Lately, I've been thinking that school is society's worst construct. Education on the other hand is fine, but the structure behind modern day schooling is wrong. Grades, homework, and the politics of teachers and administrators are all seriously flawed. Lately, my disliking of school has made myself sick to the point where I leave, making school harder and more frustrating. Luckily, I only have a few more days of school left before I goto second semester in Israel... but still, whats your guys' thoughts on school?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Your opinion on school
- Thread starter KarishBHR
- Start date
- Status
If they didn't have grades no one would ever do shit. At least with grades 5% of people do some shit sometimes. It's not that bad; but since I have no idea what kind of school you're talking about (there's a big difference between public/private high school, public/private undergrad, MBA programs, etc.) so it's kind of hard to pontificate beyond that. Of course, I'm in a cheery mood because I just finished my last hard final (Tax).
KarishBHR said:
Well I don't know what it is like in Israel, but the American public school system needs to be rehauled. Mainly the highschool branch of schooling. For one, I don't know if the teenage years are conductive to schooling. In the past, this is where people grew up and learned about life. Just the same for me, in my teenage years I was learning about life. I don't remember learning a damned thing at highschool and I was an A student. So it wasn't like I just didn't pay attention at school. It was just all about pegholing and fitting everyone to be ready to work on a constuction job or sit in a cubicle all day. It also reinforced grouping and class systems. Learning? Growing? Who the hell did that at school? Not anyone I knew. It was about after school activity and social clubs.
I'd take basic public education, teach the basics and make them stronger. Extend the elemantry system out into age 14 as a standard. Maybe age 16 and then let them go. I'd establish a college like system for the schooling after this extended elemantry system. I'd also add a humanities/ethics class to the standard class set of math, science and english. Knowledge is power? Well why are we giving them power without the responsibility to go along with it? All we are making is desk clerks and C.E.O.s driven by greed. I'd also stop this No Child Left Behind and put some funding back into arts and abstract subjects such as that.
KarishBHR said:
You sound a bit like John Dewey...except not as smart.
(kidding about the "smart" stuff, obviously
)As an aside, you should look into Dewey's writings if you're interested in alternative takes on the education process. I don't agree with all of his philosophy (or even most of it), but it's interesting at the very least.
Manabanana
Member
I hate school. I think it's a waste of time and money. I've proved much more productive on my own. You spend too much time taking too many classes that won't ever matter. I just cannot justify the time or money required for formal education. I think experience should be forever more important than a slip of paper stating that you completed some courses. Of course, this is the view of a concept artist/illustrator. That said, I need to go work on my portfolio for Pratt next year
Litigation Manuel
Member
LOL! Skool sucks duder! teachers r lame! OMG LOL!
In all honesty, I don't mind high school, I feel you don't necessarily learn great life skills and moral lessons, at least in the classroom. However, it does a good job to set you up for personal organization, your understanding of how you learn, handling work loads and learning to deal with stupid assholes that somehow pass through the system. You'll likely need all these lessons in life.
In all honesty, I don't mind high school, I feel you don't necessarily learn great life skills and moral lessons, at least in the classroom. However, it does a good job to set you up for personal organization, your understanding of how you learn, handling work loads and learning to deal with stupid assholes that somehow pass through the system. You'll likely need all these lessons in life.
I decided long ago that uni is a freaking rip off. I could learn anything I'm learning here from simply reading the book, and studying the meterial from the book. They should have an alternate system of university where you do the work on your own and only show up to take a test to receive credit at 1/3 the cost. I'd go for that.
Some day, when I am king.
Some day, when I am king.
Manabanana
Member
iapetus said:
Droz and I are. Sheeit.
Well, ideally there would be more institutions devoted to different learning styles. I've been meaning to look into Evergreen, a school without grades. As long as you know what you want to shoot for, there are specialized schools for a fair amount of professions. What I'd love to see is a university like the one Droz described. It would provide all the resources for learning and research, etc. It would still have professors or experts in a given field, but without mandatory busy work. Just learn the way you want to, as long as you learn it.
While the arguments against homework, papers etc. are fair enough as far as they go, realize that they serve a function other than simply reinforcing the material: they serve to prepare you for the real world, where you'll have deadlines and responsibilities and won't be able to do everything at a leisurely pace. Likewise for grades: whether or not you agree with them in theory, the real world operates on evaluative criteria, and that's unlikely to change anytime soon (and for good reason imo). Any evaluation, whether it be grades in school, or a more robust assessment in a work setting, will inevitably distill various aspects of your performance and abilities down to fit into some pre-set scale, all of which feature the possibility of glossing over some of your strengths and exacerbating some of your weaknesses depending on what is being measured and the manner in which it's being measured. So instead of decrying the realities of our world, it's best to suck it up and deal with it, I say.
Not sure whether or not you were making this argument, but I also feel that it's entirely foolish to not have any standards/exams by which one shows competency in a given subject (as some "progressive" educators would like to see), the same way that it'd be a terribly unproductive society if we were to eliminate work-related evaluations of productivity and expertise.
Not sure whether or not you were making this argument, but I also feel that it's entirely foolish to not have any standards/exams by which one shows competency in a given subject (as some "progressive" educators would like to see), the same way that it'd be a terribly unproductive society if we were to eliminate work-related evaluations of productivity and expertise.
Son of Godzilla
Banned
Drozmight said:
University of Phoenix GET!
All-in-all, school is pretty ace.
You must have been in fairly low classes then.
I simply don't believe people who say they were in mostly honors or AP classes, say they were A students, and that it was an absolute walk in the park or they didn't learn anything. High school is certainly not all that difficult if you just go through the motions, but a lot of it depends on how much you actually want to challenge yourself.
I'm not suggesting people in top classes couldn't still have had a fairly easy time, but I can't imagine that the people that thought it was a breeze, not challenging whatsoever, or didn't learn anything really tried anything to change that.
Homework hasn't translated into real world for me yet at age 25. Will it? Maybe, but I kept hearing that it "teaches responsibility" as a child. The reality was that it was the irresponsibility of the teacher who didn't get the lesson done in class, so they send the work onto the student to do at home. The amount of homework gradeschoolers and junior high kids are bringing home is disturbing. Hours upon hours of homework makes me wonder what is going on in class. What are they using the time for? I judge how good a class is by how much I feel I am learning versus how much I feel I am working. The classes with the most work have tended to be the classes where I learn the least. It's amazing how the work vs learnining scale plays out.
I don't see how you can hate school unless it is a bad environment for you or you have absolutely zero drive to learn or succeed.
You have more free time during school to do whatever you want then you will have at any other time in your life. I don't see how you couldn't enjoy it. That said, I am going to backpedal a bit and say that law school should only be two years. I am learning a lot in clinic, but I feel I could learn a lot of those same things on the job and not pay $30k to do it.
You have more free time during school to do whatever you want then you will have at any other time in your life. I don't see how you couldn't enjoy it. That said, I am going to backpedal a bit and say that law school should only be two years. I am learning a lot in clinic, but I feel I could learn a lot of those same things on the job and not pay $30k to do it.
Manabanana
Member
bionic77 said:
Most of my time in school was wasted in subjects I couldn't care less about. I did well in school, and I had a lot of fun hanging out friends, but I still saw it as a waste of time. Currently I'm barely working, but getting by comfortably enough, and I have plenty of time to work on and study what I'm interested in. I have tons more free time now than I ever did in school. Of course, most people are just put on the treadmill and don't get off until retirement, so I can see where you would get the impression that you have the most amount of free time in school. There is a very small minority that refuses to live like that. I am one of them.
I think schooling is just fine. The grade lumpings might need to change... 1-5th grade, 6-9th grade and 10-12th grade.
School is important not just for education (I know for one that I learned math and computer science skills that I would not have learned elsewhere), but for developing social skills. In elementary for example, children learn to play with each other and bond.
Also, what alternatives would you have? 13-17 year olds shouldn't be in the work place and definitely shouldn't be allowed to roam free during the day.
School is important not just for education (I know for one that I learned math and computer science skills that I would not have learned elsewhere), but for developing social skills. In elementary for example, children learn to play with each other and bond.
Also, what alternatives would you have? 13-17 year olds shouldn't be in the work place and definitely shouldn't be allowed to roam free during the day.
I dunno, I think school is fundamental in socializing, and teaching ethic. There's a ton of flaws but it could be worse, and working with a mass of students, it's hard to get that exact environment and material for each child. For that part I'm sure you learn more on your own. But school's not bad. You can learn things everywhere if you look. Just because you're in school doesn't make you their mind slave. Just get over the crap they give you, learn from everything and everyone, and most of all work for personal achievment, not a grade scale. Oh, and relax. It's not that hard and shouldn't be life or death. School does not determine your success, you do. But it is a useful tool.
Manabanana
Member
Lathentar said:
Hahaha, that's true. But by my third year of high school I was pretty much "done." I really didn't learn much from the curriculum after my sophomore year (and I was in honors classes). I really wish my school had offered more opportunities for students wishing to do more than get into "business"
Our art department was horribly underfunded, and we didn't really have much in the way of language programs. I did attend Concordia's Language Villages program, which was infinitely more fulfilling than standard public education. So I guess unless public education ever gets to the point where it can stop pandering exclusiely to the lowest common denominator, there's nothing that can be done. Maybe if teachers were paid more, we have some more competent teachers, too. I can only remember about 6 teachers in the whole school that I thought were worthy of their positions.levious said:
We have to take ConLaw and Professional Responsibility (8 credits total), clinic (not required but most people do it since we have great faculty and a wide variety of clinics), which I'm doing next semester is about 6-7 credits, throw in the seminar to meet your A writing requirement for another 4 and you have enough time to pursue other areas in which you have an interest while getting all that done second year. Third year is just basically icing after that. I'm not saying I won't enjoy it immensely or learn a lot, but imo it's not totally necessary in light of the cost (not that the schools really mind that). 1st year they scare you to death, 2nd year they work you death, 3rd year they bore you to death, as the old saying goes.
Loki said:Pssst-- they're talking about law school.
EDIT: OMG, so were you! : /
Loki = OWNED :lol
That's like the third time you've misread something of mine like that... deep down you do think I'm an idiot... I LIKE JORDAN!
Astro,
That's interesting, 2nd and 3rd year are completely up to the student at my school, I did forget about the ethics course though, heh heh...
But yeah, if you wanted to put both the writing and ethics course requirment off till your final semester you could. My beef is that most of our interesting courses are night classes, and some even on Fridays, screw that.
levious said:
Really? Third time? Sorry... : /
And no, I don't think you're an idiot-- not at all.
I didn't really "misread it" so much as not have prior knowledge that you are/were in law school lol. After all, it's entirely within the realm of possibility that an undergrad institution only has one course required after the first year, and that that course might contain a writing project.
So technically I didn't own myself...yet I did.
Duck of Death
Member
IAmtheFMan
Member
If you can survive Jr. High, you're well set for most of the things that life throws at you.
For me:
Jr. High: Really didn't have a good time; everything is superficial, plus everyone's a PUNK (I think it's required for males ages 12-16.)
High School: Had a good time; made a lot of friends that I still talk to, to this day. The thing with high school though is that you do learn snippets of everything so coming out of it, at least I felt like I knew everything, and was pretty cocky about it.
College: Took me down a notch; went from thinking I knew everything to feeling like I knew jack. I had a blast though; had the best time of my life in college and learned the most about myself. Academically, I did pretty well, but never really worked hard.
Med School: ... Well, it's kinda rough. There's an awful lot of studying, but for the first time in my life, I feel like I'm learning something that will come in handy further on in my life. Plus, the learning is actually rewarding now because you look back at what you learned in a 1 month period and it's more than a semester's (sometimes even a full year's) worth of material in undergrad.
For me:
Jr. High: Really didn't have a good time; everything is superficial, plus everyone's a PUNK (I think it's required for males ages 12-16.)
High School: Had a good time; made a lot of friends that I still talk to, to this day. The thing with high school though is that you do learn snippets of everything so coming out of it, at least I felt like I knew everything, and was pretty cocky about it.
College: Took me down a notch; went from thinking I knew everything to feeling like I knew jack. I had a blast though; had the best time of my life in college and learned the most about myself. Academically, I did pretty well, but never really worked hard.
Med School: ... Well, it's kinda rough. There's an awful lot of studying, but for the first time in my life, I feel like I'm learning something that will come in handy further on in my life. Plus, the learning is actually rewarding now because you look back at what you learned in a 1 month period and it's more than a semester's (sometimes even a full year's) worth of material in undergrad.
levious said:
Of course I remember that-- I just forgot that it was you.
I still have the aftertaste of rubber soles from that incident.
You're a lawyer-in-training. Forgetting about ethics is de rigeur.
Yes, that was a (rather tasteless) joke
; thus ends my jesting for the evening. One thing I thought that was particularly telling about our educational system was how in my freshman year of high school my English teacher told us, "Forget everything you learned about writing an essay." Strangely enough, in my freshman year of college, my English teacher told us, "Forget everything you learned in high school about writing an essay". I couldn't help but laugh. It was a perfect example of how all of the layers of bullshit in high school of "preparing you for college" don't mean a single thing (at least in my case).
I really enjoyed my English 101 class, because a good portion of it focused on all of the problems inherent in our current high school system. Our main textbook made the argument that we should completely do away with high school, and just send kids to a college-type school. Something about that just feels right to me, because from the day I started high school, I couldn't wait until I got to college and was able to choose my own course of learning.
I also think that high school (and now moreso than in the past, middle school as well) is damaging to the students locked inside. School shootings are a very important example of this. The social caste inherent in any high school is really quite horrible and disturbing. So is the extreme emphasis placed on things like sports and cheerleading, whereas the debate team or DECA get no recognition.
Teenagers are smart. They may be extremely unstable due to changes in hormones- but speaking from a top-down perspective, they're still quite intelligent. I think that if we allowed them to have more control over their education, and decentralized the school structure (making it more akin to a University), we'd see a big reduction in the number of problems teenagers have.
I really enjoyed my English 101 class, because a good portion of it focused on all of the problems inherent in our current high school system. Our main textbook made the argument that we should completely do away with high school, and just send kids to a college-type school. Something about that just feels right to me, because from the day I started high school, I couldn't wait until I got to college and was able to choose my own course of learning.
I also think that high school (and now moreso than in the past, middle school as well) is damaging to the students locked inside. School shootings are a very important example of this. The social caste inherent in any high school is really quite horrible and disturbing. So is the extreme emphasis placed on things like sports and cheerleading, whereas the debate team or DECA get no recognition.
Teenagers are smart. They may be extremely unstable due to changes in hormones- but speaking from a top-down perspective, they're still quite intelligent. I think that if we allowed them to have more control over their education, and decentralized the school structure (making it more akin to a University), we'd see a big reduction in the number of problems teenagers have.
Wendo said:
IAWTP.
The best classes I ever took were in junior high, actually. There was this "extended studies program" that you had to apply for, though practically anyone who wanted in got in. I learned more in that class about English literature, social structures, and critical thinking in general than I ever did in high school. Actually, in high school, there was far too much of a focus on math/science courses, with hardly any support for any of the more abstract courses.
Ford Prefect
GAAAAAAAAY
I hate school, but I don't really know how else it could possibly work in attempting to educate the unwashed (and unintelligent) masses. What whoever said above is right: at least 5% percent of kids will get what they need and actually be able to do something with their lives, and that's about as good as anyone can hope for, with the typical human today.
Basically what I try to do is get through school with fairly good grades, but by doing as little work as possible. It's fun
Basically what I try to do is get through school with fairly good grades, but by doing as little work as possible. It's fun
I enjoyed my university time.
With the exception of all the math/science classes i took when I was a biology major.
Always loved history, and I'd try to take a history or art history class every semester even when it's not required. Also had alot of fun in classes like geography and religion. These stuffs were never really covered in depth in highschool. I'm glad I took them in college. I hear stuff on the news every now and then that I can relate back to what I learned in those classes.
The first year was the hardest, and that fact i was studying for somethign I have no interest in made it worse. But once I switched to art, everything became so much more enjoyable. Got to learn to create with all these different medias. School is so much better when you like what you learn.
At the time me and my friends always complained about how it's stupid we're required to take all these non-related classes. But time and time again, they'd pop up in real life.
So my opinion on it is a positive one
With the exception of all the math/science classes i took when I was a biology major.
Always loved history, and I'd try to take a history or art history class every semester even when it's not required. Also had alot of fun in classes like geography and religion. These stuffs were never really covered in depth in highschool. I'm glad I took them in college. I hear stuff on the news every now and then that I can relate back to what I learned in those classes.
The first year was the hardest, and that fact i was studying for somethign I have no interest in made it worse. But once I switched to art, everything became so much more enjoyable. Got to learn to create with all these different medias. School is so much better when you like what you learn.
At the time me and my friends always complained about how it's stupid we're required to take all these non-related classes. But time and time again, they'd pop up in real life.
So my opinion on it is a positive one
I hated high school with a passion, but I think that had more to do with the stuff happening in my family at the time. Anyway, I refused to go to public school (after nearly getting into a fight with the history teacher, heh) and got trucked off to a small, 'alternative' school full of punks and other associated lunatics. Communal housing, consensus decision making, self-directed learning, yadda yadda. I grew up alot as a human, but my academics sure did suffer.
In retrospect, I'm not sure what kind of formula would have worked for me. I think I ended up ok, but I often wish I'd had better opportunities for education than the school systems I was part of.
In retrospect, I'm not sure what kind of formula would have worked for me. I think I ended up ok, but I often wish I'd had better opportunities for education than the school systems I was part of.
I just had a semester with the most brilliant professor. He's in the army, he runs his own international firm, his on the board of directors for numerous large firms, and he still finds time to teach a course about business ethics. He has such a busy schedule and he's a person that accomplishes things. He's also a big critic of the teaching system used around the world. In his own words, "When you graduate from University, your ready to work in the year 1986. Unfortunately your in the year 2004." He despises how school concentrates on the past, when it should be preparing for the future. School's don't teach students how to deal with new problems. Only the problems that humanity has come to face in the past.
My biggest gripes with high school:
1. Starting at 8AM is a recipe for disaster. Teenagers tend to sleep late and end up missing breakfast; if school started and ended an hour later, then I think people's first period grades would improve.
2. Overexposing of English and Math classes. Yes, they're very useful, but most math after Geometry is just pushing MY personal limit, and many many others.
3. Lack of teacher evaluation. Teachers should, at the end of every semester, be evaluated by students in order to improve because teachers themselves may develop bad habits.
4. This is just me, but my school required a health class to be taken. Talk about a bullshit class.
5. Too many damn fundraisers going on.
Well, that's just me so far.
1. Starting at 8AM is a recipe for disaster. Teenagers tend to sleep late and end up missing breakfast; if school started and ended an hour later, then I think people's first period grades would improve.
2. Overexposing of English and Math classes. Yes, they're very useful, but most math after Geometry is just pushing MY personal limit, and many many others.
3. Lack of teacher evaluation. Teachers should, at the end of every semester, be evaluated by students in order to improve because teachers themselves may develop bad habits.
4. This is just me, but my school required a health class to be taken. Talk about a bullshit class.
5. Too many damn fundraisers going on.
Well, that's just me so far.
I made it no secret to my parents, friends, and acquaintances that I hated my second high school with a passion. It's not even a bad school in the sense that it's got a high turnout of well off students who make great grades.
It's a terrible school in the fact that behind that is an archaic rule system which dictates how people in the 00s must act like those in the 1950s. It has an abusive band leader who has been in charge for 13 years, and won't step down because the constant trophies *must* mean he's doing something right.
Bah, I'm not going to go on forever, because I could. My opinion on school, especially after elementary school is viewed extremely negative because of Glendora High School, and all who defend it.
It's a terrible school in the fact that behind that is an archaic rule system which dictates how people in the 00s must act like those in the 1950s. It has an abusive band leader who has been in charge for 13 years, and won't step down because the constant trophies *must* mean he's doing something right.
Bah, I'm not going to go on forever, because I could. My opinion on school, especially after elementary school is viewed extremely negative because of Glendora High School, and all who defend it.
- Status