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[Ghost]

I expect photorealism next gen.

The reason you wont see perfect 'photo realism' isnt a matter of console power it's a matter of "Hey lets release the game this decade".

Doing what you're asking for every building in new york just so you can drive past them at 170mph with a motion blur effect obscuring all the details is the definition of a waste of time.

 

[Blimblim]

motorstorm looks more realistic

No shit.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Doing what you're asking for every building in new york just so you can drive past them at 170mph with a motion blur effect obscuring all the details is the definition of a waste of time.

But that's exaclty what Bizzare is doing. They did it for MSR back in the day, taking tens of thousands of photographs of the locations and basing all their models and textures back in the day. That's been the method for all four racing games (MSR, PGR1-3). As more and more of the native quality of the photos come through, and as the base model they are applied to become more complex, there's no reason not to expect near photo-realistic environments.

As for it being a waste of time....when the results look like this, I'm inclided to call it anything but.

 

[dorio]

Okay, serious question.

My understanding of how Bizzare is doing this is that they are taking tons of photographs and video of the locations, and then essentially making texture tiles out of them and mapping the tiles onto geometry. If that's correct, when why would we NOT expect games with textures derived this way to be nearly photo-realistic? It's not as if they have texture artists creating everyting from scratch (though I'm sure there's cleanup and such.)

I'm not downplaying how amazing this looks....just wondering why it's hard to believe that high-res photographs mapped into high-res textures would look pretty real.

The difference is we haven't seen this type of detail especially in a racing game before plus if its in-engine which I doubt then the lighting model seems perfect.

 

[AndreasNystrom]

if you can notice the surrounding track, you arent driving fast enough

 

[Borys]

Okay, serious question.

My understanding of how Bizzare is doing this is that they are taking tons of photographs and video of the locations, and then essentially making texture tiles out of them and mapping the tiles onto geometry. If that's correct, when why would we NOT expect games with textures derived this way to be nearly photo-realistic? It's not as if they have texture artists creating everyting from scratch (though I'm sure there's cleanup and such.)

I'm not downplaying how amazing this looks....just wondering why it's hard to believe that high-res photographs mapped into high-res textures would look pretty real.

I don't understand your post but here's my take on this.

This isn't nothing new - MAX PAYNE 1 & 2.

The higher the textures the more real-life it looks.

In a sun-lit environment (say noon) you don't really need normal-mapping, just high resolution textures will do the trick.

I think if you took a photo of that chinese restaurant with a cheap-ass camera it would look exactly like that in-game render/ shot/ whatever.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Not at that texture resolution. Not even close.

Has to be the most amazing screen shot i've ever seen.

If that's what first gen looks like. The mind boggles what games will look like a couple of generations down the line.

What texture resolution is that???

Seriously, look at all we've seen so far from this gen. Better yet, look at the Luna and Mad Mod Mike demos from the G70 presentation yesterday. Texture resolution was high last gen, it'll be stupid-high this gen. The texel and pixel fillrates of these systems are very high. The shaders very deep and very rich. WTF are people expecting? DOA4 and PD0 have done more damage this gen than anything else. Don't be fooled by the damage control that was run prior to E3. Most games this gen won't looke like suped-up Xbox/GC games. Prepare to be wowed.

That said, the textures are nice in the pic, and the lighting looks good. But it's an isolated shot. How well the lighting blends in with the full scene is what makes or breaks the deal. And normal mapping is gonna make cityscapes come to live this gen, b/c they won't be flat-sided anymore. Man, guys....raise your expectations a bit. PEACE.

 

[human5892]

God forbid we all don't have a perfect sense of what a real photo versus a near-photorealistic picture looks like. I hardly think calling IQ's into question and such is necessary.

 

[Shogmaster]

motorstorm looks more realistic

I definitely agree, Motorstorm just plain old kills PGR3 in rendering motorcycles and desert scenary.

But then again, PGR3 murders Motorstorm in rendering exotic cars in city scapes. :lol

 

[mrklaw]

There is nothing about this screenshot that shouldn't be able to be done in game on the 360. Why are people so adamant about it being a render?

I think its perfectly doable on a next gen console.

The bit I have difficulty accepting is that kind of quality all the way round a race track.

Thats two shops. How long is a race? Couple of km? Thats hundreds and hundreds of buildings. You run out of memory really fast when they look like that.


Still, if they can pull it off, power to them - hopefully they managed to reuse the billions of photos they took for PGR1.





And just think, if buildings in a racing game look this good, what would they look like when you are just walking around in a much smaller area?

 

[sprsk]

God forbid we all don't have a perfect sense of what a real photo versus a near-photorealistic picture looks like. I hardly think calling IQ's into question and such is necessary.

-_-

please go outside.

 

[Koshiro]

I love the people trying to make out it's a photo on the first page. Do you even look at outside anymore? Real textures look a hell of a lot better than they do in this screenshot.

And motorstorm was prerendered, not based on PS3 specs at all. Don't bring up such stupid arguements.

God, I hate Xbox and 360, yet here I am defending it.

 

[olimario]

You know, the UE3 demo had a huge city scape full of buildings with depth and sheen.
If PGR3 doesn't have it, I expect PGR4 to have those tiles on the roof stick out and look real.

By the end of next gen we'll be hard pressed to tell games from reality. Take that Forza screen, increase texture resolution and add grass. Ding! A screen indistinguishable from real life.

 

[human5892]

-_-

please go outside.

I can't tell where outside is because I can't see the difference between the window and my TV screen.

 

[cobragt3]

I definitely agree, Motorstorm just plain old kills PGR3 in rendering motorcycles and desert scenary.

But then again, PGR3 murders Motorstorm in rendering exotic cars in city scapes. :lol

want a Ferrari enzo racing in a desert?

 

[GhaleonEB]

I definitely agree, Motorstorm just plain old kills PGR3 in rendering motorcycles and desert scenary.

But then again, PGR3 murders Motorstorm in rendering exotic cars in city scapes. :lol

Was the Motorstorm clip confirmed as realtime?

 

[seismologist]

motorstorm looks more realistic

That's because of the lighting. It's nowhere near as detailed as that first pic.

 

[HokieJoe]

God, I hate Xbox and 360, yet here I am defending it.

:lol

At least you're intellectually honest.

 

[dorio]

Man, guys....raise your expectations a bit. PEACE.

Let's not and just be pleasantly surprised.

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

The difference is we haven't seen this type of detail especially in a racing game before plus if its in-engine which I doubt then the lighting model seems perfect.

If it's part of the track, the lighting is almost definitely pre-baked into the textures as a seperate lightmap. Theres no reason for them to be calculating that in real time.

Also, note that the steps on the metal ledge thing lead up to a flat platform with no opening.

I see no reason why this couldn't be from the engine. Theres really nothing amazing about it. They nailed the lighting, but that doesn't really mean that they did that using the engine. They most likely did the geometry, set up a realistic light source, and ran it through some complex program over the course of several hours in order to generate a lightmap, which they then applied to the geometry to give it the realistic lighting you see here. This is a technique that's been used since quake 1. Probably before then. They just perfected it here.

Unified lighting models are not always the best way to do lighting, sometimes simpler is better.

 

[Shogmaster]

Was the Motorstorm clip confirmed as realtime?

Hell no! But I decided to be punny instead of argumentative. It's better this way with the likes of gt3cobra.

 

[dorio]

If it's part of the track, the lighting is almost definitely pre-baked into the textures as a seperate lightmap. Theres no reason for them to be calculating that in real time.

Also, note that the steps on the metal ledge thing lead up to a flat platform with no opening.

I see no reason why this couldn't be from the engine. Theres really nothing amazing about it. They nailed the lighting, but that doesn't really mean that they did that using the engine. They most likely did the geometry, set up a realistic light source, and ran it through some complex program over the course of several hours in order to generate a lightmap, which they then applied to the geometry to give it the realistic lighting you see here. This is a technique that's been used since quake 1. Probably before then. They just perfected it here.

Unified lighting models are not always the best way to do lighting, sometimes simpler is better.

I'm not just talking about the shadows though I'm talking about how the general brightness of the scene. That makes everything seem so realistic.

 

[cobragt3]

That's because of the lighting. It's nowhere near as detailed as that first pic.

lol, no

 

[GhaleonEB]

Hell no! But I decided to be punny instead of argumentative. It's better this way with the likes of gt3cobra.

That's what I thought.....I'll call it good.

 

[cobragt3]

Hell no! But I decided to be punny instead of argumentative. It's better this way with the likes of gt3cobra.

ofcourse it wasn't real time, recorded footage but the question is, were the graphics legit, as in were they doable on the ps3? I dont know if what we saw was CGI or not but I didnt see motion blur, that's usually seen in CGI movies. I'm gonna "try" to stay neutral on this about motorstorm

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

I'm not just talking about the shadows though I'm talking about how the general brightness of the scene. That makes everything seem so realistic.

That's more a matter of just "getting it right" than any technical amazingness. If they can get it to look like that out of the engine...just bake that into the textures, and apply a light source that resembles that color and intensity to the cars and it should come out exactly the same. In normal gameplay like that, you won't have ANY need to recalculate lighting on buildings and such. Only at night would you have that need, and lighting wise, you can get away with alot more at night because the subtleties in the textures don't need to be brought out to the same extent. You could also just apply a lightsource over what is already there if you had headlights in that picture, and it should work out fine.

In short, I see absolutely nothing that is technically difficult in this shot. It just seems to me that they took old techniques to their limit as far as realism goes. (note...this is not equivalent to saying it's not impressive...my eyes nearly popped out of my skull when I opened the first page....it just doesn't seem technically demanding to me).

 

[Ranger X]

Was the Motorstorm clip confirmed as realtime?

I don't think it was confirmed but remember this dune buggy having pretty much shitty textures on a screenshot. (by "shitty" here i mean that it's blurry and low-res enough to be in-game graphics and not renders)

 

[Doom_Bringer]

have the motorstorm guys ever made a single decent game or are they like Guerrilla too? It looked real time to me cause the trailer had some major slowdown in the middle.

 

[dorio]

In short, I see absolutely nothing that is technically difficult in this shot. It just seems to me that they took old techniques to their limit as far as realism goes. (note...this is not equivalent to saying it's not impressive...my eyes nearly popped out of my skull when I opened the first page....it just doesn't seem technically demanding to me).

That's funny that you think it's not technically demanding since I haven't seen any game pc or console that looks as good as that shot. Maybe its just me though.

 

[Blimblim]

In short, I see absolutely nothing that is technically difficult in this shot. It just seems to me that they took old techniques to their limit as far as realism goes. (note...this is not equivalent to saying it's not impressive...my eyes nearly popped out of my skull when I opened the first page....it just doesn't seem technically demanding to me).

That could be true yes. The main technical hurdle here is the sheer number of textures they will need. I guess they will go the procedural way as much as possible (juste take a look at the brick wall on the left, I see no obvious repeating), but still they will have to find a way to fit every textures and model of the city zone in the Xbox 360 memory. AFAIK (it's still be confirmed officially) there will be some free roaming possible in the game so there is no way they can "cheat" by having every track optimized specifically to be able to be streamed (like in RSC2, and certainly in some way with PGR2).

 

[cobragt3]

mstorm is developed by the devs of WRC on the ps2

 

[dorio]

have the motorstorm guys ever made a single decent game or are they like Guerrilla too? It looked real time to me cause the trailer had some major slowdown in the middle.

Trust me. If it was real time, they would have been screaming that from the rafters.

 

[Doom_Bringer]

Trust me. If it was real time, they would have been screaming that from the rafters.

55 secs into the trailer you see some major slowdown and pictures also have some jaggies. I guess we will have to wait for the truth.

 

[dorio]

55 secs into the trailer you see some major slowdown and pictures also have some jaggies. I guess we will have to wait for the truth.

I repeat... nevermind. My only question is if its real-time why isn't sony or the developers saying so. They confirmed the other realtime items from that press conference.

 

[Doom_Bringer]

I repeat... nevermind. My only question is if its real-time why isn't sony or the developers saying so. They confirmed the other realtime items from that press conference.

Sony only talked about Killzone which got a lot of hype, they didn't say anything about Warhawk, Heavenly Swords, F1 Next Gen or MotorStorm. About the confirmation stuff they only said that the videos were either real-time or running on spec.

 

[Forsete]

have the motorstorm guys ever made a single decent game or are they like Guerrilla too? It looked real time to me cause the trailer had some major slowdown in the middle.

They made the World Rally Championship games. WRC when it was released had amazing graphics, huge landscapes with lots of detail. WRC4 is even better with very detailed cars.

I think they could pull off graphics like these if the Cell+RSX is as powerful as it looks.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

I think the mere fact that there was an argument over whether the shot was real or not is great since it "appears" that it is indeed in game (from Bens comments).

 

[Doom_Bringer]

They made the World Rally Championship games. WRC when it was released had amazing graphics, huge landscapes with lots of detail. WRC4 is even better with very detailed cars.

I think they could pull off graphics like these if the Cell+RSX is as powerful as it looks.

(I took a screenshot of the camera that looks the most "in game" )

I don't think it's very wise to post PS3 game shots in a Xbox 360 thread. But that's great to hear, too bad I have never played a WRC game ever

 

[Forsete]

I repeat... nevermind. My only question is if its real-time why isn't sony or the developers saying so. They confirmed the other realtime items from that press conference.

IIRC Heavenly Sword was real time (but recorded to video). That game looks great, however Sony does not scream over this fact? Why?

I think Sony will just let the games do the talking when they are shown in playable form, and we will all feel silly for dissecting each game to try and see if they were in game or not.

EDIT: Doom: Oops sorry.

 

[jet1911]

Too bad SCEE don't want to bring them over here. :/

I think the mere fact that there was an argument over whether the shot was real or not is great since it "appears" that it is indeed in game (from Bens comments).

Yeah and it's only a 1st gen title too.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

This time it's a close-up on a NY building.

Sorry for starting new topic, but yesterday's has been trolled to death.

GET the FUCK out of here.....that CANNOT be in game.

THat has to be actual picture of China town froma Digital camera.

I dont believe thats a real ingame picture.

(it might be, but damn im blown away if it is)

 

[cobragt3]

I repeat... nevermind. My only question is if its real-time why isn't sony or the developers saying so. They confirmed the other realtime items from that press conference.

heavenly sword has been confirmed to be real graphics of the ps3, do you see the devs of that game screaming? And heavenlysword has been confirmed to be real by the dev on the beyond3d board

 

[cyberheater]

Why does every 360 pic thread degenerate into this...

Are you Sony fanboys so insecure that you can't admit that the 360 will have some stellar looking games.

It is next gen after all...

 

[Gek54]

I cannot imagine the time it takes to create an intire newyork city track that is as detailed as that pic. $60 games at LEAST. That image would represent a 100th of a second on a good 3 min track.

 

[Amir0x]

Boy, that is pretty.

 

[dorio]

They made the World Rally Championship games. WRC when it was released had amazing graphics, huge landscapes with lots of detail. WRC4 is even better with very detailed cars.

I think they could pull off graphics like these if the Cell+RSX is as powerful as it looks.

Do you think these guys could produce something that looks like that on non-final kits running at 60fps? The Heavanly Sword guy even said that their outdoor levels aren't at a playable framerate but we are to believe that this game which looks alot more impressive than that game is pulling all this off at 60fps?

 

[Funky Papa]

Do you remember when posting GT4 pics in a PGR2 thread and viceversa would result in a nice ban? I do!

Not that I'm calling again for it, just saying

 

[dorio]

heavenly sword has been confirmed to be real graphics of the ps3, do you see the devs of that game screaming? And heavenlysword has been confirmed to be real by the dev on the beyond3d board

Do you guys know what real-time is? The xbox can render Spirits Within by your definition of real-time, it'll just take a few minutes/hours to render the frame.

 

[Forsete]

Do you think these guys could produce something that looks like that on non-final kits running at 60fps? The Heavanly Sword guy even said that their outdoor levels aren't at a playable framerate but we are to believe that this game which looks alot more impressive than that game is pulling all this off at 60fps?

If its indeed real I'm pretty sure its not running at any high frame rates right now. It was probably recorded in the same way the HS video was (rendered in slow motion or something?).

If you check out the more "gameplayish" camera angles of the trailer, yes I think that is possible.

 

[seismologist]

I repeat... nevermind. My only question is if its real-time why isn't sony or the developers saying so. They confirmed the other realtime items from that press conference.

They said that it's not realtime. It's rendered based on the final PS3 hardware specs. So the textures and polygon counts are to spec.