Would love to hear your thoughts on Linguistic Relativity

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Goddamn. Thats a lot of knowledge :D
Hasn't resulted in a good paid job yet. In Switzerland, most kids need to learn at least 3 languages anyway (most common: German, French, English), and many of them learn a fourth language in high school. Then you go to the university and realize that speaking 5 different languages isn't as extraordinary as you think.

When it comes to the very well paid jobs, the market is filled with people who can speak English, German and French perfectly. It's actually quite annoying, because my French is lacking.

I've been studying Japanese every day for 5 years, and feel nowhere near fluent. I even lived there for a year and attended a University in Tokyo. I am not a particularly gifted learner, especially when it comes to foreign language. You, apparently, are quite gifted. So my question for you is: How long have you been studying Japanese, and would you consider yourself to be fluent?
I think there are some misunderstandings.

1) I'm not gifted in learning languages, in fact my strength lies more in math and logic, I assume. I need to take my time for getting the feeling of a language, I need to learn the grammar before I can make some sentences. I know a guy who don't know any grammar except the very basics, yet he can speak 4 languages super fluently. Now that's what I call gifted!

2) I've been learning Japanese for 2 months so far, therefore the answer should be obvious. :p
Japanese is quite difficult, because it doesn't use the common subject-verb-object structure, and given some context, ellipses are more frequent than in any languages I know. My Japanese classmate thinks that Japanese is very easy though...
Fluentness is overrated anyway, many native speaker can't speak their own language fluently at certain circumstances.
 
Japanese is quite difficult, because it doesn't use the common subject-verb-object structure, and given some context, ellipses are more frequent than in any languages I know. My Japanese classmate thinks that Japanese is very easy though...
Fluentness is overrated anyway, many native speaker can't speak their own language fluently at certain circumstances.


Common in European languages, maybe ;)
 
I noticed the specificity of English and the passive ambiguity of Japanese to be somewhat related to the directness and individuality of English-speaking cultures versus the relatively indirect and collectivist nature of Japanese culture. They seem to reinforce each other in some way.

Beyond that, I haven't really thought about it much.
 
Fluency is overrated anyway, many native speaker can't speak their own language fluently at certain circumstances.

well this is simply untrue. Fluency, as i'm sure you know (derived from Fluvius, Latin for river, flowing), simply means the ability to communicate without large gaps or struggles.

Fluency is NOT eloquency or perceived intelligence of the speaker in question. There are many who may know far more vocabulary and speak more 'eloquently' than natives in a particular language, but due to a lack of experience in speaking, they may lack fluency.
 
well this is simply untrue. Fluency, as i'm sure you know (derived from Fluvius, Latin for river, flowing), simply means the ability to communicate without large gaps or struggles.
That's what I mean. The "uhm, eh, uh", the stuttering, the sudden breaks and rephrasing are quite common under native speaker once you observe them more in detail. It's just that people often recognize their own mistakes more when they speak a foreign language. And natives recognize the mistakes of foreigners more because those mistakes aren't "common". For example, mistakes in declension and conjugation are typical mistakes of non-native speaker in german.
 
That's what I mean. The "uhm, eh, uh", the stuttering, the sudden breaks and rephrasing are quite common under native speaker once you observe them more in detail. It's just that people often recognize their own mistakes more when they speak a foreign language. And natives recognize the mistakes of foreigners more because those mistakes aren't "common". For example, mistakes in declension and conjugation are typical mistakes of non-native speaker in german.

There's a difference between a break in someone's thought process and expressions due to them simply not thinking things through, and due to them needing a moment to translate from a native tongue to whatever language they're trying to express themselves in. Getting to the point where you no longer think in one language and translate in your head is a thing.
 
Common in European languages, maybe ;)

Yes, definitely. I've been studying (not seriously, of course) the structures of many languages outside of Europe and it's quite surprising at just the variety there is with basic word order. I got used to Japanese verb final, but verb initial languages are still bizarre to me (also interesting that object initial is the rarest kind of language. I wonder why.)

Anyway, I think that "thinking differently" in another language is because language and culture are so tightly bound together. It is not as though the words themselves devoid of culture are going to change the way you think in any way. You can't learn a language (well) without learning how to use it in social context. When I speak Japanese I am much less forthcoming and to the point, because it would be rude in Japanese to do so. You can totally speak the language that way of course, but everyone would think you're an ass.
 
That doesn't really fit the theory. This isn't your inability to think nicely; it's your lack of knowledge of the nuances and connotations of words or phrases.

Perhaps it's related to the fact that French-derived words in English usually carry a high-class connotation. If you prefer to use cognates, you might come off as snobbish. A good example is the French-derived phrase "a cordial salutation" verses the German-derived "a hearty welcome". But this won't make you sound angry, just a little odd.
Interesting. I think I do lack a lot of this nuance you speak of. Jeez I sound like an idiot huh :lol I'd love to know more ways of alleviating this. Sometimes I feel as if my casual English sucks when I go into details, my friends put up with it but I know it's gotta be awkward for strangers. Makes it hard to tell knock knock jokes :/
 
That's what I mean. The "uhm, eh, uh", the stuttering, the sudden breaks and rephrasing are quite common under native speaker once you observe them more in detail. It's just that people often recognize their own mistakes more when they speak a foreign language. And natives recognize the mistakes of foreigners more because those mistakes aren't "common". For example, mistakes in declension and conjugation are typical mistakes of non-native speaker in german.

na ja, but again those are degrees within fluency, rather than not being fluent. You are fluent in your mother tongue(s) really no matter what. Any issues they'd be having would do more with register (or put a X at a labour job site or autoshop and see his large vocab seem small), or perhaps simple social issues.
 
Anyway, I think that "thinking differently" in another language is because language and culture are so tightly bound together. It is not as though the words themselves devoid of culture are going to change the way you think in any way. You can't learn a language (well) without learning how to use it in social context. When I speak Japanese I am much less forthcoming and to the point, because it would be rude in Japanese to do so. You can totally speak the language that way of course, but everyone would think you're an ass.

Well said. In learning Japanese, you also intrinsically learn the cultural rules through the words that you are taught. You don't say "you" do X, you say their name. You don't say "no" to an invitation, you kind of dodge the subject. You don't say you're good at something even if you're the shit, you say "ok, I'm a little good.... maybe". That kind of grammar tells you a lot about how to think and survive in a social context when you are in that culture. It probably ushers the way you think.
 
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