Wonder Woman removed as 'honorary ambassador' for UN after protests

Status
Not open for further replies.
Litan said:
I can relate to people of different races, genders, body type just fine. What I can't relate to is the models being represented to us being white the vast majority of the time.

Maybe you're the one lacking in empathy.
Click to expand...

Wonder Woman exists for already 75 years now.

Of course is well known and so she is perfect for this position. Maybe in a few years an anime character will join as well or there will be growing industry in Africa creating their own role models. But why take the existing ones away because others do not exist yet?
 
neorej said:
They would receive flak for creating an ugly black woman. "Why do black women need to be ugly? Why can't they be gorgeous like the white Wonder Woman?"

If you're going to do it, you need to it separate; a black Wonder Woman with average boobs, an Asian Catwoman, and a Caucasian flatchested ugly Poison Ivy. And Batgirl with Asian, African and European ancestry with big boobs so the heavy-chested women don't feel left out.
Click to expand...

What does the flak matter? Why capitulate to people demanding heroes with perfect faces? That's why you'd be making the changes in the first place, because you wouldn't care about anyone left clamoring for the classic archetypes.

Plus, making them separate seems like implying that other races are too thin-skinned to be able to deal with that. "We made the ugly hero white, because we knew you'd be too upset." Talk about patronizing.
 
UncleSporky said:
Has any major comic publisher developed a character intentionally to be ugly, to be empowering towards those who might not have a perfectly-proportioned face, or might have some scars or genetic defects? Why don't those people see any representation? Everyone has to be beautiful.

I know Marvel has gone in some weird directions at times with X-Men, but I don't think there's ever been a sense of "yeah, that character's ugly just like me!"

Marvel's been redoing a number of its long-standing characters like making a young, black, female Iron Man, black Spider-Man, female Thor. What if DC followed suit and made a flat-chested, black, visually unappealing Wonder Woman?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't call her ugly but Faith from Valiant doesn't have the typical hero body type. She's not thin and she's not thin just due to her power set (i.e being super strong)
 
UncleSporky said:
What does the flak matter? Why capitulate to people demanding heroes with perfect faces? That's why you'd be making the changes in the first place, because you wouldn't care about anyone left clamoring for the classic archetypes.

Plus, making them separate seems like implying that other races are too thin-skinned to be able to deal with that. "We made the ugly hero white, because we knew you'd be too upset." Talk about patronizing.
Click to expand...
Well, why capitulate to people demanding "non-perfect" faces as you put it?
 
kmfdmpig said:
If criticism is invalid or based on ignorance then it should not be listened to. Meeting people with unreasonable demands is not a step toward growth, but a leap toward folly.

DC listened to critics back when they had legitimate critiques and the character/book improved because of it. These critics are using images/depictions that are decades old and arguing out of ignorance, so ignoring them rather than listening to them is the right call.

The fact that people in other countries know the character does not mean that she should change her race to somehow accommodate those other cultures, particularly since she cannot be white/African/Asian/South American all at the same time.
Click to expand...

OK, let us look at this way. The critics are ignorant we both know that isn't it. But is their source of complaint completely Invalid?? Imagine a picture of Wonder Woman in the UN building in Pakistan, what kind of cultural sensibilities is being shown there??

Again, with regards to ethnicity, I would make her people ethnically ambiguous. No one is saying she has to be what western countries often define as racial categories or minorities ( A language that doesn't apply in the international space because white people aren't majority of Earth) She doesn't have to be White, Black, Asian etc. A smart choice is to make her ethnically ambiguous that people cannot pin her to a specific. There are a lot of multi-ethnic people who actually look this way, I would know because I have met them in real life. You cannot pin them to a box because they have traits from almost every tree so are we going to pretend that the artist community have never met an ethnically ambiguous person, have you never met an ethnically ambiguous person?
 
LegendofDragoonLives said:
I forgot he's not even originally from Earth. Another - for him not being relatable. Can we have Trump deport him already?
Click to expand...

I mean but are we we gonna deny that historically these superheroes have worked within the framework of the American monomyth?

kmfdmpig said:
I don't think anyone is saying that this is the most pressing issue of our time (certainly not in a year of Trump, Syria or Brexit). Those that think this was a dumb decision are simply expressing the view that the criticism of Wonder Woman in the petition/some of the posts is poor and that the capitulation by the UN was dumb.
Click to expand...

No doubt, I think the criticism has validity to it but that the UN probably should've kept her, because there are also pros that outweigh it and the majority of people don't give a fuck one way or the other. However the UN felt differently perhaps with good reason, because if you can't stand up for your decisions in the face of criticism than perhaps the decision itself wasn't a good one.

LegendofDragoonLives said:
Because writers have done a shitty job making marketable superheroes that are of color. Also a lot of the 'first' heroes were white so they had little competition at the time and build their cache over many decades. The goal is to write good, marketable characters (of color) that are going to sell, not bitch and whine that the current successful white ones are successful.
Click to expand...

But the UN has nothing to do with the history or the business practices of the American comic industry so I don't understand how any of that is relevant. I mean could it possibly be that there are people that are tired of White people and Eurocentric beauty standards being a universal representation of them after a century of media perpetuating this? Specifically an international organization designed to Unite Nations and not buy into American exceptionalism?

Squalor said:
This one was white. But she was also a woman and queer.

Start a petition to get a black hero there.

Then get another petition when Asian people are unhappy, so get Naruto up there.

Then get another petition when women are unhappy that there are two men and only one woman.

I mean, this can all snowball into ridiculousness really easily.

Are the majority of well-known comic heroes white? Yes. That's because they were created by white men in the middle of the 20th century.

We are making strides now to add more non-token diversity to the universes, which is great.

I don't see an issue with the U.N.'s choosing one who happened to be white as a fictional ambassador, though.

The petition should have been for more fictional ambassadors, not to get rid of Wonder Woman because she doesn't represent everyone. No one represents everyone.
Click to expand...

Talk about a strawman argument. GOT DAMN this is good. LOL
 
Tosyn_88 said:
Also speaking of critics, why is Wonder Woman White?? Same applies to Superman too, this is a legitimate question that I don't think has ever happened in DC headquarters. If an alien or unique race of people came to our world, why would they be automatically be Caucasian??
Click to expand...

Black Superman and Wonder Woman exist already. Hell, Superman is even the President of the United States in that universe and overall he seems to be a better hero than his white counterpart.
 
UncleSporky said:
Has any major comic publisher developed a character intentionally to be ugly, to be empowering towards those who might not have a perfectly-proportioned face, or might have some scars or genetic defects? Why don't those people see any representation? Everyone has to be beautiful.

I know Marvel has gone in some weird directions at times with X-Men, but I don't think there's ever been a sense of "yeah, that character's ugly just like me!"

Marvel's been redoing a number of its long-standing characters like making a young, black, female Iron Man, black Spider-Man, female Thor. What if DC followed suit and made a flat-chested, black, visually unappealing Wonder Woman?
Click to expand...

Big Bertha? Squirrel Girl?

Most of the Great Lakes Avengers....

Eh, you know what, nevermind. They're fun characters but they're more visual jokes first, interesting characters second, as is the way with comic book charaters.
 
UncleSporky said:
For the same reason people want to see representation of other races and body types.
Click to expand...

But they have, the internet, comics and TV are full of them. They are not as well known as Wonder Woman and not as old, but because Wonder Woman exists does not make them disappear.
 
Litan said:
I can relate to people of different races, genders, body type just fine. What I can't relate to is the models being represented to us being white the vast majority of the time.

Maybe you're the one lacking in empathy.
Click to expand...
Those are the ones that are prominent and popular, and that's not going to change until non-white characters are created that become as popular as they are or more popular. What we're seeing now is adults acting like little children where if white characters are popular and getting the limelight, they shouldn't get because characters in my color aren't!!! This is the victim complex whining that really does nothing rather just mindless whining. "If I can't have what I want, you shouldn't either!".

Writers need to create popular, bankable non-white characters that resonate with the general public. Removing the white ones just because as of now for the most part most are white is idiotic. Frankly, the only thing I give a fuck about is that a character is interesting, not anything else. I also get that people want characters that are with their race color etc and that's totally fine. Wanting characters that are currently successful to not be as much just because there's too many of the race I'm not in is illogical, childish mentality on the other hand. Focus should be to create new characters that you can relate more to, not put down the current ones because they don't fit your relatability scale to a fucking t.
 
Tosyn_88 said:
OK, let us look at this way. The critics are ignorant we both know that isn't it. But is their source of complaint completely Invalid?? Imagine a picture of Wonder Woman in the UN building in Pakistan, what kind of cultural sensibilities is being shown there??

Again, with regards to ethnicity, I would make her people ethnically ambiguous. No one is saying she has to be what western countries often define as racial categories or minorities ( A language that doesn't apply in the international space because white people aren't majority of Earth) She doesn't have to be White, Black, Asian etc. A smart choice is to make her ethnically ambiguous that people cannot pin her to a specific. There are a lot of multi-ethnic people who actually look this way, I would know because I have met them in real life. You cannot pin them to a box because they have traits from almost every tree so are we going to pretend that the artist community have never met an ethnically ambiguous person, have you never met an ethnically ambiguous person?
Click to expand...

My daughter is half Caucasian and half Japanese, so yes I'm familiar with different races, mixed race, ethnically ambiguous races, etc... Just because I disagree with what you're saying does not make me some sheltered person unfamiliar with the world.

I see an interesting double standard in what you say. You would be fine with Kamala Khan (a great character) who is 100% Pakistani, but you're not fine with Wonder Woman because she is white. That seems like an odd stance to me. Yes, Wonder Woman is not fully representative of the world, but neither is Kamala Khan. Making every character ethnically ambiguous seems like an extreme choice to satisfy those who are overly focused on whether an individual character represents them, particularly when discussing Wonder Woman who is (at times) so closely linked to Greek mythology.

Representation in fiction/comics matters, but representation should be looked at company/industry wide, not character by character. It's not realistic to have most characters be ethnically ambiguous, so the goal should be to have a range of characters with different backgrounds. So many characters, including Wonder Woman and Kamala Khan gain depth from their cultural background, so making everything ambiguous takes that away.
 
Staf said:
Nah, i'd prefer a good character.
Click to expand...

:o Kamala isn't good. Oh my days, we have run dry boss. I cannot even think of many who fit the feminist archetype in comics aside Wonder Woman, the Marvel girls and maybe .....ooh dear, there isn't many is there?
 
Tosyn_88 said:
:o Kamala isn't good. Oh my days, we have run dry boss. I cannot even think of many who fit the feminist archetype in comics aside Wonder Woman, the Marvel girls and maybe .....ooh dear, there isn't many is there?
Click to expand...

Some of the X-Men fit the bill like Kitty Pryde.
When she's not the damsel in distress (which happens way too often) then Lois Lane has been a strong female character at times, but you're right that there are not enough good female characters in comics.
 
kmfdmpig said:
My daughter is half Caucasian and half Japanese, so yes I'm familiar with different races, mixed race, ethnically ambiguous races, etc... Just because I disagree with what you're saying does not make me some sheltered person unfamiliar with the world.

I see an interesting double standard in what you say. You would be fine with Kamala Khan (a great character) who is 100% Pakistani, but you're not fine with Wonder Woman because she is white. That seems like an odd stance to me. Yes, Wonder Woman is not fully representative of the world, but neither is Kamala Khan. Making every character ethnically ambiguous seems like an extreme choice to satisfy those who are overly focused on whether an individual character represents them, particularly when discussing Wonder Woman who is (at times) so closely linked to Greek mythology.

Representation in fiction/comics matters, but representation should be looked at company/industry wide, not character by character. It's not realistic to have most characters be ethnically ambiguous, so the goal should be to have a range of characters with different backgrounds. So many characters, including Wonder Woman and Kamala Khan gain depth from their cultural background, so making everything ambiguous takes that away.
Click to expand...

Firstly I want to apologise right away if I came off insulting, that wasn't my intension, sometimes words can come across strange via text so my apologies.

I think it is interesting you mention Kamala because I had initially responded to that poster as a joke but that being said, Kamala is Pakistani by canonical origin. Diana is from a female island utopia from an advanced civilisation, there is a difference here from a creative and cultural perspective. Also we have to consider the position of the characters with regards to their popularity. Kamala isn't as popular on the world stage compared to Diana. Diana is HUGE, I mean really HUGE on the world scene, same for Superman and Batman but notice!!! I never mention Bruce Wayne, Why? Because he fits into a structure that makes him identifiable with a specific culture unlike Wonder Woman and Superman.

Also, this narrative isn't anti-White because I feel quite often whenever these types of discussion occurs, there is a defensive stance where people feel that their own safe haven is about to be destroyed which isn't the case. Asking for opportunities for representation isn't removing every White person from everything, why would we do what we are essentially fighting against?

The word I used was ethnically ambiguous, it doesn't mean make a Black Wonder Woman, it doesn't mean making an Asian Wonder Woman, NO not at all. It means making her ethnically ambiguous. If Wonder Woman is Greek, then yes let us make her GREEK, but if she is from some fantasy land female utopia or from a solar system far away from ours, why is she White?? Are we saying that people who come from advanced civilisations are White?
 
lightskintwin said:
Read the article linked to the OP would probably be my first step, but then again I'm kinda weird.
Click to expand...

I read the article. It didn't clear anything up.

What does the characters "physical proportions" have to do with negating the characters long association with the UN in the comic book universe, in addition to the character's long standing work as an envoy of peace and figure of diplomacy?
 
You Are Viewtiful said:
Oh, I see. When I was a kid and saw those clothes with red/blue/white with the stars, I basically saw her as a female Captain America.
Click to expand...

You're not wrong though. Until the JLA Animated Series, I to grew up thinking she was patriot American superhero whose power was a truth lasso and reflecting bullet.

My mind was blown when I found out she could fly and go toe to toe with Superman. It took years for me to remove the old vision of her.

The stars and stripes outfit clearly make her an American superhero. Anyone who denies that is being revisionist.

Comic people need to step out of their bubble for a moment and realize to most people in the world, Wonder Women is Linda Carter, the Hanna Barbara cartoon version, and more modern the JLA animated. Comics are niche, but TV reaches everyone. Comic were her start, but TV made her a cultural icon.

That why Kamala Khan suggestions are laughable. The world has no idea who she is. Only current comic readers.

Far as removing her, I'm torn. She not an ideal character to use, but for female, she is the
 
Understandable decision. Why even have a fictional character in such a position. I'd rather have a proper female representative.
 
SpaceWolf said:
I read the article. It didn't clear anything up.

What does the characters "physical proportions" have to do with negating the characters long association with the UN in the comic book universe, in addition to the character's long standing work as an envoy of peace and figure of diplomacy?
Click to expand...

I guess it's fighting back against this idealized body for women. Y'know the coke bottle shape.
 
Don't worry we can fix this
tumblr_nlfbmvRPrz1rt1u7lo1_1280.jpg
Click to expand...
 
OmegaX said:
Black Superman and Wonder Woman exist already. Hell, Superman is even the President of the United States in that universe and overall he seems to be a better hero than his white counterpart.
Click to expand...

I don't think that is necessarily good either. For an alien who came from a far away solar system, he should be ethnically ambiguous, not Black, not White, not Asian, not insert ethnic origin here.
 
I don't know, seems like a reasonable decision to me. They have to consider what Wonder Woman is perceived as globally, rather than just by Americans/current up-to-date comic book readers. I get why they may not be all on board with her as an icon for many other parts of the world.

Also, frankly, I'm surprised people are denying that her consuming has a large titillation component to it. It's cool if you think her character transcends that (I'm sure it does, I'm not much of a comic reader but I'm just going to assume it does), but I feel it's really hard to deny that aspect of it. That's far from unique to her when it comes to female comic book characters though, obviously.

Edit: yeah, and the American-centricness of the character probably doesn't sit well with everyone for a global, UN icon, especially in the current climate.
 
Zen_Arcade said:
That's a pretty dumb reason considering the circumstances.
Click to expand...

Irminsul said:
Shouldn't that mean a woman doesn't need to have an "idealised body" to get a high position, not that it's impossible for those who do?
Click to expand...

I think it's in combination with her being White, and though it doesn't explicitly mention it; I have no doubt her being an American creation with the flag symbolically used as part of her uniform played a part as well.
 
lightskintwin said:
I think it's in combination with her being White, and though it doesn't explicitly mention it; I have no doubt her being an American creation with the flag symbolically used as part of her uniform played a part as well.
Click to expand...
Again, all of these things are pretty petty excuses for complaints considering the circumstances.
 
Zen_Arcade said:
Again, all of these things are pretty petty excuses for complaints considering the circumstances.
Click to expand...

To you and me it may be petty, but to others it may not be especially those in the international community. I don't know. I'm kinda surprised this was even on anybody's radar. This seems like one of those things that happen all the time and people pay no mind to it.

I would love to see an age/gender/race/ethnicity/nationality breakdown of all the people who signed the petition for further research.
 
lightskintwin said:
To you and me it may be petty, but to others they may not be especially those in the international community. I don't know. I'm kinda surprised this was even on anybody's radar. This seems like one of those things that happen and people pay no mind to it.

I would love to see an age/gender/race/ethnicity/nationality breakdown of all the people who signed the petition for further research.
Click to expand...
Just because someone else sees something as reasonable doesn't mean it's not petty when viewed in a larger scope. By that logic everything is simultaneously petty and reasonable and both words no longer mean anything.
 
Trokil said:
Wonder Woman exists for already 75 years now.

Of course is well known and so she is perfect for this position. Maybe in a few years an anime character will join as well or there will be growing industry in Africa creating their own role models. But why take the existing ones away because others do not exist yet?
Click to expand...
Why do we need Asia or Africa for Asian or black characters? Last time I checked America was the most diverse country in the world. Plenty of great non-white characters exist in comics and other media. We don't have to wait for them to be created, they already exist.
But as usual, white characters are always the default and front of the line when doing things like this.


LegendofDragoonLives said:
Those are the ones that are prominent and popular, and that's not going to change until non-white characters are created that become as popular as they are or more popular. What we're seeing now is adults acting like little children where if white characters are popular and getting the limelight, they shouldn't get because characters in my color aren't!!! This is the victim complex whining that really does nothing rather just mindless whining. "If I can't have what I want, you shouldn't either!".

Writers need to create popular, bankable non-white characters that resonate with the general public. Removing the white ones just because as of now for the most part most are white is idiotic. Frankly, the only thing I give a fuck about is that a character is interesting, not anything else. I also get that people want characters that are with their race color etc and that's totally fine. Wanting characters that are currently successful to not be as much just because there's too many of the race I'm not in is illogical, childish mentality on the other hand. Focus should be to create new characters that you can relate more to, not put down the current ones because they don't fit your relatability scale to a fucking t.
Click to expand...

It's mindless whining for you because you don't fucking get it! Its more like " why do you have to get everything? Why can't I get shit?"

Wonder Woman not being Ambassador doesn't create a shortage of white role models or white representation.
Minority kids need this shit. White kids have always had it in excess.
 
Litan said:
Wonder Woman not being Ambassador doesn't create a shortage of white role models or white representation.
Click to expand...
Wonder Woman not being an ambassador also doesn't do shit for non-white fictional characters. It's not like there's only one "honorary ambassador" that could ever be named.
 
Litan said:
It's mindless whining for you because you don't fucking get it! Its more like " why do you have to get everything? Why can't I get shit?"

Wonder Woman not being Ambassador doesn't create a shortage of white role models or white representation.
Minority kids need this shit. White kids have always had it in excess.
Click to expand...
No, but it does take representation away from women, who are an under represented group themselves.
 
Irminsul said:
Wonder Woman not being an ambassador also doesn't do shit for non-white fictional characters. It's not like there's only one "honorary ambassador" that could ever be named.
Click to expand...
Nothing except let the people making these decisions know that people want non-white characters in these roles too.
 
Litan said:
Nothing except let the people making these decisions know that people want non-white characters in these roles too.
Click to expand...
I'm sure the lesson they'll be learning is that, and not "better do nothing lest someone else finds something objectionable".
 
Zen_Arcade said:
Just because someone else sees something as reasonable doesn't mean it's not petty when viewed in a larger scope. By that logic everything is simultaneously petty and reasonable and both words no longer mean anything.
Click to expand...

The irony is your last sentence has more truth in it then you ever meant it to have. LOL
 
the_batman said:
kids have huge imaginations, i don't think they have trouble relating to superheroes.
Click to expand...

Actual, I did. As girl, there only was Wonder Women (of the 70's) and she was lame. All she had was stupid lasso and a Invisible Jet that did nothing. Carter could deflect bullets. That nothing compared to Superman or Green Lantern. Batman was the world's greatest detective aka he was smart! Even Aquaman did more with is summoning sea life. Wonder Women flew places and tied people up. Boring.

Sure, I had no problem relating to male superheroes. If I didn't like one, I could choose from dozens of other. But Wonder Women was all I had, and she was lame.
 
Litan said:
If white women are an under-represented group, what does that make women of color?
Click to expand...
The fact that you're complaining because it's not the exact right representation that you personally want is sad. WW can be an empowering figure for all women regardless of race and you're more transfixed on the color of her skin then you are of the idea that a woman could be representitve of all women regardless of the color of theirs.
lightskintwin said:
The irony is your last sentence has more truth in it then you ever meant it to have. LOL
Click to expand...
Nah, if you turned this situation around and made it a statement about something negative happening to a group of minoroties people here surely would not brush it off as "Well I guess different things are just important to different people."

They would be here shitting on the people who don't see the minority issue as important and deem the person as selfish.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

  • Poll
Does it count as cheating if it's another woman? ♀️
2 3
102
658
E-Cat replied
Cream - Outside Woman Blues
1
475
HRK69 replied
Google has removed Ublock from Chome now
Drama 
42
3K
Soodanim replied
Grummz drama after journalists discover his porn folder for article research
Drama Cringe  2 3
109
8K
Dr.Morris79 replied
Can actors legally forbid IP holders to use their likeness using CGI after their death?
19
191
tamago84 replied
Top Bottom