myself. Another studio wanted to port a game to PSP, IT guys dug out the box that was used to compile the final version of the game we shipped. The box was locked away as soon as the game was shipped, so theoratically it should have all the stuff needed to recompile the code and rebuild the game. We had to sit around trying to figure out how we compile the code and asset at the first place. Then there were all these missing assets some how. It was hectic back then but hilarious to think about right now.
 
Fafalada said:
These days we use ClearCase - which I have to say is an absolute nightmare to administrate (ok I'm partially saying this because I got to do the job of upgrading the server software and database a couple of times - but seriously the Unix roots of this software are Soooooo obvious in how stupidly complicated it gets in some places...)
Click to expand...
It ain't you by any means. At least the ClearCase reps are really on the ball compared to other teams in that division...

This thread, by the way, is proof that obscure ROMs on millions of hard drives around the world is a net benefit,
 
Dsal said:
I know I'm stereotyping just a bit, and I hope that their programmers are learning more modern coding practices in school now... but I'm not going to bet money on it.
Click to expand...
Japanese people don't learn much of anything at school. College is four years of goofing off and going to 6 hours of classes a week. Your first company out of college is the one that's responsible for "training" you. Programmers seriously learn how to program "on-the-job."

Most companies don't share source code between projects, let alone with other companies. "Versioning" is gold/not-gold. It's HELL!!

jgkspsx said:
This thread, by the way, is proof that obscure ROMs on millions of hard drives around the world is a net benefit,
Click to expand...

For art/music/gameplay, yes. But you can't get the source code back out from the ROMs.
 
Dsal said:
I know I'm stereotyping just a bit, and I hope that their programmers are learning more modern coding practices in school now... but I'm not going to bet money on it.
Click to expand...

And you'd win that bet. my teacher in college was an "old school" programmer as he said. he had the messiest code i'd ever seen and he passed it on to the people in my class. thank god i had already been programming for years and he just taught me a few things i didn't know, but a lot of my classmates ended up programming in ancient old techniques. sad
 
RuGalz said:
lol. I remember when I was porting Spiderman to DC I had to rip some assets from PS1 retail disc and clean them up because those assets couldn't be found.
Click to expand...

Seriously, you did work on that?

...What happened to the "Another Story" second quest of sorts that was in the PSX version, but not the DC one? Always wondered if it was just a matter of the dev not wanting to invest extra time/money into adding it, or if disc storage space was an issue, or now if it was because of what you said above.
 
JackFrost2012 said:
For art/music/gameplay, yes. But you can't get the source code back out from the ROMs.
Click to expand...
You have bytecode, you can produce assembly language. It can be a ton of work to figure out and it's practically useless for everything post-16-bit-era and I suppose for many 16-bit era games as well, but it's better than having nothing.

Edit: and there's no reason you can't write a parser to convert the assembly into higher-level source. It won't be the original commented source document (but how well commented/documented were older projects anyway?), but it will be functionally equivalent. Sure, a single-use parser could take months to get working correctly, but the point stands :)
 
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