• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Why do Tech Oligarchs Get a Pass?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Antiochus

Member
It's somewhat amusing that with all the attention paid to Wall Street and traditional corporate CEOs, not much outrage has been paid to those absconding in Silicon Valley.

A most cogent summation and analysis. Nothing particularly new but it weaves all the well known evidence together in a compelling package. What is particularly notable is that the Silicon Valley Bubble could arguably be responsible for not only the Income Inequality issue of the past two decades, but also the Housing Bubble of the 00's as well.

http://www.newgeography.com/content...fwdus-and-silicon-valley-s-shady-1-percenters

When Steve Jobs died in October 2011, crowds of mourners gathered outside of Apple stores, leaving impromptu memorials to the fallen businessman. Many in Occupy Wall Street, then in full bloom, stopped to mourn the .001 percenter worth $7 billion, who didn’t believe in charity and whose company had more cash in hand than the U.S. Treasury while doing everything in its power to avoid paying taxes.

A new, and potentially dominant, ruling class is rising. Today’s tech moguls don’t employ many Americans, they don’t pay very much in taxes or tend to share much of their wealth, and they live in a separate world that few of us could ever hope to enter. But while spending millions bending the political process to pad their bottom lines, they’ve remained far more popular than past plutocrats, with 72 percent of Americans expressing positive feelings for the industry, compared to 30 percent for banking and 20 percent for oil and gas.
Perversely, the small number of jobs—mostly clustered in Silicon Valley—created by tech companies has helped its moguls avoid public scrutiny. Google employs 50,000, Facebook 4,600, and Twitter less than 1,000 domestic workers. In contrast, GM employs 200,000, Ford 164,000, and Exxon over 100,000. Put another way, Google, with a market cap of $215 billion, is about five times larger than GM yet has just one fourth as many workers.

This is an equation that defines inequality: more and more wealth concentrated in fewer hands and benefiting fewer workers.

While Facebook and Twitter have little role in the material economy, Apple, which continues to collect the bulk of its profit from physical goods—computers, iPads, iPhones and so on—has outsourced nearly all of its manufacturing to foreign companies like Foxconn that employ workers, often in appalling conditions, in China and elsewhere. About 700,000 people work on Apple’s physical products for subcontractors, according to the New York Times, but almost none of them are in the U.S. “The jobs aren’t coming back,” Jobs bluntly told President Obama at a 2011 dinner in Silicon Valley.

Not so much anti-union as post-union, the tech elite has avoided issues with labor by having so few laborers who could be organized. Andrew Carnegie and Henry Ford exploited workers in Pittsburgh and Detroit, and had to deal with the political consequences; the risks are much less if the exploited are in Chengdu and Guangzhou.

"There doesn't seem to be a role" for unions in this new economy, explained Internet entrepreneur and venture capitalist Marc Andreessen, because people are "marketing themselves and their skills.” He didn’t mention what people without skills in demand at tech companies might do.


But Americans with those skills shouldn’t rest easy, either. These same companies are always looking to cut down their domestic labor costs. Mark Zuckerberg, in particular, is pouring money into a new advocacy group, Fwd.us, with a board consisting of big-name Valley luminaries, to push “comprehensive immigration reform” (read: letting Facebook bring in a cheaper labor force). In a remarkably cynical move, Fwd.us has separate left- and right-leaning subgroups to prod politicians across the political spectrum to sign on to the bill that would pad the company’s bottom line.

Ostensibly, the increase in visas for high-skilled computer workers is a needed response to the critical shortage of such workers here—a notion that has been repeatedly dismissed, including in a recent report from the Obama-aligned Economic Policy Institute, which found that the country is producing 50 percent more IT professionals each year than are being employed in the field.
The real appeal of the H1B visas for “guest workers”—who already take between a third and half of all new IT jobs in the States—is that they are usually paid less than their pricy American counterparts, and are less likely to jump ship since they need to remain employed to stay in the country. Facebook’s lobbyists, reports the Washington Post, have pressed lawmakers to remove a requirement from the bill that companies make a “good faith” effort to hire Americans first.

Even as market caps rise, the number of Americans collecting any cut of that new wealth has scarcely moved. Since 2008, while IPOs have generated hundreds of billions of dollars of paper worth, Silicon Valley added just 30,000 new tech–related jobs—leaving the region with 40,000 fewer jobs than in 2001, when decades of rapid job growth came to an end.

The good jobs that are being created are also heavily clustered in one region, the west side of the San Francisco peninsula—a distinct and geographically constrained zone of privilege. The area boasts both formidable technical talent and, more important still, roughly one third of the nation’s venture funds along with the world’s most sophisticated network of tech-savvy investment banks, publicists, and attorneys.

But little of the Valley’s wealth reaches surrounding communities. Just across the bridge to the East Bay are high crime rates and an economy that’s lost about 60,000 jobs since 2001 with few signs of recovery. Inland, in the central Valley, double-digit unemployment is the norm and local governments are cutting police and other core services and even trying to declare bankruptcy.

“We live in a bubble, and I don’t mean a tech bubble or a valuation bubble. I mean a bubble as in our own little world,” Google’s Schmidt boasted to the San Francisco Chroniclein 2011. “And what a world it is. Companies can’t hire people fast enough. Young people can work hard and make a fortune. Homes hold their value. Occupy Wall Street isn’t really something that comes up in a daily discussion, because their issues are not our daily reality.”

Inside the bubble zone, centered around the bucolic university town of Palo Alto, employees at firms like Facebook and Google enjoy gourmet meals, child-care services, even complimentary house-cleaning. With all these largely male, well-paid geeks around, there’s even a burgeoning sex industry, with rates upwards of $500 an hour.

Those at top of the tech elite live very well, occupying some of the most expensive and attractive real estate in the country. They travel in style: Google maintains a fleet of private jets at San Jose airport, making enough of a racket to become a nuisance to their working-class neighbors. They have even proposed an $85 million flight center, called Blue City Holdings, to manage airplanes belonging to Google’s founders, Larry Page and Sergey Brin, and its executive chairman, Eric Schmidt. Like the Russian oligarchs, currently making a run on Tuscany’s castles and resorts, the Valley elite have embraced conspicuous consumption, albeit dressed up in California casual. In San Francisco, San Mateo, and Santa Clara counties combined, luxury vehicles accounted for nearly 21 percent of new car registrations from April 2011 to March 2012, more than twice the national average. Home prices in places like Palo Alto and the fashionable precincts of San Francisco go for well over a million—and routinely trigger all-cash bidding wars.

.......................................

Despite this vast wealth, and their newfound interest in lobbying Washington, the tech firms are notorious for paying as little as possible to the taxman.
Facebook paid no taxes last year, while making a profit of over $1 billion. Apple, “a pioneer in tactics to avoid taxes,”has kept much of its cash hoard abroad, out of reach of Uncle Sam. Microsoft has staved off nearly $7 billion in tax payments since 2009 by using loopholes to shift profits offshore, according to a recent Senate panel report.

And now, these 1 percenters—who invested heavily in Obama—are looking to help shape the “public good” in Washington and, as with Fwd.us, what they’re selling as good for us all is what aligns with their interests.
.................................................

Expect more of this kind of hubris from the new oligarchs. Some cities, ranging from Seattle, where Amazon is leading the charge, to Las Vegas and even Detroit now are counting on tech giants to expand or restore their damaged central cores.

But if those oligarchs do come, they will have little interest in retaining or expanding blue-collar jobs in construction or manufacturing, which they see as passé; the housing they build and even the public amenities they invest in will be for their own employees and other members of the “creative class.” The best the masses can hope for are jobs cutting hair, mowing grass, and painting the toenails of the oligarchs and their favored minions. You won’t see much emphasis, either, on basic skills training and community colleges, which are critical to auto manufacturers, oil refiners, and other older businesses and can provide opportunity for upward mobility for middle- and working-class youth.


............................................................

Perhaps an even bigger danger stems from the ability of “the sovereigns of cyberspace” to collect and market our most intimate details. Moving beyond the construction of platforms for communication, the oligarchs trade on the value of the personal information of the individuals using their technology, with little regard for social expectations about privacy, or even laws meant to protect it. Google has already been caught bypassing Apple’s privacy controls on phones and computers, and handing the data over to advertisers. The Huffington Post has constructed a long list of the firm’s privacy violations. Apple is being hauled in front of the courts for its own alleged violations while Consumer Reports recently detailed Facebook’s pervasive privacy breaches—culling information from users as detailed as health conditions, details an insurer could use against you, when one is going out of town (convenient for burglars), as well as information pertaining to everything from sexual orientation to religious affiliation to ethnic identity.

As Google’s Eric Schmidt put it: "We know where you are. We know where you've been. We can more or less know what you're thinking about."


........................................


Green is an easy sell in the Valley. If California electricity is too unreliable or expensive, firms will just shift their power-consuming server farms to places with cheap electricity, such as the Pacific Northwest or the Great Plains. Middle-class employees who, in part due to green “smart growth” policies, can no longer afford to live remotely close to Palo Alto or in San Francisco, can be shifted either abroad or to more affordable locales such as Salt Lake City, Phoenix, or Austin, Texas. Meanwhile, with supply restricted, the prices on houses owned by the oligarchs and their favored employees continue to rise into the stratosphere.

What we have then is something at once familiar and new: the rise of a new ruling class, arrogant and self-assured, with a growing interest in shaping how we are governed and how we live. Former oligarchs controlled railway freight, energy prices, agricultural markets, and other vital resources to the detriment of other sectors of the economy, individuals, and families. Only grassroots opposition stopped, or at least limited, their depredations.

But today’s new autocrats seek not only market control but the right to sell access to our most private details, and employ that technology to elect candidates who will do their bidding. Their claque in the media may allow them to market their ascendency as “progressive” and even liberating, but the new world being ushered into existence by the new oligarchs promises to be neither of those things.
 

dojokun

Banned
When the tech industry is gambling with other people's money and forcing people out of their homes without producing anything, then we'll talk.
 

Hari Seldon

Member
Not to absolve them, but at least they presumably make a product that people buy or consume, largely optional. The Wall Street types trick people out of their money using shady tactics like ARMs and confusing 401k fees.

Edit: Yes and gambling with other people's money.

Edit 2: The H1B shit that is going down is very shady though, I will give this article that.
 

WedgeX

Banned
Perversely, the small number of jobs—mostly clustered in Silicon Valley—created by tech companies has helped its moguls avoid public scrutiny

That's basically it. They created a small number of high paying jobs. They might be hording it and hardly contributing in the way of taxes, but they're not really building huge empires off the oppressed backs of laborers who were making miniscule amounts of money compared to the Fords, Carnegies, Rockfellers and others of the day. Finding creative ways to pay little to no taxes sure doesn't help the country, but its not recognized as outright antagonistic like "detectives" beating up union organizers.

There was backlash for a long while against Gates for having so much money in the 90s, but then he decided to partner with Buffett for grand charity work.
 

Hari Seldon

Member
That's basically it. They created a small number of high paying jobs. They might be hording it and hardly contributing in the way of taxes, but they're not really building huge empires off the oppressed backs of laborers who were making miniscule amounts of money compared to the Fords, Carnegies, Rockfellers and others of the day. Finding creative ways to pay little to no taxes sure doesn't help the country, but its not recognized as outright antagonistic like "detectives" beating up union organizers.

There was backlash for a long while against Gates for having so much money in the 90s, but then he decided to partner with Buffett for grand charity work.

That and the jobs were kind of created out of thin air. Sucks that twitter employs only 1000, but that is better than 0 before Twitter.

The only thing that is shitty is that they are using their money to corrupt government, just like every other oligarch does. Most of the time it is for inconsequential things, but the H1B thing is ridiculous.
 
When the tech industry is gambling with other people's money and forcing people out of their homes without producing anything, then we'll talk.
Eh I would say in the case of Exxon and other oil companies a very critical resource is being produced. I mean, its still the backbone of industry.

Could you say the same for a lot or tech companies? Especially the traditional .com era?
 

dojokun

Banned
Eh I would say in the case of Exxon and other oil companies a very critical resource is being produced. I mean, its still the backbone of industry.

Could you say the same for a lot or tech companies? Especially the traditional .com era?
For all the tech companies making the kind of money being criticized in the OP, yes they all make something the world values.

And oil is connected to a lot of wars in the Middle East... don't think the tech industry can be criticized for anything similar.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Eh I would say in the case of Exxon and other oil companies a very critical resource is being produced. I mean, its still the backbone of industry.

Could you say the same for a lot or tech companies? Especially the traditional .com era?

Energy is critical, but the opportunity cost of staying with fossils over nuclear and other sustainables are heinously huge.
 

DiscoJer

Member
Don't tech companies struggle to find qualified Americans to do the work they need too?

The article says that that's not the case, it's just much cheaper to hire people from other countries.


Ostensibly, the increase in visas for high-skilled computer workers is a needed response to the critical shortage of such workers here—a notion that has been repeatedly dismissed, including in a recent report from the Obama-aligned Economic Policy Institute, which found that the country is producing 50 percent more IT professionals each year than are being employed in the field.

The real appeal of the H1B visas for “guest workers”—who already take between a third and half of all new IT jobs in the States—is that they are usually paid less than their pricy American counterparts, and are less likely to jump ship since they need to remain employed to stay in the country. Facebook’s lobbyists, reports the Washington Post, have pressed lawmakers to remove a requirement from the bill that companies make a “good faith” effort to hire Americans first.
 
For all the tech companies making the kind of money being criticized in the OP, yes they all make something the world values.

And oil is connected to a lot of wars in the Middle East... don't think the tech industry can be criticized for anything similar.
It could be criticized for conflict related resources and raw materials though. Maybe not to the scale of some of the Middle East issues, but certainly something to watch. Labor issues too.
 

hawk2025

Member
What a bizarre article.

The part about H1-B visas is completely false for the kind of VERY high education, very high pay tech jobs the article is talking about. Foreigners get paid the same as everyone else at Google or Facebook, that point is completely false.

Borjas' (non peer-reviewed, might I add) findings regarding immigration are already suspect and riddled with omitted variables -- but it doesn't even apply to what the article is conveying.
 

dojokun

Banned
It could be criticized for conflict related resources and raw materials though. Maybe not to the scale of some of the Middle East issues, but certainly something to watch. Labor issues too.
The article wants to equate the tech industry's elite with Wall Street's elite so it will take more than that.
 
Because most people accept they've created a tangible and (most of the time) understandable product that they like. People don't begrudge those that apparently build and sell something to make money.

Ofc this doesn't mean they don't engage in shady business practices or that they should be thought of as being benevolent, but compared to bankers, vulture capitalists , hedge fund managers, etc., they don't appear as bad. A lot of people won't feel that someone deserves their vitriol or indignation just because the Silicon Valley people built/invented/developed a product that we didn't.
 
The article wants to equate the tech industry's elite with Wall Street's elite so it will take more than that.
But in general it could be possible to argue like oil tycoons in the past that exploited cheap labor, resources and tax loopholes to build their empires, the elite tech executives are doing similar things which allows themselves to reach an ultra-rich and powerful status.

Except that exploitation being doing on US soil, it is done in Africa and China.

Now I'm not saying it is fully to that extent, but it would be something interesting to look into and see how far it goes.
 
How do you know these graduates have the skill to work at Google or Facebook?
Then that applies to their selectivity of worldwide graduates as well.
One, that paper is about IT jobs, NOT the high-level work done at google and facebook.
Two, plenty of STEM grads go work on other fields, like finance and academics.
Third, the paper requires significant, extensive peer-reviewing of its methods and applications before it's taken as seriously as you are attempting to.

It was meant to be as a response to the immigration talk of the so-called shortage of high skilled workers. The point being is that immigration talks always ignore the majority of that workforce which is going to be less educated and that the US does have a pool of high skilled workers. Politicians want to ignore the problems of education and exploitative low-skilled labor while promoting themselves as immigrant-friendly.
 
Well, a lot of people do say Steve Jobs was an asshole. By what I understand, even that official biography pretty much said that.
 

dojokun

Banned
But in general it could be possible to argue like oil tycoons in the past that exploited cheap labor, resources and tax loopholes to build their empires, the elite tech executives are doing similar things which allows themselves to reach an ultra-rich and powerful status.

Except that exploitation being doing on US soil, it is done in Africa and China.

Now I'm not saying it is fully to that extent, but it would be something interesting to look into and see how far it goes.
The extent matters.
 
Seems to me that absolutely no type of business gives a fuck about this country, or about it's workers. They all serve themselves...and socialize within their own networks for themselves. Doesn't matter what the company does.
 

hawk2025

Member
Then that applies to their selectivity of worldwide graduates as well.


It was meant to be as a response to the immigration talk of the so-called shortage of high skilled workers. The point being is that immigration talks always ignore the majority of that workforce which is going to be less educated and that the US does have a pool of high skilled workers.


Huh? How does that apply to their selectivity of worldwide graduates?

Not all high-skilled workers are made equal. Hell, the article uses college graduates as a measure of high-skilled workers. Google and company hire tons of PhDs. It's a completely different level.

Using that article, or Borjas', to talk about the ultra-high level silicon valley workers is complete and total nonsense.
 
Huh? How does that apply to their selectivity of worldwide graduates?

Not all high-skilled workers are made equal. Hell, the article uses college graduates as a measure of high-skilled workers. Google and company hire tons of PhDs.

Using that article, or Borjas', to talk about the ultra-high level silicon valley workers is complete and total nonsense.

If you are making the case that too few Americans fit the bill to work at Google, then why would a grad from Europe or India or China be different? In terms of selectivity.
They can pay cheaper rates to them because they want to come here at almost any cost. Whereas an equivalent US grad will expect a much higher salary.
 

hawk2025

Member
If you are making the case that too few Americans fit the bill to work at Google, then why would a grad from Europe or India or China be different? In terms of selectivity.

Because a grad from Europe, India or China, or anywhere else in the world, went to Stanford/Harvard/MIT and got a PhD through an extremely competitive process.
 

quaere

Member
If you are making the case that too few Americans fit the bill to work at Google, then why would a grad from Europe or India or China be different? In terms of selectivity.
What? If there are 500 smart people with US citizenship and 500 smart people from India that need sponsorship and Google's hired all 500 citizens then the natural next step is to hire the 500 Indians.
 
Because a grad from Europe, India or China, or anywhere else in the world, went to Stanford/Harvard/MIT and got a PhD through an extremely competitive process.
An American who graduated from those same schools did not?
What? If there are 500 smart people with US citizenship and 500 smart people from India that need sponsorship and Google's hired all 500 citizens then the natural next step is to hire the 500 Indians.

The point was they can pay them less compared to an American equivalent die to their status as a guest worker.
 
If you are making the case that too few Americans fit the bill to work at Google, then why would a grad from Europe or India or China be different? In terms of selectivity.
They can pay cheaper rates to them because they want to come here at almost any cost. Whereas an equivalent US grad will expect a much higher salary.

No, that's not it at all. In general these places pay the same regardless of what country the potential employee comes from.

The issue is acquiring talent in a globally competitive world, not about pay. The math is pretty simple - the company's only real assets are its people, so it wants to hire the very best people in the world. While some of these people are Americans, a lot (or even most) are not, so you're really putting yourself at a disadvantage by limiting your hiring pool.

And simply having an engineering degree, even from MIT, doesn't mean you're qualified.
 

quaere

Member
The point was they can pay them less compared to an American equivalent die to their status as a guest worker.
Yes they could, but you haven't presented any evidence that's their primary motivation rather than being motivated by having already hired all 500 qualified American citizens.
 

hawk2025

Member
An American who graduated from those same schools did not?


The point was they can pay them less compared to an American equivalent die to their status as a guest worker.


I'm not sure if you are being purposefully obtuse. Of course they can. They can get any job they want, and they do. Americans who graduated with a PhD from any of those institutions will never have trouble getting a job on whatever they please.

Regarding your second point, as I've said before you are flat out wrong as far as the high-level jobs in Silicon Valley go, and I speak from inside experience. The market is competitive and foreigners get paid equivalent wages.

You are conflating low-level, relatively low-skill IT jobs with extremely high-level jobs at Silicon Valley.

There's a massive gap between the two.
 

dojokun

Banned
Well I just said it isn't to that extent. But it is worth monitoring and hoping to ensure it does not get to that extent like other industries of the past.
Sure, but the whole article is trying to equate the tech industry with other industries, so the main point is the tech industry's sins will need to be on the same level first. No one said the tech industry is full of 100% innocent saints and they shouldn't be monitored.
 

DeBurgo

Member
I think tech companies have seen a ton of scrutiny when it comes to things like hiring practices and employee retention, at least from people within the sector. Most people I know seem to agree that most tech companies have pretty fucked up standards when it comes to determining who they employ, and how long they employ them far. It's especially bad considering how many of companies complain loudly that there aren't enough (qualified) workers to fill their payroll.

However, high tech is still pretty damn competitive compared to say, a car company, and the start up costs are still pretty small compared to a lot of other businesses, especially if you're doing something like software.
Not all high-skilled workers are made equal. Hell, the article uses college graduates as a measure of high-skilled workers. Google and company hire tons of PhDs. It's a completely different level.
I know you're talking about this in a slightly different context, but in general it's my opinion that companies like Google are really shooting themselves in the foot long-run by only considering those with certain very narrow credentials in academia. It's not like people who either don't have PhDs or aren't fresh from some Ivy League college don't have good ideas, either.

Also, it's worth noting that Google has a ton of employees who are much less credentialed who come from acquisitions.
 
Sure, but the whole article is trying to equate the tech industry with other industries, so the main point is the tech industry's sins will need to be on the same level first. No one said the tech industry is full of 100% innocent saints and they shouldn't be monitored.

They will be regardless.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom