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[Men_in_Boxes]

There is a difference between a "compelling late game carrot" which lets face it could me anything, and a win/victory condition as your OP suggests.

That's true.

The definition of a win condition is game ending. In an extraction shooter that would be extracting, not shooting some boss.

So in a rogue lite, does the game end when you kill the final boss? It does not.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You know Hunt Showdown exists right?????

RIGHT?????

This has more to do with late game power levels than consistent gameplay loops.

I'm trying to find data on Escape from Tarkov populations late into the season. I've read that players generally quit the game and wait for server wipes near the end of each season because the game is less tense once you've built up your war chest enough and gotten close to max power level.

 

[clarky]

That's true.

So in a rogue lite, does the game end when you kill the final boss? It does not.

I'm not super familar with Rouge lites but stuff like Returnal can be "completed" no?

 

[Herbspiceguy]

At least in EFT and Dark and Darker the extra objectives are baked in the seasonal progression system; NPC quests requiring various items to lvl them up, which opens up access to more (higher quality) items, mats and crafting recipes. In Dark and Darker some of the best items on the market are crafted.

 

[FalconPunch]

Because extraction shooters are mostly dumb. Let me explain why.... Imagine you go to work everyday and you get paid at the end of the day. However, you can't use your money to buy anything cool, go on vacations, etc. Instead, you can only use your money to purchase things that make you better at work. That is an extraction shooter in a nutshell, utterly pointless waste of time.

 

[bender]

I'm not super familar with Rouge lites but stuff like Returnal can be "completed" no?

Returnal's rogue inspirations are fairly limited, and I'd argue poorly implemented, partially due to the narrative focus.

 

[clarky]

Because extraction shooters are mostly dumb. Let me explain why.... Imagine you go to work everyday and you get paid at the end of the day. However, you can use your money to buy anything cool, go on vacations, etc. Instead, you can only use your money to purchase things that make you better at work. That is an extraction shooter in a nutshell, utterly pointless waste of time.

That analogy would work if the game wasn't fun.

 

[Ribi]

Because extraction shooters are mostly dumb. Let me explain why.... Imagine you go to work everyday and you get paid at the end of the day. However, you can't use your money to buy anything cool, go on vacations, etc. Instead, you can only use your money to purchase things that make you better at work. That is an extraction shooter in a nutshell, utterly pointless waste of time.

So World of Warcraft

 

[FalconPunch]

That analogy would work if the game wasn't fun.

A lot of them aren't and by that, I mean the gameplay loop is not strong enough to overcome the whole pointlessness of playing the game.

 

[bender]

So World of Warcraft

Can I tell newbies in extraction shooters that the my panda pet was a super rare drop from farming level 1 wolves in the starting area of Elwynn Forest?

 

[clarky]

A lot of them aren't and by that, I mean the gameplay loop is not strong enough to overcome the whole pointlessness of playing the game.

Hard disagree there. DMZ was some of the best fun i had all year when it came out.

Tarkov and the Hunt have been in my rotation at one stage or another and Delta force looks promising.

Each to there own, i much prefer them over a BR for example.

 

[clarky]

Returnal's rogue inspirations are fairly limited, and I'd argue poorly implemented, partially due to the narrative focus.

We were talking about win conditions.

Most Rouge lites still have those, in that they can be completed. As i sad they are not my favourite genre of games so I'm not super familiar.

 

[FalconPunch]

So World of Warcraft

I've never played wow so I can't say, but if the game is truly like that, I'd fall of fast.

Hard disagree there. DMZ was some of the best fun i had all year when it came out.

Tarkov and the Hunt have been in my rotation at one stage or another and Delta force looks promising.

Each to there own, i much prefer them over a BR for example.

That's fair. You like what you like. As for BR, I find them theoretically interesting but practically boring. Too much camping is promoted, the time between encounters is too long, and the time to get back into a new game is too long. It makes it feel like a slog.

 

[bender]

We were talking about win conditions.

Most Rouge lites still have those, in that they can be completed. As i sad they are not my favourite genre of games so I'm not super familiar.

Any given run of a rogue or rogue like will end in failure (death) or any number of win conditions. Rogues are usually loaded with variety in builds, levels, items, secrets, and bosses so that every one offers something different. So while you can complete a run, the design encourages you to keep going back until you've discovered everything. It's why I think Returnal is a pretty bad roguelite as the variety just isn't there and has some design decisions to force balance (I love games that let you break the power curve) as well as something that happens in the midway point (a reset) that makes sense from a narrative standpoint but is kind of frustrating when you are having a good run.

 

[Griffon]

Title: Why don't Extraction Shooters have a victory condition?

Griffon : (gibberish)

OP:

That's the same as extracting with the good stuff.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

That's the same as extracting with the good stuff.

No, looting your enemy in Fortnite and moving to a new location is "extracting with good stuff". The Victory Royale is the "win condition".


clarky , bender nailed it.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Because extraction shooters are mostly dumb. Let me explain why.... Imagine you go to work everyday and you get paid at the end of the day. However, you can't use your money to buy anything cool, go on vacations, etc. Instead, you can only use your money to purchase things that make you better at work. That is an extraction shooter in a nutshell, utterly pointless waste of time.

The relationship between work vs play is a fascinating one. What's work to some, is play to others and vice versa.

 

[Griffon]

No, looting your enemy in Fortnite and moving to a new location is "extracting with good stuff". The Victory Royale is the "win condition".


clarky , bender nailed it.

You'd like hunt showdown better then, you extract with the boss soul.

 

[Tg89]

This has more to do with late game power levels than consistent gameplay loops.

I'm trying to find data on Escape from Tarkov populations late into the season. I've read that players generally quit the game and wait for server wipes near the end of each season because the game is less tense once you've built up your war chest enough and gotten close to max power level.

Populations fall off of most games late into any season/patch/cycle though. PoE, Fortnite, Diablo, CoD, etc. Majority of people want to play other shit at some point, not just run the same game over and over.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Populations fall off of most games late into any season/patch/cycle though. PoE, Fortnite, Diablo, CoD, etc. Majority of people want to play other shit at some point, not just run the same game over and over.

It read like it was a phenomena unique to Escape from Tarkov. I'm still trying to find it though...

 

[8BiTw0LF]

Hard disagree there. DMZ was some of the best fun i had all year when it came out.

Same. For me it's still the best extraction mode by far. The satisfaction in getting the stuff you need and extracting with the last chopper, while there's two other teams trying to do the same - man, the intensity!

I still watch Wizard from time to time. DMZ is just fun to play and watch. Also, I'm not buying a new CoD until they release DMZ2 lol

 

[Perrott]

The winning condition shouldn't exist within the open-world PvP sandbox but outside of it. The matches should only be the means through which you get the necessary equipment and resources to progress through the real game.

And what would this "real game" be? Well, if I were to direct a new iteration of The Last Of Us Online, the "real game" would be garnering enough resources during incursions into any given American city sandbox (the extraction shooter part of the game) to sustain your group of survivors over the duration of a season of the game, while meeting as many arbitrary conditions along the way to unlock the most stuff possible from the battle pass, all of which would have a theme exclusive to that particular faction of survivors you'd be guiding through the post-apocalypse (maybe one season and its battle pass unlock conditions would be themed around a group of gun dealers, so you'd be required to focus on the extraction of guns and ammunitions during the runs).

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Because extraction shooters are mostly dumb. Let me explain why.... Imagine you go to work everyday and you get paid at the end of the day. However, you can't use your money to buy anything cool, go on vacations, etc. Instead, you can only use your money to purchase things that make you better at work. That is an extraction shooter in a nutshell, utterly pointless waste of time.

I play games to have a good time. I have a good time playing Hunt Showdown. Also, a lot of extraction shooters don't work the way you describe.

OP doesn't know how extraction shooters work either, so it's all good.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The winning condition shouldn't exist within the open-world PvP sandbox but outside of it. The matches should only be the means through which you get the necessary equipment and resources to progress through the real game.

And what would this "real game" be? Well, if I were to direct a new iteration of The Last Of Us Online, the "real game" would be garnering enough resources during incursions into any given American city sandbox (the extraction shooter part of the game) to sustain your group of survivors over the duration of a season of the game, while meeting as many arbitrary conditions along the way to unlock the most stuff possible from the battle pass, all of which would have a theme exclusive to that particular faction of survivors you'd be guiding through the post-apocalypse (maybe one season and its battle pass unlock conditions would be themed around a group of gun dealers, so you'd be required to focus on the extraction of guns and ammunitions during the runs).

How would the concept you describe here be located "outside of the PvP sandbox"?

 

[Perrott]

How would the concept you describe here be located "outside of the PvP sandbox"?

When not competing against other groups of survivors (players) in raiding abandoned urban areas or even FEDRA outposts, you'd be at a dynamic (and ever changing throughout the season) hub area that is the camp/settlement of the specific faction that you're playing at during that season. At that hub area, based on the amounts and kind of resources you've gathered during your incursions (PvP sandbox), you would be investing your resources and making tough decisions that, similarly to the special events found in roguelikes such as Slay the Spire or FTL, might have positive or negative impacts on your ability to have your faction make it to the end of the season, as well as the amount of rewards you'd be given then based on how many survived, etc.

For instance, this is what a 1.5 hours session would look like:

• Week 12 (in-game) of the Gun Dealers faction
  • You (get into the matchmaking for the extraction mode) venture into a nearby rural town, searching for medical supplies (your suggested goal for the incursion) as around a dozen survivors from your group are in bed following a tougher than usual winter season.
  • You have no luck after inspecting a handful of abandoned drug stores and don't feel well-equiped enough to take on a FEDRA settlement (AI enemies) that might have the supplies you're after. Rather than risking dying (and losing one of your most experienced scouts), you decide to cut your losses (extract) for the time being after finding some additional ammo and canned foods around the map.
  • Once you return to your faction's settlement (you are back at the hub lobby area), one of the men you left on guard duty (an NPC presenting one of the aforementioned events to you) says that one scout from a traders caravan has approached them with the offer to exchange a large amount of our guns inventory for the medicine we've been needing to get by in the short term.
    • The implications of this moral dilemma are the following: parting away with so many of your guns may decrease your camp's self-defense capabilities in the future, but getting that medicine may help save the lives of survivors whose knowledge (maybe one of them is a blacksmith that provides you with the perk of restoring the endurance of your melee arsenal ahead of each new incursion) might prove vital for your long-term goals of keeping your faction alive, although with more people to feed.
  • You choose to accept the deal and part ways with a handful of pistols and revolvers, a couple of hunting rifles, a double-barrell shotgun and an assault rifle in pristine condition. Your people begins to heal thanks to the medicine.
• Week 13
  • You die during an incursion and lose your best-equipped scout. One less member of your faction.
• Week 14
  • Your new scout is chased out of a major city by a well-organized local totalitarian regime. In getting out alive at all costs, you wasted more ammo and resources than you extracted with.
• Week 15
  • Another fruitless expedition, at least when it comes to replenishing your factions' weapons inventory.
  • [Random event] Over the night after your return, the camp is raided in a flash by some motorized gang. Due to your guards being light on firepower, two of them ended up shot and the attackers got away taking three women with them. Bunch of degenerates.

That entire series of events ended up impacting the morale of your faction on various levels and ultimately your group's ability to remain alive until the end of the season, with you having to rethink your strategy and evaluate how to better play your cards from now on.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

This Extraction Shooter YouTuber reached the same conclusion I did after playing thousands of hours. I've only just immersed myself in the glory that is the ES.



This is the most exciting genre in all of gaming.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

This Extraction Shooter YouTuber reached the same conclusion I did after playing thousands of hours. I've only just immersed myself in the glory that is the ES.



This is the most exciting genre in all of gaming.

The type of "progression" he is wanting is a personal base you can build up and show off to friends. Most people don't give a rats ass about that type of stuff. Also notice the games he says focus less on PvP he also has to say "RIP" after mentioning them because they are dead.

Hunt has good looting and good progression. The day it starts to focus on collecting items for a "personal bayou" as he puts it, so I can invite friends over and we can drink tea in my "base" is the day I stop playing.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The type of "progression" he is wanting is a personal base you can build up and show off to friends. Most people don't give a rats ass about that type of stuff. Also notice the games he says focus less on PvP he also has to say "RIP" after mentioning them because they are dead.

Yes and no. Vigors base building is basically an engine builder. You collect resources to improve your engine, which will produce more high quality resources. It's incredibly effective and probably Vigors strongest component. It's also a long term goal that has a clear "victory condition" (completion) which was my point.

Do you know how many "RIP" FPS games released before Wolfenstein 3D and Doom? The idea that 4 experiments failed and therefor we have reached full knowledge about the genre makes absolutely no sense and isn't grounded in logic or rational thought. The genre will obviously grow as it appeals to a wider variety of games...as all genres do. How that happens is the tricky part.

Hunt has good looting and good progression. The day it starts to focus on collecting items for a "personal bayou" as he puts it, so I can invite friends over and we can drink tea in my "base" is the day I stop playing.

Building out different objectives that appeal to different player types would have no effect on you. If you don't want to collect the trinkets, your gameplay loop wouldn't change at all. You would just pursue the carrots that you already enjoyed.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Yes and no. Vigors base building is basically an engine builder. You collect resources to improve your engine, which will produce more high quality resources. It's incredibly effective and probably Vigors strongest component. It's also a long term goal that has a clear "victory condition" (completion) which was my point.

Do you know how many "RIP" FPS games released before Wolfenstein 3D and Doom? The idea that 4 experiments failed and therefor we have reached full knowledge about the genre makes absolutely no sense and isn't grounded in logic or rational thought. The genre will obviously grow as it appeals to a wider variety of games...as all genres do. How that happens is the tricky part.

Building out different objectives that appeal to different player types would have no effect on you. If you don't want to collect the trinkets, your gameplay loop wouldn't change at all. You would just pursue the carrots that you already enjoyed.

Never said or implied we have reached the pinnacle of extraction shooters. Just that a focus away from PvP is wrong, as is pretty much everything you post about the genre.

Especially your last comment there. Never played an extraction shooter or BR game before? These challenges and extra objectives always affect everyone, whether you are participating or not.

The video basically boils down to "hey I want animal crossing with guns. These dead shooters kind of tried it, someone else should!"

No thanks.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Never said or implied we have reached the pinnacle of extraction shooters. Just that a focus away from PvP is wrong, as is pretty much everything you post about the genre.

The widespread embracement of PvEvP from the most successful game makers in the world over the last 5 years suggests that this is wrong. Casting a wider net gives you a more bountiful pull.

Especially your last comment there. Never played an extraction shooter or BR game before? These challenges and extra objectives always affect everyone, whether you are participating or not.

Can you explain what you mean by this? I have a doctorate in BR and the players who chase the "daily quests" for cosmetics don't infringe on PvP focused gamers in any meaningful way. They're just running around the island in different patterns. If anything, they improve the unpredictability of how and where engagements start.

The video basically boils down to "hey I want animal crossing with guns. These dead shooters kind of tried it, someone else should!"

Not really. The more varied and interesting you can make each players growth curve ( building character & base building), the better off the genre will be.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Doctorate in BR

Doesn't understand the basics of daily challenges, battle pass grind, material grind etc and claims they don't affect the core gameplay



Hey if you want base building in your extraction shooter then more power to you. I'll continue to stay away.

 

[ap_puff]

I know the win condition.