That seems to be why Itagaki has screwed himself over. He tried to build something that would run great on the Alpha hardware, but when it gets upgraded there's not much he can do to improve the look of the game.....short of re-doing all the art assets (which would take too much time).
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X360 running at 1/3 power?
- Thread starter Odysseus
- Start date
3rdman said:
This is all starting to makes sense, but my question becomes why did MS choose this route? My bet is that they wanted games to be playable for the gamers at E3, but the effect the press has is much more significant IMO than the limited number of gamers that will return from E3 with gameplay impressions.
I think it's just naivite. They're still stuck in the software industry mindset where you shape and improve your product in the public eye. The game business is more like the movie business than the software business. It's all about the flash and the image and the shock and awe impressions.JayFro said:
Sony understands this. Microsoft, very surprisingly, still does not.
cubicle47b
Member
3rdman: I said in that thread that it was fanboy speculation for the benefit of Deadmeat. There's no way in hell I'd seriously attempt to figure out the relative power of the 360 and PS3 CPUs.
You can take me a lot more seriously in this thread. If anything I lean toward being a Nintendo fanboy (sadly).
You can take me a lot more seriously in this thread. If anything I lean toward being a Nintendo fanboy (sadly).
JayFro said:
Simple. Technology gets better the longer you wait. They might feel fanboy wrath now, but come November all will be forgiven.
But I do agree with you about how things should have been shown at E3. But if they want to prove they'll be ready for launch they have to show something. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Sums it up. One of the really interesting things about Sony launching next Spring, is that they aren't going to face this problem. They are going to end up unveiling at their own show and own leisure.
My guess is that Sony will hold a special event to unveil the 1st generation of PS3 games around Thanksgiving - when the 360 launches. It would just KILL any momentum MS could build.
I've always been impressed with Sony's business sense. They have always been able to steal their opponents thunder, and they are the masters of hype. It will be interesting.
I can say after seeing all the games on a TV (G4), the PS3 games are so far ahead right now that it is simply pathetic. Gears of War and PGR3 are the only things that look like they could compete. And they just aren't in the same league. Tired of the plastic look and bloom lighting abuse on the 360 games I've seen as well.
MS seems way too rushed and ill prepared for this fall launch. I think the first wave of games is going to suffer for it.
My guess is that Sony will hold a special event to unveil the 1st generation of PS3 games around Thanksgiving - when the 360 launches. It would just KILL any momentum MS could build.
I've always been impressed with Sony's business sense. They have always been able to steal their opponents thunder, and they are the masters of hype. It will be interesting.
I can say after seeing all the games on a TV (G4), the PS3 games are so far ahead right now that it is simply pathetic. Gears of War and PGR3 are the only things that look like they could compete. And they just aren't in the same league. Tired of the plastic look and bloom lighting abuse on the 360 games I've seen as well.
MS seems way too rushed and ill prepared for this fall launch. I think the first wave of games is going to suffer for it.
I agree with that. First impressions matter quite a bit in the videogame industry...but let's all remember the first Xbox. Their E3 show sucked back then...and they hit the nail on the head at launch. E3 is something easily forgotten in about two weeks even by us let alone Joe public...while bombardments of advertisements close to launch with top notch commercials is what really sells the system. Sony is using E3 as a marketing tool...when honestly...it was never intended to be that. Very smart though. And they deffinitely won the first round.
MightyHedgehog
Member
TheJollyCorner said:
EDIT: REDUNDANT INFORMATION because I was too busy smoking...and typing too slow :\
Yeah, because the final hardware isn't in production yet. They could probably go a lot further if they wanted to, but it's clear that many games shown for X360, so far, are also being put out in playable form for E3 and press playthroughs. It's either unplayable framerates and maximum visuals (of what they're currently capable of on alpha hardware that isn't half as powerful as the final system), or very toned-down visuals to make it playable for the press and show off in video form (if they're not enhancing the actual look due to trying to exhibit what they think they'll achieve in the final game (on final hardware).
Obviously, developers are only capable of doing so much without the actual target hardware to work with. Like any game, you're going to concentrate on asset building (textures/animation/level design/sound -- maybe) and the actual gameplay design. When they get beta dev kits (they're still using alpha 2's with dual G5 and Radeon X850 IIRC), they can start optimizing as there's no point in trying to really optimize until you have the hardware to work with. The current alpha kit, if you go by specs, is vastly less capable than the final target hardware's capability.
I don't know if it's true or not, but I would suspect that Sony has given kits out that are far more capable of showing (visually) what the final system is doing compared to Xenon kits at the moment. Sony doesn't have the pressure of getting their system out this year and PS3 devs can focus a little more on getting stuff ready to be playable later in the year to early next when E3 '06 and the launch occur. X360's stuff is suffering (in people's eyes) because they're launching this year and want to have playable stuff this year to hype it. It's a trade off, but in the end, I don't think it'll matter all that much and final games (that hit this year) should look spectacular depending on the individual devs.
border said:
Except that most of the models in DoA4 are currently just carry overs from DoAU. These are likely just placeholders for physics/animation/gameplay testing. We have no idea what level of build the version of DoA4 being shown at E3 is.
Team Ninja works to the damn wire improving their stuff (even adding extra crap for alternate region releases taht they finish afterwards). Of any of the titles at E3 DoA4 is the one most guaranteed to be upgraded before launch.
The games that have been shown. Whether they are game engines or demos I don't care. They look so much better that it is pathetic. BTW, those who are fond of B3D forums, one of the coders for Heavenly Sword posts there, and they are at the least going to match that presentation, from what he believes. That and the Unreal footage means I am not worried at all...
And B3D is a MS whore haven...
And B3D is a MS whore haven...
MightyHedgehog
Member
Rhindle said:
Are you serious? Wow, seems like they're possibly lighting a a hotter fire under devs' asses than MS might be.
Nope they aren't. They are by far the best looking XBox games, and they just don't look as good as Heavenly Sword, MotorStorm, etc.. IMO. Gears of War is the only 360 game I would be interested in since Rare screwed the pooch with Perfect Dark.
I'm interested to see how Blue Dragon comes out.
I'm interested to see how Blue Dragon comes out.
cubicle47b
Member
Oh, come on. Let us all have our fun.
Spectral Glider
Member
jimbo said:
Oh no, I remember. Especially my all time favorite 1/5th the power gem from the 2001 CES keynote:
Yes, THQ certainly did a bang up job with the other 4/5ths on their RAW games.
Hitler Stole My Potato
Banned
trmas said:
In a bizarro alternate universe sure, but that's definately not the Beyond 3D forums in this world.
If you believe Sony's showing is an accurate representation of what their games will look like when you play them then it's not any more of a stretch to believe that the X360 stuff is running with 1/3 the final power of that machine, and that with that extra power, there could be better textures, shaders, models etc that are ready to be slotted right in there, making their games look every bit as good as Sony's.
Sony put on a better show at E3 but how the consoles compare is still unknown.
Sony put on a better show at E3 but how the consoles compare is still unknown.
CrimsonSkies
Member
Doh you just failed. Learn to troll better. There's professionals here.
OG_Original Gamer
Member
How much will change, AA can be thrown in for free. Textures can be reworked, I assume. Add some additional lights, thats all I can think of.
It's a really good forum, but it gives me a headache when they start getting into specs over there. Either those guys know their crap, or they are excellent BS artists. Me, I have no idea. That's why I go by the games.
The biggest problem the 360 has for me is four fold
1. They screwed the pooch with Perfect Dark
2. The PS3 games, renders whatever look so much better and the system is coming much sooner than expected
3. The PS3 has more of the features I want such as WiFi, Bluetooth, and BRD
4. Most importantly, the PS2 has KH2, G3 and FFXII, and Cube has Zelda to keep me occupied those few more months until PS3 comes out
I think MS will have a hard road to hoe this X-Mas because of the other still excellent software available, and the CURRENT lack of visual prowess to distinguish it.
The biggest problem the 360 has for me is four fold
1. They screwed the pooch with Perfect Dark
2. The PS3 games, renders whatever look so much better and the system is coming much sooner than expected
3. The PS3 has more of the features I want such as WiFi, Bluetooth, and BRD
4. Most importantly, the PS2 has KH2, G3 and FFXII, and Cube has Zelda to keep me occupied those few more months until PS3 comes out
I think MS will have a hard road to hoe this X-Mas because of the other still excellent software available, and the CURRENT lack of visual prowess to distinguish it.
OG_Original Gamer
Member
Are PS3 dev kits using the Geforce 6800 SLI config thats been posted here before?
trmas said:
Basically why I'm waiting for PS3. Since it's coming in Spring there is no way in hell I'm buying two consoles so closely together especially since there are a shitload of current-game gems that are coming out. FF12 (maybe), KH2, SOCOM 3, Zelda, Conker, Burnout 4, etc are more than enough to tide me over for the big guns early next year.
But this is proof MS had the right idea. If Sony delays PS3 to fall I WILL pick up an X360... if it comes when they say, its bye bye x360 for now i'm afraid.
CrimsonSkies
Member
I never would have guessed that. Imagine that ahah.
here's a quote from Xbox 360 hardware father:
It's worse than in 2001 because the XDK actually had a pretty good CPU, a lot of RAM, and a redesigned W2K as an OS.
btw, GAF is really slow with news this year, and threads quality has seriously dropped, this one is a good example.
I thought this was common knowlegde?
And there are people here that think PGR3, Ninty Nine Nights, GOw, Kameo, GR3 and DOA4 can be achieved on Xbox?
Please sell me your xbox, because my xbox doesnt come close to matcing what we've seen.
Im interested to see how much they improve over the coming months. And Lost Oddyse has shot to my #1 list. Story sounds awesome, a man cursed to live a 1000 years.
And there are people here that think PGR3, Ninty Nine Nights, GOw, Kameo, GR3 and DOA4 can be achieved on Xbox?
Please sell me your xbox, because my xbox doesnt come close to matcing what we've seen.
Im interested to see how much they improve over the coming months. And Lost Oddyse has shot to my #1 list. Story sounds awesome, a man cursed to live a 1000 years.
Um...neither system has full hardware. Both have had alpha kits for a few months AFAIK. THe PS3 dev kit apparently has a 90nm Cell, but two 6800's instead of an RSX. Not sure what the MS dev kits have since they don't even have a triple core processor yet AFAIK. But that shouldn't really mean much except for the playable stuff. I don't see why they would scale down any demos just for a presentation. That seems like unnecessary work, especially when the game code wouldn't be fully optimized at this point either.
For instance, GoW looks awesome, but runs at a sloppy framerate. I wouldn't expect them to suddenly generate new models or anything. Maybe improve the lighting and increase the frame rate, but I thought this was understood for demos of incomplete hw. What are some people expecting, playable demos at 60fps 6months to a year away from launch? :lol If there's a huge jump from these demos to the X360 launch, though, I'd be quite suprised, but also quite pleased. I think GR3 and KZ2 should be the benchmarks for the next-gen. The were the two demos that made me go, "WOW!" PEACE.
For instance, GoW looks awesome, but runs at a sloppy framerate. I wouldn't expect them to suddenly generate new models or anything. Maybe improve the lighting and increase the frame rate, but I thought this was understood for demos of incomplete hw. What are some people expecting, playable demos at 60fps 6months to a year away from launch? :lol If there's a huge jump from these demos to the X360 launch, though, I'd be quite suprised, but also quite pleased. I think GR3 and KZ2 should be the benchmarks for the next-gen. The were the two demos that made me go, "WOW!" PEACE.
The purpose of this E3 is to show off the Xbox 360 hardware, features, online abilities and the upcoming launch and post-launch games that are in the pipeline. Most people in the industry know that these games have at least 5-10 months of development time left on hardware that will be finalized in 1-2 months. What that means is that things will only get better... much better.
In August, launch game publishers will release new vids/screens of their 360 games running on final dev kits and give the media updated hands on sessons. Then months later, prior to 360's worldwide launch (in November), Microsoft will allow all media, big and small, a chance to playtest the final builds of their launch lineups and the mags/online portals/ tv shows will eat the games up and the hype will only be reinforced even more. Games like Madden, PGR3, Kameo, Ghost Recon 3, PD0, and DOA4, etc., will earn high praise from all over, imo.
In August, launch game publishers will release new vids/screens of their 360 games running on final dev kits and give the media updated hands on sessons. Then months later, prior to 360's worldwide launch (in November), Microsoft will allow all media, big and small, a chance to playtest the final builds of their launch lineups and the mags/online portals/ tv shows will eat the games up and the hype will only be reinforced even more. Games like Madden, PGR3, Kameo, Ghost Recon 3, PD0, and DOA4, etc., will earn high praise from all over, imo.
I see your point, but you might be in the minority. I see Madden as the big x-factor this Xmas season.
When X360 comes out in the fall with next gen Madden 06, I doubt that many gamers and football fans would want to miss out on it and have to wait til Madden 07 on the PS3 to play a next gen football game.
DarkCloud said:
You aren't going to get very good impressions from the media by showing games with no shaders, low poly models and low frame rate. You might as well not show anything.
They could relatively easily have framegrabbed low frame rate stuff at proper quality, then recorded it frame by frame to produce a full speed version which should approximate what is expected of the final games.
Am I the only one a bit worried about this? Xbox 360 coming out in November - no GPU, no full CPU. PS3, coming out in 12 months - full CPU, no GPU
If it really is running on 1/3 power then MSFT just shot themselves in the foot by showing 1/3 of what their machine can do. I work with many casual gamers and when they saw the Xbox 360 they came to my office to say, "oooh that was nice." But when they saw the PS3 they came running saying "WOW! Did you see the PS3?! I'M SO GETTING ONE! Screw the Xbox 360" (yes, caps and all). For gamers we will most likely wait and see what pans out, but if Sony can market well (as they usually do) they could deal a serious blow to MSFT on the larger "mainstream" market.
1/3 the power...man I wish I could've used that in college. "No professor, I failed because I was just using 1/3 of my intellect. Just give me a little longer."
1/3 the power...man I wish I could've used that in college. "No professor, I failed because I was just using 1/3 of my intellect. Just give me a little longer."
trmas said:
you forgot, that the ps3 will have gran turismo 5, tekken, devil may cry 4, metal gear solid 4 and maybe gta 4. big names = big cash. thats what the mainstream recognizes. that type of people (who brings actually the cash in) doesnt care about new franchises or some unknown stuff.