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[legend166]

Well I'll iterate again that I limit it to things an athlete can make an informed decision about. So basically it would be drugs whose health effects already been studied significantly. Which generally speaking requires what, a decade or more of research? Not talking about people mixing some new drug up in their lab today and injecting it into their athlete tomorrow. But maybe I am naive. I just don't see there being a huge investment market in 10-20 year old studies just to give your Olympic athletes a boost. I never got the idea the Olympics were that important to a country.

Edit: Though now I think of it it kinda makes it sound like NASCAR where manufacturers test out new designs which eventually make it into consumer models for a benefit to safety, fuel consumption, etc. But in this case the Olympians would be the NASCAR cars, and the research can possibly go on to help certain people.

As duckroll said earlier, if doping is legal, it no longer is a choice. So while you keep parroting on about "informed decisions", you're not realising that if sports are allowed to reach that point, the informed decision is "would you like to continue participating in this sport at a high level?" And yes, you're being incredibly naive. Wherever you draw the line, unethical athletes and doctors will try and cross it.

But I mean, you're comparing human beings to cars, so I have to assume you're trolling.

Anyway, every one looks at this from a professional point of view, but I can't even imagine the damage that would be caused at the amateur level if doping becomes a requirement to compete at the top level.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

As duckroll said earlier, if doping is legal, it no longer is a choice. So while you keep parroting on about "informed decisions", you're not realising that if sports are allowed to reach that point, the informed decision is "would you like to continue participating in this sport at a high level?" And yes, you're being incredibly naive. Wherever you draw the line, unethical athletes and doctors will try and cross it.

But I mean, you're comparing human beings to cars, so I have to assume you're trolling.

Anyway, every one looks at this from a professional point of view, but I can't even imagine the damage that would be caused at the amateur level if doping becomes a requirement to compete at the top level.

Okay? It's still their choice to compete or not. And as has been iterated before, their decision to take part in high competition sports is already accepting a great number of risks and detriments to their health. If I were against doping then I'd also be against the whole idea of established sports which encourage dangerous competition. People die every year training for competition. People even die during competition. If we're going to pretend their health is our number one priority then let's not half-arse it.

 

[legend166]

Take into account that most elite athletes are already being seriously harmed just by taking part in this kind of sport competitions. Gymnasts, boxers and similar, people that compete in contact sports like hockey, football or rugby, etc... are already destroying their bodies for entertainment even if they are not using drugs. Being a high level athlete is anything but healthy.

Why are you acting like the Olympics is a series of death sports?

I would have thought for most of the sports in the Olympics, being a high level athlete is the definition of healthy.

 

[Anfang]

And as has been iterated before, their decision to take part in high competition sports is already accepting a great number of risks and detriments to their health. If I were against doping then I'd also be against the whole idea of established sports which encourage dangerous competition.

This logic, holy shit lol. People want to see what a trained body can do, not what a chemed up body can. is it really that hard to understand?

 

[obin_gam]

I would totally watch a Doping Olympics - where everyone is over 18 and gets to take whatever the fuck they want. What speeds, what strengths, what body hair...

This logic, holy shit lol. People want to see what a trained body can do, not what a chemed up body can. is it really that hard to understand?

I want to see what a chemed up body can do...

 

[NoblesseOblige]

This logic, holy shit lol. People want to see what a trained body can do, not what a chemed up body can. is it really that hard to understand?

Not sure what planet you live on. People want to see high level competition. Training gets you only so far. Enhancements push it even further. Why do you think virtually every athlete is on some sort of chemical regimen, whether legal or not?

 

[platocplx]

I'd welcome doping just so we can see the extent of what the human body is capable of under chemical influence. Imagine the monsters of
humans it could produce. It would be even more exciting to watch them compete.

Professor is that you?

 

[legend166]

Okay? It's still their choice to compete or not. And as has been iterated before, their decision to take part in high competition sports is already accepting a great number of risks and detriments to their health. If I were against doping then I'd also be against the whole idea of established sports which encourage dangerous competition.

But the choice isn't whether to compete or not, the choice is only if they're willing to dope or not. Because if doping becomes legal, it becomes a requirement to compete. That's basically what happened in the Tour de France.

And I think you're massively overstating the "great number of risks and detriments to their health". Elite athletes generally have longer life spans than the general population: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4534511/

Are there particular sports with increased dangers? Of course, and there's plenty of conversation about those, and how they can be made safer, or if they should even be played at all. But you know what actually makes those sports more dangerous? Doping! The increase in size and speed offered by doping in contact sports takes already dangerous sports and then makes them even more dangerous!

 

[azyless]

Caught = cheat?

I'm not sure what you're asking. Yes any person who gets caught for doping is a cheater in my book, I don't think that's a weird or uncommon opinion.

 

[TTG]

As duckroll said earlier, if doping is legal, it no longer is a choice. So while you keep parroting on about "informed decisions", you're not realising that if sports are allowed to reach that point, the informed decision is "would you like to continue participating in this sport at a high level?" And yes, you're being incredibly naive. Wherever you draw the line, unethical athletes and doctors will try and cross it.

But I mean, you're comparing human beings to cars, so I have to assume you're trolling.

Anyway, every one looks at this from a professional point of view, but I can't even imagine the damage that would be caused at the amateur level if doping becomes a requirement to compete at the top level.

There are popular misconceptions here it's worth clearing up.

1: The question you pose is not an eventuality if steroids are legalized, it's a reality right now.

2. It's at the amateur level right now, in abundance.

3. define this damage you can't imagine. Because despite what you may have heard, which is not unlike reefer madness in terms of veracity, PEDs are relatively low on the list of dangers athletes face.

 

[Vastag]

Why are you acting like the Olympics is a series of death sports?

I would have thought for most of the sports in the Olympics, being a high level athlete is the definition of healthy.

I'm not saying that they are going to die on the mat, what I'm saying is that elite athletes do serious and lasting damage to their bodies competing at that level. Look for example at gymnasts. I agree that when they are competing they are at the peak physical performance attainable by a human body, but that is not healthy, quite the opposite. Most of them will be suffering in their forties with aches equivalent to people 30 years older because of the strain they put in their bodies while competing at top level. And that not even taking into account contact sports and concussions.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

And I think you're massively overstating the "great number of risks and detriments to their health". Elite athletes generally have longer life spans than the general population: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4534511/

Of course athletes live longer than the general population. They're picked to compete because their genetic predisposition places them at a healthier benefit than others. You're not putting the undernourished, or the overnourished, or the sickly in an Olympic outfit. Fact is though the stress their body goes through in order to get them into competing shape is doing more harm than if they were just doing a more mild program purely for their health and not intended to get them to peak human performance.

 

[agentofatlas]

But the choice isn't whether to compete or not, the choice is only if they're willing to dope or not. Because if doping becomes legal, it becomes a requirement to compete. That's basically what happened in the Tour de France.

And I think you're massively overstating the "great number of risks and detriments to their health". Elite athletes generally have longer life spans than the general population: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4534511/

Are there particular sports with increased dangers? Of course, and there's plenty of conversation about those, and how they can be made safer, or if they should even be played at all. But you know what actually makes those sports more dangerous? Doping! The increase in size and speed offered by doping in contact sports takes already dangerous sports and then makes them even more dangerous!

Hmmm. How do you know that the athletes in the study you linked didn't dope?

 

[Ripenen]

For those who are anti-doping, would you differentiate between types of PEDs?

Some use them to speed recovery from injury or between training sessions. In the case of cycling the PEDs that Armstrong used (EPO) I think increase oxygen saturation in the blood. Is oxygen a bad thing? NFL players use it on the sidelines all the time.

So it's not always about getting faster or stronger. Sometimes it's improving efficiency and endurance, or just speeding recovery so you can train more.

Of course, if you say doping is OK in some cases and not others, it gets very difficult to enforce. However, the current anti-doping rules don't seem particularly well enforced either.

 

[AmFreak]

It's all a big farce:

In surveys of more than 2,000 athletes in 2011, 29% at the world championships and 45% at the Pan-Arab Games said they had used a banned substance in the past year, according to the New York Times.

Athletics body blocks report on drug cheats

One of the authors of above survey/study (google translated from german):

- not allowed to publish the survey/study
- expects number to be even higher than 45% in Rio, cause only the top of the top ("2-3 best athletes") of each country compete there.
- thinks Rio will be the dopest games of all time

 

[azyless]

For those who are anti-doping, would you differentiate between types of PEDs?

Some use them to speed recovery from injury or between training sessions. In the case of cycling the PEDs that Armstrong used (EPO) I think increase oxygen saturation in the blood. Is oxygen a bad thing? NFL players use it on the sidelines all the time.

So it's not always about getting faster or stronger. Sometimes it's improving efficiency and endurance, or just speeding recovery so you can train more.

Of course, if you say doping is OK in some cases and not others, it gets very difficult to enforce. However, the current anti-doping rules don't seem particularly well enforced either.

In the case of speeding up recovery from long injuries (and as long as the drug doesn't have any lasting effect) I wouldn't have an issue with it. Between training sessions, no.
EPO increases the amount of red blood cells in the body, therefore increasing oxygen carrying capacity, it's absolutely improving your athletic performance unnaturally. Oxygen is just oxygen, doesn't change your body in any way, and even the effect on immediate recovery/performance is doubtful at best.

 

[HowardRoark]

thinks Rio will be the dopest games of all time

This made me laugh.

 

[FloatingDivider]

I agree with a lot of the views shared in this thread while I'm not ready to call for the dopelympics like some I also don't think we're far off. I mean with the large impetus placed on performance I imagine the pressure to dope is already sky high.

There's this really weird dichotomy going on where athletes are expected to compete at levels that are not feasible without doping but get penalised if they get caught. Yet if you successfully cheat the system you're rewarded to the tune of millions in sponsorships. In essence the dopelympics are already here but with the additional caveat that it's the person who can dope the most without blipping on a test that wins.

And while it's true that a lot of them tend to get discovered it's usually long after they have reaped the monetary and career benefit of doping.

 

[FLAguy954]

I'm ok with it. It being legal and regulated might help reduce some health risks (which are sometimes overstated). Also some substances are great for injury recovery and might help an athlete prolong his/her career or at very least recover well from years of wear and tear.

This is exactly how I feel. So many people are doing it that it might as well be regulated (Ala weed and other controlled substances).

 

[pizzaparty]

Such a large portion of professional athletes are on PEDs we might as well allow it and regulate it.

 

[FreedomFighter]

If you don't think the majority (85%+) of the athletes at the Olympics are doping, I've got a bridge to sell you.

This.

This is exactly how I feel. So many people are doing it that it might as well be regulated (Ala weed and other controlled substances).

And this.

I'm approaching this whole debate from the standpoint of Portugal's response to rampant drug use. Instead of criminalizing it and throwing people in jail like we do here in the US, switching to a public health focus did wonders for them - I think that approach might possibly work in this case as well.

 

[Goldenroad]

We can at least all agree that a separate "All Drug Olympics" would be amazing right?

 

[FallingEdge]

I'm all for it. I want to see the best of the best push past human limits.

 

[Onemic]

Most athletes dope tbh.

Doesnt have to be on the banned substances list for them to be taking some type of PED. Seems like everyones forgetting that Sharapova's PED that she was taking just got added to the list of banned substances and she was taking it for years.

 

[Kelsdesu]

Your favorite athlete is using something to get an edge.

Period.

 

[JackDT]

Whatever line is set people will cross that line to get an cheating advantage over others. If you allow some more things, then people that take the other things still not allowed will get the advantage. So just pick a line and stick with it. The 'biological passport' thing reasonably effective as maintaining some kind of line, as we we see from the declining times in bicycle racing after it was implemented.

I can only imagine someone in an endurance race with no rules at all... just how many amphetamines can you take to put someone right on the limit of not quite dying, but going harder than they've even gone before...

 

[Lomax]

The biggest problem with "doping as cheating" is that it's entirely arbitrary. Lots of steroids are allowed and used every day. Opioids are abused on almost every level. I'm not saying there shouldn't be regulations, if anything there should be more regulations. But the level of judgment between so-called users and non-users is ridiculous. No athlete is "clean and normal" and just "well trained." That wasn't true 100 years ago and it sure as hell isn't true now.

 

[jasminlovesyoux]

I used to enjoy watching the Olympics when I was younger and oblivious to the steroid/drug use of the athletes. It's quite honestly deplorable to me at this point and I don't get any enjoyment watching them anymore. There's something very artificial about it and it simply bothers me. I know without a doubt 100%, there are many cheaters who just aren't getting caught. It's pretty much a joke of an event in my eyes and a mockery of what the Olympics were.

 

[weekev]

I just feel really bad for the elite athletes who work hard as shit to get where they are, have a tip top diet and work 12 hours a day only to see it taken away by some fucked who has decided to take the easy route.

 

[Lomax]

I just feel really bad for the elite athletes who work hard as shit to get where they are, have a tip top diet and work 12 hours a day only to see it taken away by some fucked who has decided to take the easy route.

Except that myth just isn't real. Maybe you have some "fuckhead" who put in just as much time and effort and had just as much talent (or slightly less) and then takes an "easy addition" which pushes them over the top. But there's tons and tons and tons of other things that factor in as well. Why do you think there's virtually no successful US black swimmers or gymnasts, especially compared to other sports? It isn't because of talent, it's because of opportunity. If you think there's any real "purity" to the competition you're seeing, that you're truly seeing the best of the best and not the result of systemic corruption of one sort or another, you're sadly mistaken.

Again, I'm not saying "doping" is okay. I'm saying the line that we're creating between "victims" and "fuckheads" is entirely arbitrary. And those "fuckheads" are victims too.

 

[darscot]

The cheating is wrong but I also think they are crossing the line on PEDs and testing. Listen to Chael Sonnen talking about some dude making him whip out his dick and allow them to take his blood with no identification back stage in an arena is pretty fucked up. I understand why this is the situation we are in but there needs to be a little common sense. As an athlete you should not have to worry if you going to get banned because you have allergies. They need to sort out the system a little and make everything easier for those that want to be clean. Hard to do when cheating is rampant.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

I just feel really bad for the elite athletes who work hard as shit to get where they are, have a tip top diet and work 12 hours a day only to see it taken away by some fucked who has decided to take the easy route.

Funny that you don't think that every one is those elite athletes isn't on the juice.

 

[FloatingDivider]

As an athlete you should not have to worry if you going to get banned because you have allergies. They need to sort out the system a little and make everything easier for those that want to be clean. Hard to do when cheating is rampant.

If they have proven medical conditions athletes can get exemptions. That being said at this point that system gets abused too. Half of the guys in the UFC apparently have hypogonadism so they can legally crank their testosteron all the way up.

 

[Nere]

I used to enjoy watching the Olympics when I was younger and oblivious to the steroid/drug use of the athletes. It's quite honestly deplorable to me at this point and I don't get any enjoyment watching them anymore. There's something very artificial about it and it simply bothers me. I know without a doubt 100%, there are many cheaters who just aren't getting caught. It's pretty much a joke of an event in my eyes and a mockery of what the Olympics were.

I feel exactly the same. The Olympics have turned into a huge farce in my eyes, where everyone is a cheater. In the end it all comes to who is the best cheater. Where is the spirit of fair competition and the Olympic spirit? Nobody cares so I won't care either.

 

[daxy]

If they have proven medical conditions athletes can get exemptions. That being said at this point that system gets abused too. Half of the guys in the UFC apparently have hypogonadism so they can legally crank their testosteron all the way up.

Similarly, from what I understand many of the athletes in international biathlon competitions are registered as asthmatics, allowing them to use certain medication that improves the oxygenation of blood.

 

[Agremont]

I just feel really bad for the elite athletes who work hard as shit to get where they are, have a tip top diet and work 12 hours a day only to see it taken away by some fucked who has decided to take the easy route.

I don't think doped athletes necessarily work less hard. I think it's more about pushing themselves over their genetic limit.

Not everyone has the genes to be at the very, very top.

 

[EightBitNate]

I just realized how amazing it is to have tons of drugs that offer a free performance boost.

Just pop one on something you're about to eat and poop it out. No one the wiser, or at least no one confrontational enough to say anything.

Spoiler

Being an athlete sucks, can't even break my own record =C

 

[Any Questions]

Doping should not be allowed in any format. Easy.

May the best man or woman win

 

[Fuchsdh]

There's a lot of problems with the "just the best man/woman" ideal, because of non-doping technology advances (should swimmers all be nude? Because those drag-reducing high-tech polymer swimsuits are a competitive advantage not provided to all teams) as well as stuff like the "trans man—where do they compete?" discussions we've had on GAF in the past.

That said, it's a hell of a lot less fatalistic and scary than the "everyone dopes" future. If you encourage it openly you're telling teenagers that the only way they're going to get on a team is if they start juicing, and even assuming more drug use was in the open people are still going to push it to unsafe levels constantly because that's what they want to do to win and get that edge.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

I don't think doping is cheating any more than getting therapy for an injury or training 10 hours a day is. PED's are useless without proper training and diet.

 

[poppabk]

I think there might be a case for raising acceptable levels of some PEDs and allowing them to be taken as long as you don't exceed those limits.
But outright removing a ban on PEDs would be a disaster.

 

[FloatingDivider]

I think there might be a case for raising acceptable levels of some PEDs and allowing them to be taken as long as you don't exceed those limits.
But outright removing a ban on PEDs would be a disaster.

This is essentially already the case afaik. With the inability to reliably detect doping use thanks to masking agents and diuretics clearing the dope out really quickly means the only recourse are biological passports which arent that sensitive and still allow for very unnatural results.

 

[poppabk]

This is essentially already the case afaik. With the inability to reliably detect doping use thanks to masking agents and diuretics clearing the dope out really quickly means the only recourse are biological passports which arent that sensitive and still allow for very unnatural results.

Well most masking agents and diuretics are illegal as well, but yeah there is only so much testing will ever be able to detect. Things like autologous EPO will only ever really be able to be detected through abnormally high levels or ratios to other components, but as successful athletes are likely to be outliers on these tests anyway, it might make sense to allow this kind of doping to a certain extent as long as it is performed safely, and with an upper limit that basically puts all competitors at the same level.

 

[Jay Sosa]

I think it was hilarious how other swimmers reacted to Jefimova. We all know they're not clean either, so please shut the fuck up and get of your high horse.

 

[4Tran]

If doping was legalized, then teenagers looking to make it in sports will start taking substances that will ruin their bodies. I don't think that anyone wants 12-year olds making decisions like that, so there's your case for banning it.

 

[NEO0MJ]

I think it was hilarious how other swimmers reacted to Jefimova. We all know they're not clean either, so please shut the fuck up and get of your high horse.

Yeah. The only difference is that she was caught.