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[The Elite]

Xenosaga 3 is amazing, but like mentioned above, you need to at least know a few things. I'd highly suggest, after playing through the prologue dungeon, sitting down and browsing the codex/Xenobible (in-game) for interesting bits. Especially read about characters as the codex is updated!

Here is the absolute bare minimum of what you need to know, and some suggestions on XS1/2 scenes to watch on Youtube. (HUGE XENOSAGA 1/2 SPOILERS BELOW!) Other Xenonerds, feel free to correct me.

Spoiler

-Shion is a scientist who is in love with her dead boyfriend Kevin and was almost crystallized by a Gnosis but survived and thus is a little wacky/distant. She is addicted to curry. She makes the best curry. She would have made a great housewife if she wasn't a necrophiliac
-Allen has the most sincere hots for Shion ever but is shy about it. He would give up his life for Shion
-chaos is an enigma, but works for good. He is fairly angelic
-chaos and KOS-MOS have a deep, almost lovers-esque relationship; Shion and KOS-MOS have a somewhat detached but still protective/sisterly relationship. KOS-MOS herself is an android and an extremely powerful anti-Gnosis weapon because she can use the Hilbert Effect
-MOMO can use a weaker version of the Hilbert Effect and is a special scout-type Realian. She was created by some Joachim guy to store the Y-Data in (the Y-Data is basically the secrets of the universe. EVERYBODY WANTS THE Y-DATA). She is modeled after Joachim's daughter, Sakura, and always wanted to "replace" her. She gets more badass as the series goes along (from magical girl to Nazi archer to magical Nazi archer)
-Jr. is part of the Kukai Foundation, a neutral space colony/metropolitan ship, and is an URTV. He and Albedo do not really get along, even though Jr. would love to be friends again (you see, Albedo's job is to screw up everything Jr. loves, from MOMO to weird DBZ OVER 9,000!!!!!! stuff). He is my favorite character because he is such a little punk
-Jin was a military man but now he is a sissy with a katana. He is Shion's brother. He likes curry
-Ziggy is a cyborg who wants to forget his depressing past. He and "Voyager" don't get along. He can kick meteors
-Canaan is an advanced Realian and expert E.S. pilot. He has a BIG SECRET and is tied to Ziggy's past (iirc?)
-Margulis and Peligri are awesome villains that believe in a god that speaks to them. Jin used to have the hots for Peligri but then bad stuff happened (REMEMBER THAT THEY TALK TO GOD)
-Mizuki or whatever her name is used to work for Shion directly, but now she is her sort of freelance weapons manufacturer. She was playable for a short time in the earlier games as one of the rare minor character battle participants (the only other ones were Canaan as a pilot in XS2's E.S. battles, and Virgil during the second dungeon of XS1)
-Virgil died early on in XS1 and was a soldier protecting Shion and KOS-MOS. He has a skin condition because he eats Realian skin as a narcotic

TERMS:
Vector - Huge network of scientists headed by Wilhelm. Allen and Mizuki(?) still work for Vector, but Shion quit in order to look into their true purpose and Kevin died when KOS-MOS went insane. They, headed by Shion and Kevin, built KOS-MOS (remember: KEVIN BUILT KOS-MOS, and KOS-MOS KILLED KEVIN)
Durandal - Jr.'s behemoth of a ship; it likes to be used as a dungeon a lot. Used as a second HQ for Shion and company
Elsa - One of the Durandal's contracted exploration/trade ships; your primary HQ and where you go between missions. Includes a bunch of somewhat annoying shipmates that you can usually safely ignore
Gnosis - Aliens that crystallize you if you come in contact with them
Hilbert Effect - Big flashy WMD that eradicates Gnosis and disables machinery; can be focused into small blasts
Android - Machine with human parts
Realian - Android with realistic skin; Xenosaga world's equivalent to black people in terms of mistreatment/slavery, except worse because people eat them. They all went crazy during the Miltian Conflict
Cyborg - Human with machine parts
URTV - U-DO Retro Virus units; human weapons "birthed" (he used egg donors' embryos) by Dimitri Yuriev to cancel out U-DO. Four Variants - purposefully genetically mutated URTVs - exist: Albedo, Rubedo (Jr.), Negredo and some chick
U-DO - Creepy energy
A.G.W.S - Warrior robots without the souls of biblical folks or something
E.S. - Warrior robots with the souls of biblical folks or something (they are pseduo-sentient)
Zohar - One of the twelve disciples - I mean, giant crucifixes - I mean, things that Gnosis are horny for
Miltian Conflict - Second Miltia (or First or... the one you don't live on) got destroyed because the Song of Nephilim was mysteriously activated
Song of Nephilim - Don't activate it. It'll destroy your planet
Merkabah - Borg cube/great way to activate the Song of Nephilim (iirc) besides necrophilia

Scenes to watch:
-The Hilbert Effect (shut up MOMO) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m57rflJVok)
-Elsa gets Gnosis'd (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O0Gdj1GmIs)
-Albedo torturing MOMO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95mwIi8lVHQ)
-Xenosaga II introduction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuOt9b1QgKA)
-Jin/Margulis fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLxe2knWI8Q)

Everything else can probably be intuited or looked up as you please.

Fun fact: Xenosaga is a three-part space opera. Somehow, there is a forest dungeon in every game!

Thanks. I'd love to play through the whole series but I don't think I have time. I'm a huge fan of the concept though.

 

[Tamanon]

Don't get Episode III without playing the other two. You HAVE to play them to understand what's going on in Episode III.

Eh, I played half of the first one and 2 hours of the second one. I just read the summaries in-game and was just fine enjoying Episode 3.

 

[ronito]

yeah I think you'd be better off just reading up on what's happened than playing through that travesty of Ep. 2. One is ok, but slow.

 

[The Chef]

I played it when it was first released and have always considered playing it again. The battle system, characters and love story in this game are frickin epic.

Honestly I barely remember anything about it. Next game dry spell I am all over this.

Anyone play this on PS3? How does it look?

 

[Sir Garbageman]

I think I've mentioned it before, but the first time Id shows up was the most awesome thing ever to my teenage self.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ2NQQ2nWrI

 

[MiniBossBattle]

Downloaded the game last night probably going to play this on my PSP.
I never beat the game (my let me borrow it) so I look forward to seeing how the story pans out. I remember how striking the game looked with 2d sprites mixed with 3d objects.

 

[DY_nasty]

Not enough MAN OF THE SEA in the OP

yeah I think you'd be better off just reading up on what's happened than playing through that travesty of Ep. 2. One is ok, but slow.

Yeah, 1 is okay. 2 is... well, its bad. Very bad, but short. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone but it does help tell the story. 3 is one of the best RPGs on the PS2.

But to those who've only played Xenosaga and not Xenogears, I'd say that its a different experience and don't expect the dots to connect. Especially not for the first 30 hours or so. That being said, its my favorite PS1 RPG by far.

 

[FallingEdge]

So instead of buying the PSN version, I am playing my physical copy on my PS3. Had it forever but never played it for whatever reason. Anyway, my question is if I were to one day buy the PSN version, will those game saves work with the PSX saves? Or would I have to start over?

 

[mattp]

So instead of buying the PSN version, I am playing my physical copy on my PS3. Had it forever but never played it for whatever reason. Anyway, my question is if I were to one day buy the PSN version, will those game saves work with the PSX saves? Or would I have to start over?

same save files, no worries

 

[FallingEdge]

same save files, no worries

Awesome. Thanks!

 

[webrunner]

While Cloud did say 'Zenogias' in the original PS1 version, it was later changed to 'Xenogears' in the PC version of FF7.

The other things he says there are based on lyrics from Small of Two Pieces, on the Xenogears soundtrack.

http://www.creativeuncut.com/lyric-xeno.html

Here's a fun home game, by the way: the Chrono Trigger team, at least part of them, went on to create Xenogears. The Xenogears team, at least part of them, went on to create Chrono Cross. Comparing XG and CC, there's a lot of similarities, such as the combo-based LMH battle system, and there's a major plot twist that happens in both Xenogears and Chrono Cross:

Spoiler

save points are EVIL!

 

[ErasureAcer]

Hmm. It's my favorite game. Should I start a new game? Haven't played it in years. Don't want to ruin the memories of its awesomeness. But then now there's an official topic for it! I've never seen a game with more crazy characters than this game.

Spoiler

Fei, Ramsus, Krelian, Hammer...oh how Hammer is crazy.

. Too good.

 

[Urban Scholar]

I think I've mentioned it before, but the first time Id shows up was the most awesome thing ever to my teenage self.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ2NQQ2nWrI

Oh yeah this takes me back, I was in awe then as well.

 

[The Praiseworthy]

Xenosaga 3 is amazing, but like mentioned above, you need to at least know a few things. I'd highly suggest, after playing through the prologue dungeon, sitting down and browsing the codex/Xenobible (in-game) for interesting bits. Especially read about characters as the codex is updated!

Here is the absolute bare minimum of what you need to know, and some suggestions on XS1/2 scenes to watch on Youtube. (HUGE XENOSAGA 1/2 SPOILERS BELOW!) Other Xenonerds, feel free to correct me.

Spoiler

-Shion is a scientist who is in love with her dead boyfriend Kevin and was almost crystallized by a Gnosis but survived and thus is a little wacky/distant. She is addicted to curry. She makes the best curry. She would have made a great housewife if she wasn't a necrophiliac
-Allen has the most sincere hots for Shion ever but is shy about it. He would give up his life for Shion
-chaos is an enigma, but works for good. He is fairly angelic
-chaos and KOS-MOS have a deep, almost lovers-esque relationship; Shion and KOS-MOS have a somewhat detached but still protective/sisterly relationship. KOS-MOS herself is an android and an extremely powerful anti-Gnosis weapon because she can use the Hilbert Effect
-MOMO can use a weaker version of the Hilbert Effect and is a special scout-type Realian. She was created by some Joachim guy to store the Y-Data in (the Y-Data is basically the secrets of the universe. EVERYBODY WANTS THE Y-DATA). She is modeled after Joachim's daughter, Sakura, and always wanted to "replace" her. She gets more badass as the series goes along (from magical girl to Nazi archer to magical Nazi archer)
-Jr. is part of the Kukai Foundation, a neutral space colony/metropolitan ship, and is an URTV. He and Albedo do not really get along, even though Jr. would love to be friends again (you see, Albedo's job is to screw up everything Jr. loves, from MOMO to weird DBZ OVER 9,000!!!!!! stuff). He is my favorite character because he is such a little punk
-Jin was a military man but now he is a sissy with a katana. He is Shion's brother. He likes curry
-Ziggy is a cyborg who wants to forget his depressing past. He and "Voyager" don't get along. He can kick meteors
-Canaan is an advanced Realian and expert E.S. pilot. He has a BIG SECRET and is tied to Ziggy's past (iirc?)
-Margulis and Peligri are awesome villains that believe in a god that speaks to them. Jin used to have the hots for Peligri but then bad stuff happened (REMEMBER THAT THEY TALK TO GOD)
-Mizuki or whatever her name is used to work for Shion directly, but now she is her sort of freelance weapons manufacturer. She was playable for a short time in the earlier games as one of the rare minor character battle participants (the only other ones were Canaan as a pilot in XS2's E.S. battles, and Virgil during the second dungeon of XS1)
-Virgil died early on in XS1 and was a soldier protecting Shion and KOS-MOS. He has a skin condition because he eats Realian skin as a narcotic

TERMS:
Vector - Huge network of scientists headed by Wilhelm. Allen and Mizuki(?) still work for Vector, but Shion quit in order to look into their true purpose and Kevin died when KOS-MOS went insane. They, headed by Shion and Kevin, built KOS-MOS (remember: KEVIN BUILT KOS-MOS, and KOS-MOS KILLED KEVIN)
Durandal - Jr.'s behemoth of a ship; it likes to be used as a dungeon a lot. Used as a second HQ for Shion and company
Elsa - One of the Durandal's contracted exploration/trade ships; your primary HQ and where you go between missions. Includes a bunch of somewhat annoying shipmates that you can usually safely ignore
Gnosis - Aliens that crystallize you if you come in contact with them
Hilbert Effect - Big flashy WMD that eradicates Gnosis and disables machinery; can be focused into small blasts
Android - Machine with human parts
Realian - Android with realistic skin; Xenosaga world's equivalent to black people in terms of mistreatment/slavery, except worse because people eat them. They all went crazy during the Miltian Conflict
Cyborg - Human with machine parts
URTV - U-DO Retro Virus units; human weapons "birthed" (he used egg donors' embryos) by Dimitri Yuriev to cancel out U-DO. Four Variants - purposefully genetically mutated URTVs - exist: Albedo, Rubedo (Jr.), Negredo and some chick
U-DO - Creepy energy
A.G.W.S - Warrior robots without the souls of biblical folks or something
E.S. - Warrior robots with the souls of biblical folks or something (they are pseduo-sentient)
Zohar - One of the twelve disciples - I mean, giant crucifixes - I mean, things that Gnosis are horny for
Miltian Conflict - Second Miltia (or First or... the one you don't live on) got destroyed because the Song of Nephilim was mysteriously activated
Song of Nephilim - Don't activate it. It'll destroy your planet
Merkabah - Borg cube/great way to activate the Song of Nephilim (iirc) besides necrophilia

Scenes to watch:
-The Hilbert Effect (shut up MOMO) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m57rflJVok)
-Elsa gets Gnosis'd (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O0Gdj1GmIs)
-Albedo torturing MOMO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95mwIi8lVHQ)
-Xenosaga II introduction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuOt9b1QgKA)
-Jin/Margulis fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLxe2knWI8Q)

Everything else can probably be intuited or looked up as you please.

Fun fact: Xenosaga is a three-part space opera. Somehow, there is a forest dungeon in every game!

Can't believe you forgot to mention Nephilim and Febronia :\

 

[Lissar]

yeah I think you'd be better off just reading up on what's happened than playing through that travesty of Ep. 2. One is ok, but slow.

I didn't mind episode 2 so much. I think the thing that really got me was the battle system confused me quite a bit. I didn't really get it until the second to the last boss, when I had a sudden realization and facepalmed. But thinking back on it the game was actually pretty enjoyable. Not as much as the first and third, but certainly not terrible.

It especially seems so after playing Xenosaga 1-2 DS. Never again.

Now the only thing that REALLY bothers me about episode 2 is the fact that Shion neither dresses, looks, sounds or acts the same as she did in the first game. Even though I preferred the more realistic designs of the second game, the fact that she was a completely different character now drove me nuts (also in general that all three games have no visual continuity. Couldn't they have picked one style and stuck with it?)

 

[BentMyWookiee]

I didn't mind episode 2 so much. I think the thing that really got me was the battle system confused me quite a bit. I didn't really get it until the second to the last boss, when I had a sudden realization and facepalmed. But thinking back on it the game was actually pretty enjoyable. Not as much as the first and third, but certainly not terrible.

It especially seems so after playing Xenosaga 1-2 DS. Never again.

Now the only thing that REALLY bothers me about episode 2 is the fact that Shion neither dresses, looks, sounds or acts the same as she did in the first game. Even though I preferred the more realistic designs of the second game, the fact that she was a completely different character now drove me nuts (also in general that all three games have no visual continuity. Couldn't they have picked one style and stuck with it?)

Yeah, my problem with Episode 2 was definitely the battle system as well. It wasn't until about 10 hours in for me that the battle system clicked and I really grasped what I was supposed to do. After that realization, the game got so much more enjoyable for me.

 

[flyover]

I didn't mind episode 2 so much. I think the thing that really got me was the battle system confused me quite a bit.

Yeah, Episode 2 is all right. If you're a story-fetishist (and you'd better be if you're bothering with Xenosaga at all), it's pretty good: smaller scale than 1 and 3, but interesting. The problem with the battle system is that there are no short battles. Every one feels like a mini-boss. I actually liked the system, when it came to real boss battles. I just wish the scrub battles went more quickly.

There was a DVD I got with Episode 2 that consolidated all the FMVs from the first game. Too bad there's not one for Episode 2 (as far as I know). Combined, those would be perfect for anyone who wants to skip straight to Episode 3. (I know there was also a Let's Play for the first game, too.)

As for Xenogears, I've been listening to the new soundtrack over and over since yesterday. It's chiseling away at my willpower to get through the backlog of games I haven't played, and convincing me to play through one I've finished several times before.

 

[thetrin]

Wait what? Xeno doesn't mean strange...

It means outside/foreign.

Jeez, it's like you guys never took an etymology class in your life.

 

[Arklite]

I didn't mind episode 2 so much. I think the thing that really got me was the battle system confused me quite a bit. I didn't really get it until the second to the last boss, when I had a sudden realization and facepalmed.

What did you realize? The game's battle system hit the ground running, so it felt like you had to learn quickly. You found another strategy later?

I remember XS2's battle system mostly for the fact that MOMO became the backbone of my team. I barely ever used her in 1 and 3, but in 2 she was almost always my finishing move.

 

[The Elite]

Wait what? Xeno doesn't mean strange...

It means outside/foreign.

Jeez, it's like you guys never took an etymology class in your life.

Most people probably haven't.

 

[ronito]

Wait what? Xeno doesn't mean strange...

It means outside/foreign.

Jeez, it's like you guys never took an etymology class in your life.

Well technically the most correct translation is something that is "alien"
If you're going to nitpick go all the way.

 

[Lissar]

Wait what? Xeno doesn't mean strange...

It means outside/foreign.

Jeez, it's like you guys never took an etymology class in your life.

Haha, I was thinking that too but didn't want to say anything. I <3 etymology.

What did you realize? The game's battle system hit the ground running, so it felt like you had to learn quickly. You found another strategy later?

I remember XS2's battle system mostly for the fact that MOMO became the backbone of my team. I barely ever used her in 1 and 3, but in 2 she was almost always my finishing move.

It's been a few years since I played it so I can't quite remember (and my copy fell through the cracks somewhere the last time I moved...) I think it had something to do with boosting and keeping the enemy in the air effectively? I can't remember all the terms for it. I was quite embarrassed to find it was such a simple thing that I was missing, and that I only understood it near the end.

 

[BocoDragon]

Last time I played this game was just after 9/11 even then it was getting old. I'm so looking forward to playing my disc copy alongside everyone.

By the way, the OP section about Cloud/FF7 should be edited. It's certainly a Xenogears reference. It was translated by Sony's team of idiot monkeys who didn't know what they were doing, but in Japanese syllables, there would have been no difference between Xenogears/Zenogias.

 

[Muffdraul]

Wait what? Xeno doesn't mean strange...

It means outside/foreign.

Jeez, it's like you guys never took an etymology class in your life.

Xeno- doesn't mean strange in the sense of "weird", "odd" etc. but it does in the sense of "stranger in strange land".

Xenogears was love at first sight for me. I remember when square.net/uosshp announced it circa summer 1997, Vestal said something like "Apparently its central themes are giant robots and religion. Square says they won't release it outside of Japan because of its religious overtones." I knew then and there that I had to have it. I bought the import thinking it would never make it stateside.

 

[Phatcorns]

Cloud definitely says Xenogears, that's not up to interpretation if the translators just translated the katakana. Guess someone whose played the Japanese FF7 could verify.

Not that it matters...

 

[BocoDragon]

Here's what Xeno means in the context of this series:

Some cool sounding shit to some Japanese devs who didn't really know or care what it meant.

Cloud definitely says Xenogears, that's not up to interpretation if the translators just translated the katakana. Guess someone whose played the Japanese FF7 could verify.

Not that it matters...

Here let me just play through 30 hours of the Japanese version, and....

done.

Translation for everyone else: It's the exact katakana they use to render the Japanese title of Xenogears.

 

[Trojita]

Wait what? Xeno doesn't mean strange...

It means outside/foreign.

Jeez, it's like you guys never took an etymology class in your life.

The term Xenos from which Xeno arrives can mean a lot of different things based on the context. I will

By the way, the OP section about Cloud/FF7 should be edited. It's certainly a Xenogears reference. It was translated by Sony's team of idiot monkeys who didn't know what they were doing, but in Japanese syllables, there would have been no difference between Xenogears/Zenogias.

Edited in the OP.

why isn't this in the op banner?

Someone should make a banner using crucified Chuchu.

If someone with great Photoshop skills wants to make a banner, then I will put it in the OP and give full credit to the maker.

 

[SolidusDave]

Well it is an iphone camera so maybe it's that. But it dosen't sound like you have played Xenogears, that's kind of what the game actually looks like.

I was only mentioning it because I was pleasantly surprised by the somewhat pastel color look of the village and when I scrolled through the thread while playing I was then flashed by all the color in your photos ^^ (but yeah, I know taking a picture of a screen fucks with the colors).

I almost missed my station today because of that cheating rock-paper-scissors dude

 

[Ezalc]

how i wish i could experience this for the first time again.

Don't worry I'll do it for you and tell you how it works out.

 

[BlueTsunami]

If someone with great Photoshop skills wants to make a banner, then I will put it in the OP and give full credit to the maker.

Something I made up quick...

Wasn't sure where to place the title without imposing on the passion of the Chu Chu

 

[FallingEdge]

I totally forgot how fast I got lost in this game. I need a minimap lol.

 

[jiggles]

Found it.
http://i.imgur.com/bD3SP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZTqmy.jpg

As god intended.

It looks a ton better on this shitty TV than it does on anything else. The weird PSOne jerkiness is pretty much gone.

 

[BocoDragon]

Edited in the OP.

So you did.. But you left in the part about "most likely not". There's no most likely anything. It is a direct mention of Xenogears, mistranslated only in the English version. It would be like translating the setting of Parasite Eve as "Nyuu Yooku".

Not that it matters

 

[flyover]

My contribution...

 

[Trojita]

So you did.. But you left in the part about "most likely not". There's no most likely anything. It is a direct mention of Xenogears, mistranslated only in the English version. It would be like translating the setting of Parasite Eve as "Nyuu Yooku".

Not that it matters

Fixed again.

 

[BentMyWookiee]

Something I made up quick...

http://i.imgur.com/oDU29.jpg

Wasn't sure where to place the title without imposing on the passion of the Chu Chu

Beautiful

 

[Jackl]

XENOGEARS THREAD? IN MY GAF?

Loved the game, even if it had pacing problems. Found exploits ingame to level high, get overpowered items early, and destroy all bosses in 1hit till disk 2. Fun stuff.

As for the story

Spoiler

Id gonna fuck you up son

 

[The Elite]

My contribution...

:lawl

 

[BocoDragon]

Fixed again.

Haha thanks. A little nerd rage here and then can help inform the world!

 

[mr_nexus]

Xenogear's release on the PSN and the new Orchestrated album really got me in the mood to play through this game again. Good Memories.

I even changed my avatar for the occasion.

 

[Crazetex]

Can't believe you forgot to mention Nephilim and Febronia :\

Nephilim is only in, like, two scenes in XS3 - with chaos on the rooftop and in the finale. Febronia gets plenty of exposition in XS3. All of the Testament/Febronia/what the Song of Nephilim actually does and all of that is covered pretty well in-game. There's a lot to know, so I only picked the most pertinent stuff (in my opinion, at least).

 

[TheKaeptain]

I remember playing this game but not finishing it. So I guess I can finally do it. Thank You Based GOD!

 

[Manus]

I want to get this so badly, but if I do I know I won't play anything else. Gonna have to wait till summer so I can get some time with this.

 

[Man]

Wait what? Xeno doesn't mean strange...

It means outside/foreign.

Jeez, it's like you guys never took an etymology class in your life.

Well technically the most correct translation is something that is "alien"
If you're going to nitpick go all the way.

So what does Morph mean?

 

[Trojita]

I'll check out the banners when I get home. All submissions are welcome.

 

[Leckan]

Dost thou desire the power?

 

[Grayman]

I am a man OF THE SEA

This thread has mostly just reminded me of sewers(plural) and failing jumps (in babel?)

 

[ErasureAcer]

Well I got to the stalactite cavern. Game is as good as I remembered. Play some more tomorrow.

Oh yeah and I got the RPS badge!!! I know the hide and seek badge is in Aveh, is the tag badge there too?

 

[B.K.]

yeah I think you'd be better off just reading up on what's happened than playing through that travesty of Ep. 2. One is ok, but slow.

Episode II is actually fairly playable if you do some power leveling at the beginning of the game and the beginning of disc two.

 

[RPGCrazied]

Maybe if this sells well we can get Xenosaga trilogy on one blu-ray, in HD, and with trophies!

Pigs won't fly will they? ;/