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[Physiognomonics]

Primitive shaders are similar but mesh shaders are slightly better. Thats what Alex from DF said anyway.
But with UE5 being so custom, compute performance seems to be the most important thing in determining performance.

I wouldn't trust much his opinion even based on some "sources". At some point he was also saying PS5 didn't have hardware RT. He was adamant about it.

 

[Sosokrates]

I wouldn't trust much his opinion even based on some "sources". At some point he was also saying PS5 didn't have hardware RT. He was adamant about it.

I trust him more then people on here

 

[Kazekage1981]

Direct X 12 Ultimate API Package Includes:

DirectML
DirectStorageAPI (with SFS?!)
Meshshaders
DirectXRaytracing
Variable Rate Shading

i dont think it has even been touched. As a noob question, can FidelityFX be stacked with DirectML along with the rest of the API package to lets say give 120fps on a consistent basis with barely any dip in performance?

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Didn’t he say PS5’s Primitive Shaders feature is based on RDNA 1 which is completely false?

Primitive Shaders is a feature first introduced in RDNA 1 GPUs such as the RX 5700 series of GPUs on PC. It was there in Vega even, but never actually enabled supposedly because the feature may have been broken in some way. This issue was fixed as of the release of the first gen Navi GPU on PC.

And please don't ban me over stating facts. Last time I pointed out something that is backed by official or proven evidence on the subject of an RDNA 1 or RDNA 2 capability or feature I was bizarrely banned for it, which kinda made no sense.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Direct X 12 Ultimate API Package Includes:

DirectML
DirectStorageAPI (with SFS?!)
Meshshaders
DirectXRaytracing
Variable Rate Shading

i dont think it has even been touched. As a noob question, can FidelityFX be stacked with DirectML along with the rest of the API package to lets say give 120fps on a consistent basis with barely any dip in performance?

I believe so, yes. Keep in mind FidelityFX is a software-based solution so it can run on pretty much any compatible GPU. DirectML is a hardware-driven/accelerated solution that is meant for machine learning. It isn't exclusively for image resolution scaling, but that can be one of its uses.

So, theoretically there's no reason why it can't be used alongside FidelityFX for image resolution scaling purposes. In the same way, those can both be used along with VRS 2.0 as needed.

Here's an official briefing for more info on DirectML.

Primitive Shaders is a feature first introduced in RDNA 1 GPUs such as the RX 5700 series of GPUs on PC. It was there in Vega even, but never actually enabled supposedly because the feature may have been broken in some way. This issue was fixed as of the release of the first gen Navi GPU on PC.

And please don't ban me over stating facts. Last time I pointed out something that is backed by official or proven evidence on the subject of an RDNA 1 or RDNA 2 capability or feature I was bizarrely banned for it, which kinda made no sense.

I think the general worry (whether they're rightly or wrongly thinking of it is up for debate ) for some people when someone brings up the fact that, yes, Primitive Shaders were in RDNA 1 and even Vega cards, is that they think the person doing so is trying to suggest PS5 is RDNA 1.5 or something like that. Which just isn't true at all.

While some people thinking there are absolutely zero differences between whatever version of Primitive Shaders the PS5 uses (which just for clarity, is at least based on the updated spec AMD made, probably with further alterations from Sony) and Mesh Shaders are similarly wrong for thinking that, overall I really can't picture Sony having made such a mistake to not ensure their Primitive Shaders are at least comparable to the newer Mesh Shaders in terms of what they can do, even if there are some small idiosyncrasies between the two.

Considering what a performance boost Mesh Shaders will give to graphics pipelines when they are more fully supported by the industry, and that Sony want to support the PC platform more going forward, there's just next to no chance they haven't done work to ensure their Primitive Shaders are more or less up to par with what Mesh Shaders will provide, small differences here and there notwithstanding.

...although it'd be nice if they talked a bit more about their design openly. Kaz and Ken were good at that.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

I believe so, yes. Keep in mind FidelityFX is a software-based solution so it can run on pretty much any compatible GPU. DirectML is a hardware-driven/accelerated solution that is meant for machine learning. It isn't exclusively for image resolution scaling, but that can be one of its uses.

So, theoretically there's no reason why it can't be used alongside FidelityFX for image resolution scaling purposes. In the same way, those can both be used along with VRS 2.0 as needed.

Here's an official briefing for more info on DirectML.



I think the general worry (whether they're rightly or wrongly thinking of it is up for debate ) for some people when someone brings up the fact that, yes, Primitive Shaders were in RDNA 1 and even Vega cards, is that they think the person doing so is trying to suggest PS5 is RDNA 1.5 or something like that. Which just isn't true at all.

While some people thinking there are absolutely zero differences between whatever version of Primitive Shaders the PS5 uses (which just for clarity, is at least based on the updated spec AMD made, probably with further alterations from Sony) and Mesh Shaders are similarly wrong for thinking that, overall I really can't picture Sony having made such a mistake to not ensure their Primitive Shaders are at least comparable to the newer Mesh Shaders in terms of what they can do, even if there are some small idiosyncrasies between the two.

Considering what a performance boost Mesh Shaders will give to graphics pipelines when they are more fully supported by the industry, and that Sony want to support the PC platform more going forward, there's just next to no chance they haven't done work to ensure their Primitive Shaders are more or less up to par with what Mesh Shaders will provide, small differences here and there notwithstanding.

...although it'd be nice if they talked a bit more about their design openly. Kaz and Ken were good at that.

You're right, PS5 is absolutely not RDNA 1.5 or whatever. It's their own Custom Version of RDNA 2. That said, why would Sony feel pressure to have their Primitive Shaders match Mesh Shaders functionality when there's already no capability quite like Primitive Shaders on consoles in the first place. If Sony simply finalized their chip sooner than Microsoft did, which all evidence points to that being the case, and their implementation of Primitive Shaders hasn't been updated or revised to be better than what it was, it's still a massive, massive step up over existing functionality. The main catch, however, is we've had so many demonstrations of Mesh Shader's performance saving benefits with large amounts of geometry, and I don't think we've seen similar demonstrations yet for Primitive Shaders, but if Cerny says it's going to be super useful, then that's pretty much something we should be able to take to the bank.

So only time will tell.

 

[mrBarrelNut]

I don't think RT requires nearly as much a revamp of a game's graphics pipeline as mesh shaders will. So by comparison, it's easier to implement.

Yes. Mesh + Amplification shaders are almost a total complete replacement of the traditional geometry pipeline.

 

[Kazekage1981]

is there any game being made for xbox series x|s that is not cross gen? I cant think of any

 

[Morrie’s wig shop]

is there any game being made for xbox series x|s that is not cross gen? I cant think of any

I believe Halo Infinite is the last 1st party game in development with cross-gen in mind at Microsoft.

 

[Kazekage1981]

I believe Halo Infinite is the last 1st party game in development with cross-gen in mind at Microsoft.

ok are there any third party or 1st party games for xbox series x|s that is exclusive for xbox series x|s and NOT for Xbone and Xbone X?

or games that are exclusive for PS5 and Xbox Series X|S and NOT for Xbone, Xbone X, PS4, PS4Pro (besides Ratchet and Clank)

 

[MikeM]

^The Medium comes to mind.

 

[jhjfss]

ok are there any third party or 1st party games for xbox series x|s that is exclusive for xbox series x|s and NOT for Xbone and Xbone X?

or games that are exclusive for PS5 and Xbox Series X|S and NOT for Xbone, Xbone X, PS4, PS4Pro (besides Ratchet and Clank)

stalker and plague tale sequel is also next gen only

 

[Riky]

ok are there any third party or 1st party games for xbox series x|s that is exclusive for xbox series x|s and NOT for Xbone and Xbone X?

or games that are exclusive for PS5 and Xbox Series X|S and NOT for Xbone, Xbone X, PS4, PS4Pro (besides Ratchet and Clank)

Flight Simulator and The Medium.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

is there any game being made for xbox series x|s that is not cross gen? I cant think of any

Starfield for sure. And pretty much every 1P game after Halo Infinite IIRC. Sony actually has more native cross-gen 1P games coming for the next year than Microsoft does (who seem to be turning to xCloud streaming on older platforms for future cross-gen support).

Yes. Mesh + Amplification shaders are almost a total complete replacement of the traditional geometry pipeline.

Nice; should allow for a much more streamlined process with fewer steps to get results which explains some of the insane performance gains early tests provided.

In practice it'll probably be closer to 2x - 3x the throughput of the traditional graphics pipeline but that is more than enough. It's just gonna be a tad weird to see certain staple hardware features of the past become less and less relevant in future GPU designs, but it was bound to happen sooner or later.

 

[Kazekage1981]

ms flight simulator cool
starfield cool, but cant tell much
the medium....uhh......that dont look too next gen like...more like last gen...and there are gameplay videos,...not downplaying potential good storyline and gameplay, but the graphics....

 

[Kazekage1981]

stalker not bad, but still looks like last gen but more shiny and lightning and 60fps.
the plague game was still made for xbone x, but not bad looking game.

ratchet and clank looks phenomenal, and its a 1st gen game of a next gen console. lots more potential. still have barely scratched the surface

 

[Three]

Comparing nanite geometry to mesh shaders isn't a 1:1 because they're really not the same thing.

Sony and Microsoft have implemented hardware level features for culling geometry - Sony's Primitive Shaders and Microsoft's Mesh Shaders. These are designed to simply cull triangles from their rendering pipelines based whatever factors the developer programs as a component of the rendering pipelines themselves. They're designed to work for everything from animated models to the world meshes; every triangle that is drawn on the screen can be passed through these systems. This should provide strong performance gains across the board for every game that implements them.

Nanite is an implementation of REYES and is limited to static meshes. It's designed to cull static world geometry without a perceptible loss of detail. This is a different goal to either Sony or Microsoft's shaders. Epic's method for achieving real-time performance is prohibitive to things like animated models, and Epic have commented in the past that they're still working on this, but it's all RnD at this point, so we're unlikely to see this in this version of Unreal Engine. As is true for virtually everything hardware supported, the hardware backed features will be reliably faster in more scenarios than Epic's current software solution.

The idea that Epic have surpassed Primitive or Mesh Shaders with nanite, when none of these have even been shipped and tested in a real game scenario, is a little hyperbolic.

There is no such thing as Sony's primitive shaders and Microsoft's Mesh shaders. These are standardised words not created by either even though their API may do things slightly differently.

A lot of software based solutions are used because they are actually faster (implement some efficiency gain in what they set out to do through compute shaders).
Epic do surpass primitive shaders and mesh shaders by using compute shaders with what they set out to create in their engine. Surpass is a strange word to use though because Epic still use primitive and mesh shaders for other triangles when it's deemed faster. Their software implementation just beats those at that particular task.

There are muliple examples of software based solutions beating fixed function hardware at a particular task because somebody has come up with an efficiency gain they can implement via compute shaders. Another one is hardware raster tile binning in Doom Eternal (which iD didn't use in favour of a software solution).

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Primitive shaders are similar but mesh shaders are slightly better. Thats what Alex from DF said anyway.
But with UE5 being so custom, compute performance seems to be the most important thing in determining performance.

The PS5 uses the same hardware and instructions for triangle culling as all the other RDNA2 GPUs.
They just don't call them mesh shaders because that’s DirectX 12 nomenclature. They call it primitive shaders in their API, like they call fragment shaders to pixel shaders. This has been confirmed by developers on twitter.


You can trust Alex / DF for official Xbox and Nvidia specs data. Not anything else because he's just guessing. Sony doesn't tell him squat.

 

[Max Payne’s Baretta]

The PS5 uses the same hardware and instructions for triangle culling as all the other RDNA2 GPUs.
They just don't call them mesh shaders because that’s DirectX 12 nomenclature. They call it primitive shaders in their API, like they call fragment shaders to pixel shaders. This has been confirmed by developers on twitter.


You can trust Alex / DF for official Xbox and Nvidia specs data. Not anything else because he's just guessing. Sony doesn't tell him squat.

This is patently false as evidenced by all of the available literature. Now if you just dont want to believe it thats a personal problem.

PS5 didn't ship with the capability to do mesh shaders it is what it is. May end up having no impact what so ever, it all depends on where the industry goes.

 

[Edder1]

stalker not bad, but still looks like last gen but more shiny and lightning and 60fps.
the plague game was still made for xbone x, but not bad looking game.

ratchet and clank looks phenomenal, and its a 1st gen game of a next gen console. lots more potential. still have barely scratched the surface

Stalker 2 probably looks as good as higher end of AA games will look this gen. Maybe AA games will look a bit better as gen progresses. It's definitely not a AAA game so we can't expect it to look stellar.

Ratchet is the most impressive game so far imo, but they can probably squeeze a bit more out of their engine as that game began development before new hardware was finalised. One thing that Ratchet can improve on is lighting, it still looks about flat and unnatural.

 

[Max Payne’s Baretta]

Stalker 2 probably looks as good as higher end of AA games will look this gen. It's definitely not a AAA game so we can't expect it to look stellar.

Ratchet is the most impressive game so far imo, but they can probably squeeze a bit more out of their engine as that game began development before new hardware was finalised. One thing that Ratchet can improve on is lighting, it still looks a bit dull and unnatural.

Lol we cant have seen the same stalker 2. Will easily look miles better than ratchet on PC.

 

[Edder1]

Lol we cant have seen the same stalker 2. Will easily look miles better than ratchet on PC.

The gameplay sections are nothing special, nothing really screams next gen. It looks solid, but it looks more like a last gen game that's been remastered imo.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

This is patently false as evidenced by all of the available literature. Now if you just dont want to believe it thats a personal problem.

Feel free to show us Sony's available literature that states the PS5's primitive shaders are lacking in functionality compared to DX12U's mesh shaders.

PS5 didn't ship with the capability to do mesh shaders it is what it is. May end up having no impact what so ever, it all depends on where the industry goes.

Of course not. It's a DX12U feature for xbox and windows PCs, not for an independent console that uses FreeBSD.

 

[Utherellus]

Stalker 2 probably looks as good as higher end of AA games will look this gen. Maybe AA games will look a bit better as gen progresses. It's definitely not a AAA game so we can't expect it to look stellar.

Ratchet is the most impressive game so far imo, but they can probably squeeze a bit more out of their engine as that game began development before new hardware was finalised. One thing that Ratchet can improve on is lighting, it still looks a bit dull and unnatural.

ye well they are AA studio.


For me Flight Sim is top tier in next-gen space with it's scale, complexity of world simulation and of course - jaw dropping lighting model even without Raytracing.

 

[Max Payne’s Baretta]

The gameplay sections are nothing special, nothing really screams next gen. It looks solid, but it looks more like a last gen game that's been remastered imo.

Stalker maxed out on PC will utterly smoke ratchet. Even in the trailer the scene density was night and day , also its a FPS so there needs to be a ton of micro-detail. Then theres things like lightning and physics.

Mans really compared ratchet and clank to stalker 2.

 

[Max Payne’s Baretta]

Feel free to show us Sony's available literature that states the PS5's primitive shaders are lacking in functionality compared to DX12U's mesh shaders.


Of course not. It's a DX12U feature for xbox and windows PCs, not for an independent console that uses FreeBSD.

Mesh shaders arent “just a DX” feature in the same way ray tracying isnt just an NVD feature.

Sony didn’t mention it because they dont have it.

Just like AMD wont say they have tensor cores or DLSS

what are you talking about

 

[Edder1]

Stalker maxed out on PC will utterly smoke ratchet. Even in the trailer the scene denajgy was night and day , also its a FPS so there needs to be a ton of micro-detail. Then theres things like lightning and physics.

Mans really compared ratchet and clank to stalker 2.

You make it sound like Stalker 2 is on another level or something. Even the likes of DF and NX Gamer mentioned Ratchet among the best looking games ever made. I think you're setting yourself up for failure if you think AA devs can compete with AAA games when it comes to visuals.

 

[Ozriel]

stalker not bad, but still looks like last gen but more shiny and lightning and 60fps.

STALKER 2, 'last gen'? You have to be joking.

You make it sound like Stalker 2 is on another level or something, lol. Even the likes of DF and NX Gamer mentioned Ratchet among the best looking games ever made while they didn't have a lot to say about Stalker.

Did you stop to think that that's probably because STALKER 2 isn't out?

This is what Digital Foundry had to say about the STALKER trailer

Announced as an Unreal Engine 4 title, this still managed to look seriously bespoke - fantastic artwork, beautiful world rendering, advanced character (and hair) rendering plus what looked like ray traced shadows and reflections. To what extent what we saw will translate into an actual real-world gameplay experience remains to be seen, but this is a game we can't wait to go hands-on with

I believe you need new glasses.

 

[Edder1]

is what Digital Foundry had to say about the STALKER trailer



I believe you need new glasses.

They said similar things about many other games, but the praise they reserved for Ratchet was on a different level. Not sure the excuse of Stalker not being out flies here since DF did analysis of Ratchet trailers and were already speaking of the game as one of the best they've seen on a visual level.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

stalker and plague tale sequel is also next gen only

Good lord, Plague Tale is gonna look gorgeous.

 

[Ozriel]

They said similar things about many other games, but the praise they reserved for Ratchet was on a different level. Not sure the excuse of Stalker not being out flies here since DF did analysis of Ratchet trailers and were already speaking of the game as one of the best they've seen on a visual level.

This quote came from a review of xbox e3 2021. Of course they weren’t going to go into great detail for every game.

They’ve also been effusive in their praise for flight sim and Forza horizon 5.

ratchet is a spectacular looking game. Not sure why you’re so invested in diminishing others to make it stand out more. That’s so tacky.

 

[Ozriel]

Good lord, Plague Tale is gonna look gorgeous.

most definitely!
I suspect we’ll see more of it at TGA

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Mesh shaders arent “just a DX” feature in the same way ray tracying isnt just an NVD feature.

Sony didn’t mention it because they dont have it.

Just like AMD wont say they have tensor cores or DLSS

what are you talking about

So where is this available literature to support your claims that PS5's primitive shaders are less capable than all other RDNA2 GPUs?








You can also check with Locuza if he found any discernible difference in the geometry processor between the PS5 and other RDNA2 GPUs.

 

[Edder1]

This quote came from a review of xbox e3 2021. Of course they weren’t going to go into great detail for every game.

They’ve also been effusive in their praise for flight sim and Forza horizon 5.

ratchet is a spectacular looking game. Not sure why you’re so invested in diminishing others to make it stand out more. That’s so tacky.

People get offended so quickly these days if someone has an opinion and shares it, thought that was the whole purpose of a site like this. Nowhere did I speak down on Stalker and said that it looks bad or terrible, not sure where this "diminishing others" statement is coming from.

I stand by what I said, to me Stalker doesn't look all that visually impressive for a next gen title, but that's understandable since it's a AA project. I never put the game down or even compared it to Ratchet originally, that was actually Max Payne’s Baretta who compared the two and then I replied with my view. Why don't you have a problem with Max Payne’s Baretta saying Stalker will look much better than Ratchet? Why aren't you telling him he's putting Ratchet down? Is it maybe bias you have towards Stalker?

 

[Ozriel]

People get offended so quickly these days if someone has an opinion and shares it, thought that was the whole purpose of a site like this. Nowhere did I speak down on Stalker and said that it looks bad or terrible, not sure where this "diminishing others" statement is coming from.

I stand by what I said, to me Stalker doesn't look all that visually impressive for a next gen title, but that's understandable since it's a AA project. I never put the game down or even compared it to Ratchet originally, that was actually Max Payne’s Baretta who compared the two and then I replied with my view. Why don't you have a problem with Max Payne’s Baretta saying Stalker will look much better than Ratchet? Why aren't you telling him he's putting Ratchet down? Is it maybe bias you have towards Stalker?

yeah, I mixed you up with the guy who said Stalker looked last gen. That was Kazekage1981 . But i have no idea why anyone would say that STALKER 2 demo at E3 wasn't spectacular looking. I'm not sure i've seen better looking faces this gen. While AAA projects typically have higher production values, there are notable exceptions like Hellblade, and STALKER is being made by devs living in a far cheaper locale than many of the western AAA studios.

I also disagree with anyone saying STALKER will look better than Ratchet. We really don't know enough at the moment to say anything like that.

I don't know why we're pitting games in different genres against each other in this thread. And that's the real shame.

 

[Lysandros]

So where is this available literature to support your claims that PS5's primitive shaders are less capable than all other RDNA2 GPUs?








You can also check with Locuza if he found any discernible difference in the geometry processor between the PS5 and other RDNA2 GPUs.

So why Marc Cerny in his presentation and later Matt Hargett put so much emphasis on the Geometry Engine while Microsoft remained silent about the unit then? If PS5's Geometry Engine is the exact same unit featured in discrete RDNA/RDNA2 GPUs and XSX/XSS wouldn't this blatant false marketing to make it sound that it has something unique? I was also under the impression that PS5's Geometry Engine was somewhat custom. I remain confused about the matter.

 

[Edder1]

yeah, I mixed you up with the guy who said Stalker looked last gen. That was Kazekage1981 . But i have no idea why anyone would say that STALKER 2 demo at E3 wasn't spectacular looking. I'm not sure i've seen better looking faces this gen. While AAA projects typically have higher production values, there are notable exceptions like Hellblade, and STALKER is being made by devs living in a far cheaper locale than many of the western AAA studios.

I also disagree with anyone saying STALKER will look better than Ratchet. We really don't know enough at the moment to say anything like that.

I don't know why we're pitting games in different genres against each other in this thread. And that's the real shame.

The reason I said I'm not blown away by Stalker 2 is because it doesn't look like generational jump over what we had last gen. I'm not seeing Stalker look like a huge jump over something like COD MW2019, a game that looks phenomenal even on base last gen consoles and runs at 60ffps. Again, I totally understand this since it's not a AAA game. That's my opinion, you have a right to disagree of course.

 

[Kazekage1981]

STALKER 2 looks great, its just when i saw the faces, its not like it couldnt be done on previous gen. Not down playing this game, it looks great.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

So why Marc Cerny in his presentation and later Matt Hargett put so much emphasis on the Geometry Engine while Microsoft remained silent about the unit then? If PS5's Geometry Engine is the exact same unit featured in discrete RDNA/RDNA2 GPUs and XSX/XSS wouldn't this blatant false marketing to make it sound that it has something unique? I was also under the impression that PS5's Geometry Engine was somewhat custom. I remain confused about the matter.

On the Road to PS5 presentation Cerny put more emphasis on the features that he thought would distinguish PS5 from the PS4: I/O, geometry, raytracing and of course overall performance.
I think higher amounts of geometry have been the most transformative elements in the actual-new-gen examples, like Demon's Souls 2020 and Rift Apart, not to mention the gorgeous UE5 demo, so he was right to point those out.

IIRC Matt Hargett mentioned the Geometry Engine as being of a higher priority than VRS, on the logic that culled triangles don't get shaded at all so there are more gains from that than dynamically reducing shading rates. Also, looking at Coalition's presentation, VRS2 looks to me like a lot of work for the devs and its uses for an era of temporal/ML reconstructions could be limited, but I might be wrong here.

Microsoft probably didn't talk about mesh/primitive shaders that much because Sony had already done it, and they probably wanted to set themselves apart. Which is why they focused on VRS2, INT8/INT4 rapid packed math, etc.

 

[Snake29]

STALKER looks more like a little bit better version (graphics) of Metro Exodus.

 

[Topher]

Mesh shaders arent “just a DX” feature in the same way ray tracying isnt just an NVD feature.

Sony didn’t mention it because they dont have it.

Just like AMD wont say they have tensor cores or DLSS

what are you talking about

Sony doesn't talk about its API at all so them not mentioning mesh shaders is completely typical.

 

[Max Payne’s Baretta]

Some of you sony guys should consider trying out for the olympics, simply 10/10 mental gymnastics at work.

masterful

 

[Topher]

Some of you sony guys should consider trying out for the olympics, simply 10/10 mental gymnastics at work.

masterful

 

[Max Payne’s Baretta]

Sony doesn't talk about its API at all so them not mentioning mesh shaders is completely typical.

right.

 

[Riky]

Some of you sony guys should consider trying out for the olympics, simply 10/10 mental gymnastics at work.

masterful

They came out with all this API stuff with Tier 2 VRS, then it turned out Microsoft and AMD were telling the truth all along.
Mesh Shaders have more fine control in the pipeline and are superior, it's that simple.

"
Digital Foundry say that Series X | S has a more complete programmable front end (Mesh Shaders / VRS / SFS) than the old PS5 primitive shaders.

Primitive Shaders were presented by AMD in June 2019 for RDNA1 and shown by Sony on "Road to PS5" presentation."

 

[TheRedRiders]

They came out with all this API stuff with Tier 2 VRS, then it turned out Microsoft and AMD were telling the truth all along.
Mesh Shaders have more fine control in the pipeline and are superior, it's that simple.

At least get educated on the matter before speaking.

AMD have not outlined any changes to their geomtry engine and command processors since Vega.

The hardware necessary for Mesh and Primitive Shader support has been present in all AMD GPU’s since Vega.

So both PS5 and Series X support Mesh/Primitive Shaders on the hardware level. Mesh Shaders are simply an API implementation.

Let’s not forget that all RDNA 2 cards convert Mesh Shaders into Primitive Shader in code and the Series X will very likely be doing this as well.

 

[Lysandros]

On the Road to PS5 presentation Cerny put more emphasis on the features that he thought would distinguish PS5 from the PS4: I/O, geometry, raytracing and of course overall performance.
I think higher amounts of geometry have been the most transformative elements in the actual-new-gen examples, like Demon's Souls 2020 and Rift Apart, not to mention the gorgeous UE5 demo, so he was right to point those out.

IIRC Matt Hargett mentioned the Geometry Engine as being of a higher priority than VRS, on the logic that culled triangles don't get shaded at all so there are more gains from that than dynamically reducing shading rates. Also, looking at Coalition's presentation, VRS2 looks to me like a lot of work for the devs and its uses for an era of temporal/ML reconstructions could be limited, but I might be wrong here.

Microsoft probably didn't talk about mesh/primitive shaders that much because Sony had already done it, and they probably wanted to set themselves apart. Which is why they focused on VRS2, INT8/INT4 rapid packed math, etc.

Thanks for taking time to reply. So you think "Full programmatic control" statement of the presentation simply means primitive or mesh shader implemention just like XSX/XSS one, nothing distinctive or beyond that right?

 

[Allandor]

...
Of course not. It's a DX12U feature for xbox and windows PCs, not for an independent console that uses FreeBSD.

??? Introduction to Mesh Shaders (OpenGL and Vulkan) | Geeks3D
Mesh Shaders are not a DX12U only feature. DX12U just has it in it so hardware that supports it, can be used.

At least get educated on the matter before speaking.

AMD have not outlined any changes to their geomtry engine and command processors since Vega.

The hardware necessary for Mesh and Primitive Shader support has been present in all AMD GPU’s since Vega.

So both PS5 and Series X support Mesh/Primitive Shaders on the hardware level. Mesh Shaders are simply an API implementation.

Let’s not forget that all RDNA 2 cards convert Mesh Shaders into Primitive Shader in code and the Series X will very likely be doing this as well.

Your own words: "At least get educated on the matter before speaking."
why didn't you inform yourself before you write such FUD. Primitive Shaders were a concept before they evolved into mesh shaders. That doesn't make a vega GPU capable of executing mesh shaders (other than with some software tricks but really slow).
Yes, you can convert almost anything to be run on older GPUs, as the shaders are more or less mini-processors than can execute many things. But that would be really, really slow.
The differences between some customizations Sony and MS did are, that Sonys customizations already play a role right now. To have advantages from something like Mesh Shaders, the game/engine must be developed with this feature in mind. It is much harder to "just" use it with todays games and get something out of it.

 

[Topher]

They came out with all this API stuff with Tier 2 VRS, then it turned out Microsoft and AMD were telling the truth all along.
Mesh Shaders have more fine control in the pipeline and are superior, it's that simple.

"
Digital Foundry say that Series X | S has a more complete programmable front end (Mesh Shaders / VRS / SFS) than the old PS5 primitive shaders.

Primitive Shaders were presented by AMD in June 2019 for RDNA1 and shown by Sony on "Road to PS5" presentation."

That was pure speculation by Alex on resetera. Words left out: "my hunch", "without saying positviely for certain".

MS: A Closer Look at How Xbox Series X|S Integrates Full AMD RDNA 2 Architecture News

They do appear to be super confident in their strategy.

www.resetera.com

 

[Max Payne’s Baretta]

??? Introduction to Mesh Shaders (OpenGL and Vulkan) | Geeks3D
Mesh Shaders are not a DX12U only feature. DX12U just has it in it so hardware that supports it, can be used.


Your own words: "At least get educated on the matter before speaking."
why didn't you inform yourself before you write such FUD. Primitive Shaders were a concept before they evolved into mesh shaders. That doesn't make a vega GPU capable of executing mesh shaders (other than with some software tricks but really slow).
Yes, you can convert almost anything to be run on older GPUs, as the shaders are more or less mini-processors than can execute many things. But that would be really, really slow.
The differences between some customizations Sony and MS did are, that Sonys customizations already play a role right now. To have advantages from something like Mesh Shaders, the game/engine must be developed with this feature in mind. It is much harder to "just" use it with todays games and get something out of it.

Very well said.