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[Kraftwerk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

Gaf has quite a few intellectuals amongst it, such as CHEEZMO™. Would like to see what you guys think, and read your opinions. Extra points for someone who knows a few languages.

I myself speak 4 languages, and you could say I strongly believe in this concept.

It does truly change even how you present yourself. When I am speaking english, I am calmer and relaxed. When I speak in another language, I find myself to be very angry and brutish. That is what I have been told by many people who have lived with me throughout the years. I am not doing any of this on purpose. My whole thought process and perception changes. New ideas are formed when thinking in a particular language.

For example, all my ideas are in my native language, but when thinking about what to do tomorrow, or just planning groceries; I think in english.

Anyone experience anything similar?

 

[Flying Toaster]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

Gaf has quite a few intellectuals amongst it, such as CHEEZMO™. Would like to see what you guys think, and read your opinions. Extra points for someone who knows a few languages.

I myself speak 4 languages, and you could say I strongly believe in this concept.

It does truly change even how you present yourself. When I am speaking english, I am calmer and relaxed. When I speak in another language, I find myself to be very angry and brutish. That is what I have been told by many people who have lived with me throughout the years. I am not doing any of this on purpose. My whole thought process and perception changes. New ideas are formed when thinking in a particular language.

For example, all my ideas are in my native language, but when thinking about what to do tomorrow, or just planning groceries; I think in english.

Anyone experience anything similar?

I speak 3 languages and agree with the concept. You can take it one step further into the world of computers. Knowledge and use of programming languages lead to ways one structures themselves in their daily work habbits. I know it sounds a bit out there but if you know people who use object oriented languages daily versus somone that writes basic scripts just seeing how they process work from the sidelines is interesting.

 

[The Technomancer]

I speak 3 languages and agree with the concept. You can take it one step further into the world of computers. Knowledge and use of programming languages lead to ways one structures themselves in their daily work habbits. I know it sounds a bit out there but if you know people who use object oriented languages daily versus somone that writes basic scripts just seeing how they process work from the sidelines is interesting.

Now you're starting to blur the line a bit because while I fully agree (I've experienced it myself) I could also say that my engineering education has similarly restructured how I approach everything in my life.

 

[Escape Goat]

What languages do you guys speak?

 

[Clydefrog]

I'm quite good at Spanglish and can count to 10 in Hawaiian

 

[The Omega Man]

I am fluent in 4 languages (english, german, spanish and french) and can definitely relate to this concept.

OP you'll get most of the feedback from Gaffers from Europe or other regions beside USA.

 

[Flying Toaster]

Now you're starting to blur the line a bit because while I fully agree (I've experienced it myself) I could also say that my engineering education has similarly restructured how I approach everything in my life.

I should have explained myself better. The programmers I work with are from a non engineering background. Engineering in general and especially in America really does open up completely new avenues to how everything in life is approached. I wish I worked with engineers life would be a lot simpler.

 

[Mordeccai]

I live in the good old u s and a!

Needless to say, I have no thoughts for you to love about this subject.

I do, however, love women who speak spanish.

 

[Jenga]

i agree OP everyone who doesn't speak english is an uncultured brute

 

[Kraftwerk]

What languages do you guys speak?

My native language is Dari. I can speak Farsi also, which is a different version of Dari. Similar to American English and British English, but taken a step further.

I learned to speak English, Hindi-urdu/ Pakistan, Arabic.

I used to be good at German, but not having any interaction with anyone speaking German over the years made mine very weak, I can still understand it when I see a German movie, but I am much slower.

Would love to learn another language before I'm 25. I know the basics of French, maybe I should persuade it further.

 

[The Technomancer]

I should have explained myself better. The programmers I work with are from a non engineering background. Engineering in general and especially in America really does open up completely new avenues to how everything in life is approached. I wish I worked with engineers life would be a lot simpler.

Yeah, but programming and engineering philosophy have a very similar intellectual core, focused around two aspects I like to call "toolbox thinking" and "modular awareness"

I think we're diverting from the topic a bit though. I definitely think that the way certain languages are structured and the cultural connotations that words and phrases develop has an effect on how people think when thinking "in" that language.

 

[Ezalc]

I speak two languages, and I just feel that what you said about talking calmer in one language than another is due to the languages' inherent differences. English is a very easy language to express yourself, there are many words which mean the same thing so it gives you leeway when it comes to sounding more calm and sophisticated or on the other hand angry and agitated. The other language I speak is Portuguese, and many times when I'm doing a writing assignment I get frustrated since I can't properly express myself through this other language due to the lack of words, different grammatical rules and the like.

I do agree though that even with having moved away from the US, I still primarily think, dream in English even when I'm in class listening to a lecture.

 

[Cyan]

Not a fan of Sapir-Whorf as it's commonly used (especially as regards justifying political correctness), and as I understand it, much of the research on it has been bullshit--people with a predetermined conclusion who skewed things to make it come out right. But there's obviously some truth to the idea that language influences thought.

The neuronal structure of the brain means that things that are associated become attached. Concepts, often unspoken, can become inseparably attached to words. See: Lakoff on framing and metaphor.

 

[Zaptruder]

Yeah sure.

I mean there's that one culture in italy (sicily?) where people don't even have future tense verbs. Of course it's a reflection of their culture - and it's a rather conspicuous example - but when you get into a certain language - certain ideas are easier to expresss then other ideas; and the ease with which any particular idea can be expressed differs from language to language. And that ease in itself helps to shape the way people think and express themselves.

There's an interplay between conceptualization and words such that we use words to express our concepts... but we rote learn words, phrases and such - that over time, even if those words and phrases were used to imperfectly express our feelings, with repeated usage, we'll begin to align our feelings with those words and phrases; whatever additional shades of meaning that those words and phrases may bear may also come to colour our intentions.

In a language where they don't have the concept of brown... how the hell are you going to even describe the word to native people? Yeah... that... dark or desaturated reddish to yellowish hue.

 

[Escape Goat]

My native language is Dari. I can speak Farsi also, which is a different version of Dari. Similar to American English and British English, but taken a step further.

I learned to speak English, Hindi-urdu/ Pakistan, Arabic.

I used to be good at German, but not having any interaction with anyone speaking German over the years made mine very weak, I can still understand it when I see a German movie, but I am much slower.

Would love to learn another language before I'm 25. I know the basics of French, maybe I should persuade it further.

Sheesh. Thats a lot. I wish I had learned a second language growing up as a child. It woud have been so much easier.

 

[Kraftwerk]

I speak two languages, and I just feel that what you said about talking calmer in one language than another is due to the languages' inherent differences. English is a very easy language to express yourself, there are many words which mean the same thing so it gives you leeway when it comes to sounding more calm and sophisticated or on the other hand angry and agitated. The other language I speak is Portuguese, and many times when I'm doing a writing assignment I get frustrated since I can't properly express myself through this other language due to the lack of words, different grammatical rules and the like.

I do agree though that even with having moved away from the US, I still primarily think, dream in English even when I'm in class listening to a lecture.

Good point regarding expression. I have hit that wall many times. Incredibly frustrating.

 

[Angry Fork]

My native language is Dari. I can speak Farsi also, which is a different version of Dari. Similar to American English and British English, but taken a step further.

I learned to speak English, Hindi-urdu/ Pakistan, Arabic.

I used to be good at German, but not having any interaction with anyone speaking German over the years made mine very weak, I can still understand it when I see a German movie, but I am much slower.

Would love to learn another language before I'm 25. I know the basics of French, maybe I should persuade it further.

wut @ learning all that before 25. I'm jealous. How did you learn them and how long did each take (to learn enough to have a decent conversation with a random person for example).

 

[RiZ III]

I was just talking about this to my wife the other day. I didn't even know such a theory existed. We were talking about how the two languages we speak can be so different in the way they describe things and so on.

 

[Puddles]

Wait, Cheezmo? Cheezmo the furry and Timedog's champion? That Cheezmo?

 

[weekend_warrior]

I can speak one language, and barely at that.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

I'd really love to learn another language to the point of fluency.

German is always the one that is forefront in my mind, partly because of my German ancestry and partly because I just like Germany, lol.

I used to know a little due to it being on the curriculum at my school, but it was very little and I've forgotten most of it now :/

A few months ago I got really into the idea of learning Pashto for some unexplained reason, but that would be silly given that it wouldn't have any real use outside of the possibility of becoming a translator for MI5 (which I actually saw a job posting for recently).

But in terms of learning a language that's practical - I would like to try something like Arabic or Urdu, what with the makeup of ethnic minorities in this country.

Unfortunately I'm too lazy and lack the proper motivation to seriously pursue bi/multilingualism.

Wait, Cheezmo? Cheezmo the furry and Timedog's champion? That Cheezmo?

I voted blame space, FYI.

 

[ColtraineGF]

I wouldn't have any strong statements one way or the other (I'm at a maybe low-medium level of Japanese, and can understand a little bit of Spanish), but I'd say that it depends on the culture, or how your mind works, more than the language.

Like, when you learn how a language is used, you might get something like, 'This is how people who speak x say this', or 'this isn't usually said this way in x, so people say this in this way instead'.

Language is an aspect/extension of culture IMO, you would probably see different usages of a language, depending on where it's used and with who. It may be that, in learning the language, either you adopt a similar mindset of the people who use the language primarily, you assign a certain speaking style to it because either that's what you think people who speak the language talk like, or you find that a certain style of talking comes easier to you, because of feelings/thoughts attributed to the language itself, or you don't know how you would say something, so you say whatever comes closest depending on your vocabulary.

But I'm not a linguist, so the above might not hold in all cases.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I'm a native-level user of both English and Japanese and have dabbled in a few other languages, but not to fluency.

I definitely think there is some truth to the linguistic relativity theory. Since languages are the extension of a culture, it's only natural that you will be more in tune with, or more prone to relate with the culture of the language you are speaking.

I also believe that you can never really understand another culture without living in it and speaking its language. This is also why a perfect translation can never exist.

Anyway, I don't think it's really possible to even comment on this topic unless you are at least bilingual.

 

[Kraftwerk]

wut @ learning all that before 25. I'm jealous. How did you learn them and how long did each take (to learn enough to have a decent conversation with a random person for example).

Heh. I just happened to be honest. This is due to my parents jobs back then. We moved around every few years, so I had to adapt. The first one I learned was English. When I arrived in India for the first time, I spoke english only for the first year. After a year I suddenly realized " Hold on a second, I can understand Hindi now.WTF???! " Bit by bit I picked it up. Happened in all the cases.

The broken German I learned is my pesonal achievement. When I was in Iran, Internet speeds were SHIT. I'm talking 2kb/s downloads. So downloading or streaming was out of the question. We had a German channel on the satellite, and it started showing the entire Dragonball series one episode per day. I watched it everyday, and after a while I began to understand them. I couldn't read or write German, but when I saw and heard german, I understood it. Very weird. I found a few german friend and mingled with them, but that interaction has been missing for a while, therefore my German becoming broken again =/

I know everyone says the same time, but to learn a language, in my opinion the best tool is: Surrounding yourself in the environment of that language. Find a movie or a tv show you like, then find the dubbed/subbed version in the language you want to learn. It won't be a chore anymore.

For example; your avatar is from Dumb and Dumber. If you watch it in a German Dub you will still understand it.

You know the story and concept of the movie.

In the scene where the 'Gasman' tells them to "SHUUUUT UP" in the car, he will yell "Schnaaaaaaaauzeeee!!!!!!!!!!" or something similar. Then your brain will go "oh, so X words means Shut Up"

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

As i'm slowly approaching a modicum of fluency in German (living here) my brain has definitely been restructured in, without a doubt. the way i think, form thoughts, perceive things just 'feels' different. And due to the antithetical nature of the two languages in terms of rules (English is like a loose prostitute in terms of grammar) it's a real strange feeling to speak a heavily bound language.

my goal is subsequently Spanish and French

 

[heyf00L]

These old theories like this are based upon an over-application of the theory of evolution. They did this in order to prove that their culture was more evolved and thus superior. Here "scientists" felt like they could apply it to language in order to prove that civilized people have more advanced language and therefore could think higher thoughts that "primitive" people were incapable of. This is completely false.
A thought can be put into any language, although some will be "better" at it requiring fewer words. I'll think of an example. OK, ancient Greek had a number of words that might be translated as "love" in English. But just read the page, written in English, and you can understand all of that. Even if it takes a paragraph to explain one word, it can still (and always) be done. You can now conceptualize ancient Greek better, but do you really have new categories of thought?
Or here's another example. The term "lulz" was coined because English doesn't have a word like Schadensfreude that means laughing at another's expense. But just because we don't have a word that means that, does that prevent us from understanding the concept? Not at all. At best having the word Schadensfreude gives you an advantage in recognizing that a thing exists, but lacking the word doesn't prevent anyone from recognizing it either.
How come we can talk about general relativity in a language that existed way before such thoughts were ever thought? Sometimes we create new words, but for the most part we don't.

Or think of it this way, how could you ever learn a language if that language teaches you how to think? You need to think the right way in order to understand the language, but you have to know the language in order to think that way. You'd never be able to learn any language ever, not even a mother tongue.

 

[daffy]

I like how you said a few intellectuals and listed one, and CHEEZMO AT THAT LAWL!! (No, love that guy )

I don't think you have to be intellectual to understand it, I'm dumb as bricks, for instance. Its definitely true and happens to me several times a day. I'm a lot nicer and natural in French, both online and off, whereas in both UK and NA English its more umm less nicer than I have intended? I think i intend to be playful but it comes off as mad. So im a believer of this weak version here you've linked. The strong one seems a bit more far fetched. I mean i know what i want to say it's just a bit stronger, not an entirely new thought process or anything. Maybe, I guess.

 

[BocoDragon]

These old theories like this are based upon an over-application of the theory of evolution. They did this in order to prove that their culture was more evolved and thus superior. Here "scientists" felt like they could apply it to language in order to prove that civilized people have more advanced language and therefore could think higher thoughts that "primitive" people were incapable of. This is completely false.
A thought can be put into any language, although some will be "better" at it requiring fewer words. I'll think of an example. OK, ancient Greek had a number of words that might be translated as "love" in English. But just read the page, written in English, and you can understand all of that. Even if it takes a paragraph to explain one word, it can still (and always) be done. You can now conceptualize ancient Greek better, but do you really have new categories of thought?
Or here's another example. The term "lulz" was coined because English doesn't have a word like Schadensfreude that means laughing at another's expense. But just because we don't have a word that means that, does that prevent us from understanding the concept? Not at all. At best having the word Schadensfreude gives you an advantage in recognizing that a thing exists, but lacking the word doesn't prevent anyone from recognizing it either.
How come we can talk about general relativity in a language that existed way before such thoughts were ever thought? Sometimes we create new words, but for the most part we don't.

Or think of it this way, how could you ever learn a language if that language teaches you how to think? You need to think the right way in order to understand the language, but you have to know the language in order to think that way. You'd never be able to learn any language ever, not even a mother tongue.

There are certainly concepts that exist in one language but do not in another. The whole concept of loan words is that a particular culture didn't have a word for something until they learned it directly from another culture, and took their word for it directly.

Could that culture have conceived of the concept before they encountered the word for it? Probably. Would they have tended to frame their experience with that concept easily without the word being readily available? Probably not.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

These old theories like this are based upon an over-application of the theory of evolution. They did this in order to prove that their culture was more evolved and thus superior. Here "scientists" felt like they could apply it to language in order to prove that civilized people have more advanced language and therefore could think higher thoughts that "primitive" people were incapable of. This is completely false.
A thought can be put into any language, although some will be "better" at it requiring fewer words. I'll think of an example. OK, ancient Greek had a number of words that might be translated as "love" in English. But just read the page, written in English, and you can understand all of that. Even if it takes a paragraph to explain one word, it can still (and always) be done. You can now conceptualize ancient Greek better, but do you really have new categories of thought?
Or here's another example. The term "lulz" was coined because English doesn't have a word like Schadensfreude that means laughing at another's expense. But just because we don't have a word that means that, does that prevent us from understanding the concept? Not at all. At best having the word Schadensfreude gives you an advantage in recognizing that a thing exists, but lacking the word doesn't prevent anyone from recognizing it either.
How come we can talk about general relativity in a language that existed way before such thoughts were ever thought? Sometimes we create new words, but for the most part we don't.

Or think of it this way, how could you ever learn a language if that language teaches you how to think? You need to think the right way in order to understand the language, but you have to know the language in order to think that way. You'd never be able to learn any language ever, not even a mother tongue.

I don't think you need to take such a negative few of the theory. Obviously, just about anyone is capable of learning anything. With that said, cultures can be very different and have certain aspects that are specific to that culture. Sure, you can explain such aspects using another language, but I don't think anyone can really come to a full understanding of such things without being immersed in that culture and using the language that is an extension of it.

 

[heyf00L]

There are certainly concepts that exist in one language but do not in another. The whole concept of loan words is that a particular culture didn't have a word for something until they learned it directly from another culture, and took their word for it directly.

Could that culture have conceived of the concept before they encountered the word for it? Probably. Would they have tended to frame their experience with that concept easily without the word being readily available? Probably not.

If they need to "frame their experience" (I'm not even sure what you mean by this) around a concept, they'll come up with a phrase for it. If another accessible language has a word for it, maybe they'll take that. We don't have all the Greek words for love, so we say things like "I love him like a brother" and all is understood.

I don't think you need to take such a negative few of the theory. Obviously, just about anyone is capable of learning anything. With that said, cultures can be very different and have certain aspects that are specific to that culture. Sure, you can explain such aspects using another language, but I don't think anyone can really come to a full understanding of such things without being immersed in that culture and using the language that is an extension of it.

You say "obviously", but this was not obvious. For a while it was the scientific opinion that "primitive" people were not capable of higher thought. And what's the relationship between language and culture? Cultures have been forced to change language many times. It doesn't change the culture.
I take a negative view of the origin of the theory. The more acceptable, watered down version of "it helps you think in new ways" is sorta OK, but still silly.

 

[Fantomen]

Born, raised and living in Sweden.
I have been around English since i was 8 or 9 I think. I read in English all the time, on the web, tv shows/movies, and school materials.
Also tried to learn German in school, quite easy to learn, though it is neglected by now. I want to relearn it, cool language.
I speak Swedish everyday, but most of my thoughts are in English, it's weird but nearly natural for me by now.

 

[heyf00L]

I like how you said a few intellectuals and listed one, and CHEEZMO AT THAT LAWL!! (No, love that guy )

I don't think you have to be intellectual to understand it, I'm dumb as bricks, for instance. Its definitely true and happens to me several times a day. I'm a lot nicer and natural in French, both online and off, whereas in both UK and NA English its more umm less nicer than I have intended? I think i intend to be playful but it comes off as mad. So im a believer of this weak version here you've linked. The strong one seems a bit more far fetched. I mean i know what i want to say it's just a bit stronger, not an entirely new thought process or anything. Maybe, I guess.

That doesn't really fit the theory. This isn't your inability to think nicely; it's your lack of knowledge of the nuances and connotations of words or phrases.

Perhaps it's related to the fact that French-derived words in English usually carry a high-class connotation. If you prefer to use cognates, you might come off as snobbish. A good example is the French-derived phrase "a cordial salutation" verses the German-derived "a hearty welcome". But this won't make you sound angry, just a little odd.

 

[Kraftwerk]

If they need to "frame their experience" (I'm not even sure what you mean by this) around a concept, they'll come up with a phrase for it. If another accessible language has a word for it, maybe they'll take that. We don't have all the Greek words for love, so we say things like "I love him like a brother" and all is understood.


You say "obviously", but this was not obvious. For a while it was the scientific opinion that "primitive" people were not capable of higher thought. And what's the relationship between language and culture? Cultures have been forced to change language many times. It doesn't change the culture.
I take a negative view of the origin of the theory. The more acceptable, watered down version of "it helps you think in new ways" is sorta OK, but still silly.

I don't think it is silly at all. I mean, have you experienced it first hand? I myself and many others have. It gives you new ways to think and express yourself.

It's not always as simple as translating love. Try explaining Irony to someone from my country. It is impossible. They have no idea of this concept. Sarcasm is also similar.

The definition of Irony in farsi based on dictionaries is "joke". I tried to explain it to many but they could not understand it.

I personally, did now know about the concept, nor did understand the word until I was really fluent in English.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

i'm really confused at what you are even trying to 'prove' here, that language doesn't shape thought and ways of thinking? how many languages do you speak?

language is a reflection of the culture, if these hypothetical victim 'primitive' cultures you are throwing out don't have words for cars or whatever, it's because their social situation completely lacks a need for them and instead create a lexicon based on their realities. A "civilized" western culture is not going to have the same lexicon for daily life as someone in a tribal society, that's a fact. Imagine trying to explain different types of cars, brands, whatever, to a herder and then try to comprehend the vast and deep nuances of something as 'uncivilized' (as you're saying anyway) as herding.

Language and culture reflect and change eachother, that is basically as much of a fact as a social science fact can be. The degree to which language shapes our own brain may be limited, but it is there, changes what you focus on, how your thoughts form, etc. This doesn't make learning a second or 10th language 'harder' or 'impossible' as you've for no reason thrown out.

Why do you think that certain languages are praised for their expressive qualities? Completely leaving out mechanical aspects of a language, a language/culture which values certain ideas can in greater depth and feeling explain certain themes than others or simply can express ideas in a way another language can't. I mean that's basically accepted, unless you think the fact that a paragraph which 'translates' a certain word nullifies any differences in languages and we should just switch to Interlingua or Lobjan, so we can completely throw out the human, semantic experience of language.

 

[miksar]

GAF never ceases to amaze it. Never expected to see the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis mentioned here.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

You say "obviously", but this was not obvious. For a while it was the scientific opinion that "primitive" people were not capable of higher thought. And what's the relationship between language and culture? Cultures have been forced to change language many times. It doesn't change the culture.
I take a negative view of the origin of the theory. The more acceptable, watered down version of "it helps you think in new ways" is sorta OK, but still silly.

It's obvious now. I'm talking about the theory in the context of today. The theory may have been misused by certain people in the past (and the present?), but I don't think that takes away from the theory itself.

Also, how can you say that changing a language does not change a culture? You can't be serious. Sure, it may not have been the change in language per se that caused the culture to change, but whatever event forces a culture to change its language also brings about huge change in that culture.

For example, England and its language were quite different before and after the Normal conquest. The cultures and languages of countries in South America were very different before and after the invasion of Europeans.

Why do you think that certain languages are praised for their expressive qualities? Completely leaving out mechanical aspects of a language, a language/culture which values certain ideas can in greater depth and feeling explain certain themes than others or simply can express ideas in a way another language can't. I mean that's basically accepted, unless you think the fact that a paragraph which 'translates' a certain word nullifies any differences in languages and we should just switch to Interlingua or Lobjan, so we can completely throw out the human, semantic experience of language.

This right here. There are certain things that can only be expressed in certain languages. The concepts can certainly be explained with another language, but it's really not the same thing.

 

[Kraftwerk]

A book series I'm currently reading touches on this briefly. It's called The Culture, and it is about a pan-human civilisation that are incredibly advanced.

In one chapter they talk about their language which is called Marain. It was created by MINDS ( super advance sentient AI's that live in hyperspace )

Marain is the Culture's shared language. Designed by early Minds, the Culture believes (or perhaps has proved, or else actively made true) the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis that language influences thought, and Marain was designed to exploit this effect, while also "appealing to poets, pedants, engineers and programmers". Designed to be represented either in binary or symbol-written form, Marain is also regarded as an aesthetically pleasing language by the Culture. The symbols of the Marain alphabet can be displayed in three-by-three grids of binary (yes/no, black/white) dots and thus correspond to nine-bit wide binary numbers

I wonder if we will ever reach that stage. To have a supercomputer take all the human data, the brain etc and create the perfect language.

 

[dinazimmerman]

GAF never ceases to amaze it. Never expected to see the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis mentioned here.

Not the first time it's come up: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=25415062&postcount=99

 

[SapientWolf]

GAF never ceases to amaze it. Never expected to see the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis mentioned here.

Radio Lab did a nice episode on Words that gave legitimacy to the idea that language influences thinking.

 

[Neo C.]

I speak 4 languages (german, french, english, chinese), french the least fluent. 6, if you count dialect (cantonese as native language, swiss german). Currently learning japanese, so that would make 7 at max.

There's certainly great differences just by switching from one language to an other, but a lot depends on your own vocabulary, your own culture etc.

For example, I can't curse in cantonese, so my cantonese is nice and friendly. But everyone knows that cantonese can be spoken very loudly, aggressively and acidly.

 

[Kraftwerk]

I speak 4 languages (german, french, english, chinese), french the least fluent. 6, if you count dialect (cantonese as native language, swiss german). Currently learning japanese, so that would make 7 at max.

There's certainly great differences just by switching from one language to an other, but a lot depends on your own vocabulary, your own culture etc.

For example, I can't curse in cantonese, so my cantonese is nice and friendly. But everyone knows that cantonese can be spoken very loudly, aggressively and acidly.

Goddamn. Thats a lot of knowledge

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Language is a means by which we express the thoughts that are inside of our head in mutually intelligible ways. If concepts/terms appear in one language but not another, it's likely because the people of one language simply had no need for a word like that because there was nothing in their environment/existence that required such a word. However, given that there are things fundamental to every human language, I very much doubt that there are particularly strong limitations on human thought from language-to-language.

 

[Kraftwerk]

Language is a means by which we express the thoughts that are inside of our head in mutually intelligible ways. If concepts/terms appear in one language but not another, it's likely because the people of one language simply had no need for a word like that because there was nothing in their environment/existence that required such a word. However, given that there are things fundamental to every human language, I very much doubt that there are particularly strong limitations on human thought from language-to-language.

Well, As I stated earlier, concepts like Irony are non-existent in my language. You cannot even begin to describe to them.

Now Imagine a much more complex concept, how will you explain it when you can't explain some very basic and fundamental things. Sometimes even on this forum, I cannot reply to a discussion because of that reason. I know what I want to say in my head, and even tho I know 4 languages; I cannot express them in words. As if the words have not been created by man yet. it is incredibly frustrating.

 

[vas_a_morir]

I speak 4 languages (german, french, english, chinese), french the least fluent. 6, if you count dialect (cantonese as native language, swiss german). Currently learning japanese, so that would make 7 at max.

There's certainly great differences just by switching from one language to an other, but a lot depends on your own vocabulary, your own culture etc.

For example, I can't curse in cantonese, so my cantonese is nice and friendly. But everyone knows that cantonese can be spoken very loudly, aggressively and acidly.

I've been studying Japanese every day for 5 years, and feel nowhere near fluent. I even lived there for a year and attended a University in Tokyo. I am not a particularly gifted learner, especially when it comes to foreign language. You, apparently, are quite gifted. So my question for you is: How long have you been studying Japanese, and would you consider yourself to be fluent?

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Well, As I stated earlier, concepts like Irony are non-existent in my language. You cannot even begin to describe to them.

Now Imagine a much more complex concept, how will you explain it when you can't explain some very basic and fundamental things. Sometimes even on this forum, I cannot reply to a discussion because of that reason. I know what I want to say in my head, and even tho I know 4 languages; I cannot express them in words. As if the words have not been created by man yet. it is incredibly frustrating.

Well I don't think that that's really exclusive from what I wrote. Ironic things still HAPPEN in the land of wherever you're from, there's just not a word that encapsulates the concept. That's likely cultural, though, and not the result of any innate differences. I suspect that this problem will minimize as globalization continues to force different cultures together.

Perhaps it's possible on some level that language influences the way that we think, but thought existed before language, not after; the influence is minimal, I would think, if it exists at all.

 

[Kraftwerk]

Well I don't think that that's really exclusive from what I wrote. Ironic things still HAPPEN in the land of wherever you're from, there's just not a word that encapsulates the concept. That's likely cultural, though, and not the result of any innate differences. I suspect that this problem will minimize as globalization continues to force different cultures together.

Perhaps it's possible on some level that language influences the way that we think, but thought existed before language, not after; the influence is minimal, I would think, if it exists at all.

"The homo sapiens mental revolution took place between 100,000 and 40,000 years ago, following the development of grammatical speech"

Source:

"Friendly fire," by Ralph Rowlett and others, Discovering Archaeology, p82-90 (September,1999)

The Palaeolithic Societies of Europe, by Clive Gamble, Cambridge University Press (1999)

"Evidence for the use of fire at Zhoukoudian, China," by Steve Weiner and others, Science, vol 281, p251-253 (1998)


I am not claiming that source(s) as absolute proof, but it is what we know for now. That shows that language helped them express themselves to each other, present Ideas to one another; such as Fire.

 

[Troidal]

I speak fluent English and Japanese, some level of Mandarin Chinese and Filipino.

I am more direct and can become aggressive/harsh when speaking English. I would say it is also the primary language in which I can express myself most clearly.

With Japanese and Mandarin Chinese, probably because they have more vocabulary that allows for vagueness and many ways of politely saying the opposite of what you mean (ugh), I become a suppressed version of my actual self, especially at work or with people you meet for the first time because speakers of Japanese/Mandarin know that we usually end up using a more formal form of the language ("keigo" in Japanese or "jingyu" in Mandarin). With friends, I am more open, but sometimes they tell me I sound very harsh when I criticize, even when my intention was only to be slightly critical. That's probably when my English-speaking mindset takes over even when I speak Japanese, and the degree of harshness starts to become blurred. Sometimes, people would tell me, you never say such a thing in Japanese. But hey, that's what I am.

It's almost like a split personality disorder

 

[Trent Strong]

Sapir-Whorf is such bullshit.

 

[Kraftwerk]

Sapir-Whorf is such bullshit.

Care to elaborate?

 

[cvxfreak]

Grew up speaking English in America and using Filipino (Tagalog) at home. Have also attained proficiency in Japanese necessary for working in Japan.

Just the grammar of the three languages alone are completely different. In English, verbs come in the middle of the sentence, Japanese at the end and Tagalog at the very beginning. That means that every sentence I hear in each language already begins differently, and that sets the tone for how I tend to perceive conversations.