Robb
Gold Member
Hard disagree from me, but to each their own. I don't disagree on the dungeons though. Skyward Sword has some of the best in the series, but the game overall is an absolute slog.
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MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Yep. And I look forward to the sequel. It has the kind of art direction I'm looking for in a Zelda game.
Jinzo Prime
Member
Skyward Sword really sucked. It was just tedious, bloated, boring, and silly.
Reaseru
Member
Despite having loved both BotW and TotK, i think this time the should go back to tradicional zelda, even with the open world elements, but on a smaller scale. But I miss those old unique dungeons with different themes and look. Those hundreds, but generic looking dungeons from the last 2 games, were enough for me.
Werewolf Jones
Member
I hate soulless open world dogshit that gamers love to eat up but liked both BotW and TotK.
People were crying after BotW, but now with a second game of that style it is time to return.
People were crying after BotW, but now with a second game of that style it is time to return.
BlackTron
Member
It depends on your idea of a Zelda experience. Depending on your take, the worst traditional Zelda is a better one than TotK. TotK could still be a better game by many other metrics.
Skyward Sword had some nice dungeon design, which is associated with being the "meat" of Zelda since the series began. TotK...well, doesn't.
GymWolf
Gold Member
The combat was too basic with some bizzarre decisions like an arcaic lockon and no evade button outisde of lock on, the loot was kinda terrible, the enemy variety on the first one was abysmal, shitty boss fights in both except a couple of exceptions, shitty main dungeons (better in the sequel but still not top tier) and easy and repetitive small dungeons, story and charas were pretty meh, shitty, useless horses and questionable traversal methods (skating on a shield that break after 5 mt is not ideal) just to name a few.
I know people dont buy zelda for story or combat but they still ask full price and way older games like darksiders1-2 did combat and story aspects much better, maybe it's time for nintendo to invest in some good combat just for a change, we all know that a truckload of adults buy these games and they are not just for kids (and i doubt small kids hate good combat systems).
The game were also pretty easy when you upgrade your stamina and health a bit and being able to consume stamina and healt food from a menu didnt help at all...
But i like the emphasys on physics and breaking puzzles with unconventional solutions (tokt mostly).
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Ceadeus
Gold Member
Yes, I've been saying this since BoTW. Zelda releases are too far apart, and the newer formula just doesn't cut it. The series' soul seems to be buried somewhere in the depressing Hyrule of the last two entries.
We need the music back, the characters, the unique items and inventory... Hello? Where is the Zelda we used to know?
We need the music back, the characters, the unique items and inventory... Hello? Where is the Zelda we used to know?
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MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
They should bring back the Spinner. Most fun thing ever and it's only in one game.
Hookshot they should bring back but give it more engaging uses in battle to put space between you and your enemy, use as a gap closer or grab and snatch objects from afar.
The mobility could be improved upon. But then again spacing in combat is pointless if you can just Flurry Rush(this also feels like something you should unlock mid to lategame IMO) a majority of encounters with no drawbacks. Which I think combat at this point in time needs to reworked to be more engaging whether it's back to basics and more about spacing and timing or more modern and plays like a beatemup or fighting game. Phantasy Star Online somehow offers so much more with so much less and Action Adventures like Dragon's Dogma have more depth and more applications for what you can do with the diverse kit of skills/abilities available.
Wouldn't surprise me that if they evolved the combat they would just have Tecmo Koei make the battle system for them and pull from Calamity and Imprisonment.
I also think that some telekinesis or psionics for lifting objects and actors should be a thing ranging from combat application to puzzle solutions if we are looking for new things or gimmicks to play with.
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In defense of BotW/TotK the journey to the "dungeons" or enabling access to them is fantastic. It's the dungeons themselves that are the problem. And that a lot of rewards or gear are just in random chests. Most of them pretty lame like 5-20 Rupees and a lame weapon you never care for that could just be a common drop off of the most common enemies.
Ceadeus
Yeah I agree I find the music to not be memorable at all outside of the Main Theme. It's good. But if you asked me my favorite music track from BotW/TotK I wouldn't be able to name any of them. New formula is just Zelda: Fallout Edition. I think many would be less oppressive if we had more 3D Zelda games to play but it's been 9 years of BotW once you factor in BotW, TotK, AoC, AoI. It's a bit much. Lots of quirky memorable characters would also be nice. Another Bombchu bowling alley would also be nice. And a dedicated Fishing Area and some real postgame dungeons.
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CosmicHusky
Member
I really hate the art of silence. Make soundtracks great again!
I mean. What were the Japanese thinking? That Link is on adventure in the shinkansen or Tokyo densha and as soon as there'd be some music the "harmony of society" would be disturbed?
I mean. What were the Japanese thinking? That Link is on adventure in the shinkansen or Tokyo densha and as soon as there'd be some music the "harmony of society" would be disturbed?
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Notorious_Roy
Member
Zelda games have been around for ages and in such a long history there are going to be games you like, and games you don't like. I loved Awakening, WW, and BotW, but did not like TotK, OoT, and TP. I do think a modern remake of OoT or TP could be something I do like.
I trust Nintendo can make the next Zelda game awesome, but not everyone is going to like it. That's the only thing we know for sure.
I trust Nintendo can make the next Zelda game awesome, but not everyone is going to like it. That's the only thing we know for sure.
Shifty1897
Member
Can't relate, I thought TotK was one of the best games I've ever played.
PauloRoberto
Member
My problem with current zelda is that Nintendo thinks that everything related to Skyward Sword is bad, and that is simply not true... if you give me a Zelda with BOTW/TOTK world and characters... AND SS dungeons, that would be another story.
Gamer_By_Proxy
About to beat off
Square is Zelda now. Demo is out.
Evil Calvin
Afraid of Boobs
I quit playing it as that whole building system was confusing, boring and something I just didn't want to mess with.
KungFucius
King Snowflake
I think Nintendo can support 3 Zelda lines and that the sales will be there for all of them. 2D Zeldas, 3D classic Zeldas and 1 massive open world Zelda per gen. No way in fuck they are not doing another open world Zelda with how well they sold. 2D and 3D Classics can be a mix of remakes and new takes.
JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
Yep, I 10000% agree. I had forgotten how much I hated this. I took far too many hits do to lack of a true evade. Yeah, I found horses to be far more of a hassle to use and a pain in the ass to control even with maximum bond.
Baemono
Gold Member
Nuanced and cold-headed discussions ? Here ? What is happening ?
touchfuzzy
Gold Member
Nah, the old formula had grown hella stale, and if they were still making them that way it would be non-stop criticism and talk of why they had never evolved / changed, Nintendo just keeps making the same game over and over, etc. Sales would have also continued to stagnate and it wouldn't have blossomed into a premiere IP. TOTK and BOTW are #1 and 2 on the best games in the franchise, can't wait to see where they take this style of Zelda next.
CentralScrutinizer
Member
BotW and TotK have phenomenal soundtracks, they just don't have a repetitive overworld theme blaring nonstop. Everything else is there just like in other Zelda games.I really hate the art of silence. Make soundtracks great again!
I mean. What were the Japanese thinking? That Link is on adventure in the shinkansen or Tokyo densha and as soon as there'd be some music the "harmony of society" would be disturbed?
I liked this demo but man it builds a strong case for the beauty of silent protagonists.
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Pagusas
Elden Member
I would absolutely hate to see a linear, small scale, non-open world or hub based Zelda again. I ADORED Breath of the Wild, though I agree with you the lego building aspect of TotK wasn't it and did make the game feel wrong to me. But I absolutely hope the next Zelda is a sprawling open world, that feels alive and lived in, like a bigger, populated Breath of the Kingdom, that encourages exploration.
hououinkyouma00
Member
I was about to jump in this until I saw
GymWolf
's response because I literally went "actually never mind because it's a waste of time if somebody can't see flaws in those games" lolI much prefer the old formula as well, and I say that as somebody that has somewhere in the realm of 100-120 hours between BOTW and TOTK (never finished TOTK as I fell off). I also consider BOTW to be my 4th favorite Zelda game (TWW, MM, OOT, BOTW, TP).
The way I feel about TOTK is weird because I think it's a better game then BOTW in most ways however I think the fact that the map is the same (with additions obviously although the sky islands were deeply disappointing overall) and the overall gameplay being too similar to BOTW which I put at least 70 hours into just sort of made me fall off.
diffusionx
Gold Member
We had basically the same Zelda game for over 25 years. I liked many of them but how many times do we need to play Link to the Past?
CentralScrutinizer
Member
The future of Zelda and the way to make everyone happy is so obvious. Keep the overworld open air. Let people explore and have fun BUT also stop mandating that open air philosophy to be applied to the dungeons. There is no reason why you can't do both at the same time and have it be meaningful.
The Zelda team doesn't do it because they can't do it. They won't do it because they simply refuse to do it. They want the open air philosophy to be applied to every aspect of the game, and that is what is leading people to dislike the modern games. There is a middle ground, and I think the OoT Remake will test that middle ground.
The Zelda team doesn't do it because they can't do it. They won't do it because they simply refuse to do it. They want the open air philosophy to be applied to every aspect of the game, and that is what is leading people to dislike the modern games. There is a middle ground, and I think the OoT Remake will test that middle ground.
Ainem Enamas
Member
I don't know if I would be happy losing all that openworld Zelda brought
DarkShadowXI
Gold Member
I wanna give TotK a real shot now that it's 60FPS.
Also wouldn't mind a re-play of BotW.
They're completely different games with the new updates, but I agree that I was turned off by the building stuff in TotK.
Also wouldn't mind a re-play of BotW.
They're completely different games with the new updates, but I agree that I was turned off by the building stuff in TotK.
ahtlas7
Member
By the copy-paste overabundance of shit, soulless and repetitive content in those games? Why have handcrafted dungeons and locations with actual challenges to overcome when you can have this and still get scores that are close to perfect.
kunonabi
Member
As somebody who's favorite 3D Zelda is Skyward Sword I was down for the big shake up and for first the dozen hours or so it seemed like botw had nailed it. Then you realize how much of the game is boring copy/paste busy work and how the game completely sucks at having a decent payoff to like anything. Then totk offers a few half assed bandaids to some of BotW's issued and ends up being an even more tedious slog. I just have no confidence in them ever making a new mainline Zelda game that's really going to bring everything together. At least not with Aonuma involved.
I loved BOTW after growing super bored of recent Zelda games leading up to that. I was actually so bored of Zelda games that it took me many years to start playing BOTW after it was released. I basically had to force myself to start playing it. But then I realised it was fantastic.
LavitzSlambert
Member
I loved BotW and TotK, but yeah it's time for elements of the classic 3D Zeldas to return.
- Combat and bosses from TP
- Dungeon design from OoT
- Sidequests from MM
I don't see why Nintendo can't better incorporate those within a large open-ish overworld.
- Combat and bosses from TP
- Dungeon design from OoT
- Sidequests from MM
I don't see why Nintendo can't better incorporate those within a large open-ish overworld.
Bruno_Arrais85
Member
It's fine, just add true classic dungeons to the "open air" formula and we are golden
Fbh
Gold Member
I really enjoyed BOTW and TOTK despite their obvious flaws.
Given their success I doubt Nintendo will move away from the open world formula any time soon.
But I still think they could do a better job bringing the old and new style together. You can have your open world while also providing fun, complex and extensive main dungeons like in the older games, ToTK was a step in the right direction in this regard but they can take it much further.
Personally I'd also be willing to give up a certain degree of freedom if it means they can do more interesting level and quest design. It always felt to me that the combination of being able to climb everywhere and basically having all your core tools and gadgets unlocked from the beginning was limiting what they could do with dungeon design. I wouldn't mind getting an open world Zelda with more limited movements and going back to the old formula of unlocking new gadgets and tools as you progress through the dungeons.
Given their success I doubt Nintendo will move away from the open world formula any time soon.
But I still think they could do a better job bringing the old and new style together. You can have your open world while also providing fun, complex and extensive main dungeons like in the older games, ToTK was a step in the right direction in this regard but they can take it much further.
Personally I'd also be willing to give up a certain degree of freedom if it means they can do more interesting level and quest design. It always felt to me that the combination of being able to climb everywhere and basically having all your core tools and gadgets unlocked from the beginning was limiting what they could do with dungeon design. I wouldn't mind getting an open world Zelda with more limited movements and going back to the old formula of unlocking new gadgets and tools as you progress through the dungeons.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Does Echoes of Wisdom count? That came out in 2024.
BlackTron
Member
IMO this is kind of like saying we had the same 2D Mario game for forever. There's no limit to the number of ideas you can express in the level design, enemies, power-ups and bosses without fundamentally changing the IP. World mixed it up quite a bit from 3 with its map screen, in-game powerup bank, Yoshi and saving. But the rules of engagement hadn't changed; if you played 3, you got more Mario levels in World and were unlikely to complain that what makes Mario, Mario had changed.
The inverse example would be Zelda 2. Many people STILL like this game, but it's controversial as a radical departure from the first one. They ended up doubling down on the first game in later installments and that solidified what type of game it is; you could well walk into BOTW hoping for an improved version of that but find a Zelda 2 on your hands. You don't necessarily have to turn the template on its head to make fresh content.
A game with a bigger overworld and physics interactivity but still rewards exploration with things you actually want like fun levels/dungeons to play, retains the core while evolving the game like Mario 3 to World. What they did here was hollow out the core of Zelda and replace it with something else.
"I have all these ideas how to improve Mario...but hear me out. The first thing we do is remove the levels" consider my expectations subverted.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Hopefully the return to the tradition of every Zelda game being mostly different and it's own game.
This is the only the third time (not including the ds and gameboy titles) that Nintendo has made a direct sequel of a zelda entry. First being the adventure of link (sequel to legend of zelda on NES) and second being majoras mask (sequel to ocarina of time).
They have never made 3 zeldas based in the same timeline, on the same link and using the same systems.
So hopefully the next one would be an wholly original entry.
This is the only the third time (not including the ds and gameboy titles) that Nintendo has made a direct sequel of a zelda entry. First being the adventure of link (sequel to legend of zelda on NES) and second being majoras mask (sequel to ocarina of time).
They have never made 3 zeldas based in the same timeline, on the same link and using the same systems.
So hopefully the next one would be an wholly original entry.
Horatius
Member
totk is a complete miracle of coding/engineering, i still have no idea how they made the crafting and physics work so seamlessly on switch 1 hardware.
finding out they added not just a sky world but an entire lower world as well was incredibly impressive and imo i enjoyed the lower world very much.
there is zero chance they ever abandon this formula considering the sales numbers, but there are improvements they can make relatively easily imo with a little imagination.
i'd like to see them build on totk by:
1) returning to a more medieval world. something like dark age hyrule, without all of the technology and rebuilt civilisation. just getting a bit sick of it, plus removing a lot of the fast travel and constant inns and stores is more interesting imo. something between what we have now and skyward sword's proto hyrule. make the dungeons and locations more varied in terms of art and visuals, make them feel like dangerous, unique places again. have fewer more memorable NPCs so that 90% of the dialogue isn't hint-based exposition. have actual physical items do what the current powers do.
2) making this coincide with a possibly optional survival mode where the food and crafting system maintains its relevance for longer. one of the joys of early botw and totk is figuring out how to leverage your resources to enable exploration of environments with extreme conditions. the tutorial area in botw with the cold mountain and the multiple solutions the game gives you to them is a feeling basically not replicated again after an hour into the game as it pelts you with clothes that make the systems pointless. being able to hold too much food and use it at will via menus similarly made combat impossible to fail as well. i love the clothes overall they're really neat but getting the top tier "i solve all your problems" outfits should require the culmination of a lot of effort in the zone, not being handed to you as soon as you get there in a shop.
3) integrate classic zelda dungeons into the game. everyone is calling for this, and i just don't think they clash nearly as much with the philosophy of the games as nintendo thinks. being able to go anywhere doesn't mean you have to be able to do everything immediately when you get there (nor should you really be able to go anywhere without preparation). hell daisy chain the dungeons if you have to, so that e.g. you can beat the first three without any special items barring the item you get in them, the next three only with the special items you get from those three dungeons plus their own item, the next three with all six items plus their own, and a final dungeon that makes you use absolutely everything. i'd be fine with that, would make me go explore more not less.
4) those items can mostly be traversal based with impact on the overworld instead of combat based. the spinner wheel and dual clawshots from TP, gust bellows, dig claws and remote control beetle from SS, deku leaf and grappling hook from WW, all this shit can integrate perfectly with the new physics and elements engine without making it irrelevant. keep the climbing but add a few more surfaces you can't climb without items, or make the items a reward that would increase the speed of your climbing more than just increasing your stamina or making it faster, etc.
5) return to permanent items again in conjunction with the current system. a base level of the item can be made permanent, i.e. you eventually find a standard bow, standard sword, standard spear, standard twohander, standard bomb, standard axe etc. using the crafting system you can upgrade each item along unique lines, but it's these buffs that are temporary like the current weapon breaking system. e.g. turn your sword into an ice sword for a while, upping damage and having the same elemental implications as they do at the moment, but when the ice breaks it goes back to being a normal sword, not just disappearing entirely. rewards for exploration can therefore be materials and recipes for crafting, and eventually upgraded permanent bases to scale your dps appropriately. best of both worlds imo and boosts the survival elements above even more. you could even go full fromsoft and give multiple bases with different movesets and animations and stuff to keep receiving new rewards interesting without it just being damage upgrades.
5) the soundtrack experiment with botw was OK but it's time to return to the traditional approach.
to me this'd basically be the perfect video game i dreamed about as a kid lmao. they're so close to absolute greatness with the current environmental engine and how all the pieces fit together, one more iteration should do the trick imo.
finding out they added not just a sky world but an entire lower world as well was incredibly impressive and imo i enjoyed the lower world very much.
there is zero chance they ever abandon this formula considering the sales numbers, but there are improvements they can make relatively easily imo with a little imagination.
i'd like to see them build on totk by:
1) returning to a more medieval world. something like dark age hyrule, without all of the technology and rebuilt civilisation. just getting a bit sick of it, plus removing a lot of the fast travel and constant inns and stores is more interesting imo. something between what we have now and skyward sword's proto hyrule. make the dungeons and locations more varied in terms of art and visuals, make them feel like dangerous, unique places again. have fewer more memorable NPCs so that 90% of the dialogue isn't hint-based exposition. have actual physical items do what the current powers do.
2) making this coincide with a possibly optional survival mode where the food and crafting system maintains its relevance for longer. one of the joys of early botw and totk is figuring out how to leverage your resources to enable exploration of environments with extreme conditions. the tutorial area in botw with the cold mountain and the multiple solutions the game gives you to them is a feeling basically not replicated again after an hour into the game as it pelts you with clothes that make the systems pointless. being able to hold too much food and use it at will via menus similarly made combat impossible to fail as well. i love the clothes overall they're really neat but getting the top tier "i solve all your problems" outfits should require the culmination of a lot of effort in the zone, not being handed to you as soon as you get there in a shop.
3) integrate classic zelda dungeons into the game. everyone is calling for this, and i just don't think they clash nearly as much with the philosophy of the games as nintendo thinks. being able to go anywhere doesn't mean you have to be able to do everything immediately when you get there (nor should you really be able to go anywhere without preparation). hell daisy chain the dungeons if you have to, so that e.g. you can beat the first three without any special items barring the item you get in them, the next three only with the special items you get from those three dungeons plus their own item, the next three with all six items plus their own, and a final dungeon that makes you use absolutely everything. i'd be fine with that, would make me go explore more not less.
4) those items can mostly be traversal based with impact on the overworld instead of combat based. the spinner wheel and dual clawshots from TP, gust bellows, dig claws and remote control beetle from SS, deku leaf and grappling hook from WW, all this shit can integrate perfectly with the new physics and elements engine without making it irrelevant. keep the climbing but add a few more surfaces you can't climb without items, or make the items a reward that would increase the speed of your climbing more than just increasing your stamina or making it faster, etc.
5) return to permanent items again in conjunction with the current system. a base level of the item can be made permanent, i.e. you eventually find a standard bow, standard sword, standard spear, standard twohander, standard bomb, standard axe etc. using the crafting system you can upgrade each item along unique lines, but it's these buffs that are temporary like the current weapon breaking system. e.g. turn your sword into an ice sword for a while, upping damage and having the same elemental implications as they do at the moment, but when the ice breaks it goes back to being a normal sword, not just disappearing entirely. rewards for exploration can therefore be materials and recipes for crafting, and eventually upgraded permanent bases to scale your dps appropriately. best of both worlds imo and boosts the survival elements above even more. you could even go full fromsoft and give multiple bases with different movesets and animations and stuff to keep receiving new rewards interesting without it just being damage upgrades.
5) the soundtrack experiment with botw was OK but it's time to return to the traditional approach.
to me this'd basically be the perfect video game i dreamed about as a kid lmao. they're so close to absolute greatness with the current environmental engine and how all the pieces fit together, one more iteration should do the trick imo.
TotK was awesome.
SS was mediocre. It was the peak of Zelda going in the wrong direction of too much hand holding. And not enough exploration and freedom to get lost.
In TotK, I totally enjoyed the breaking weapons thing once I bought into it. YOu're supposed to use your weapons and have fun with them while you have them and then move on. It forced you to use what you could find which resulted in using a larger variety of weapons and had a more live off the land feel to it.
The attachment system provided a much larger variety of weapons which kept the game fresh. And you could fuse things together with the quick menu in a second or two.
The inventory management was about as good as it could be.
SS was mediocre. It was the peak of Zelda going in the wrong direction of too much hand holding. And not enough exploration and freedom to get lost.
In TotK, I totally enjoyed the breaking weapons thing once I bought into it. YOu're supposed to use your weapons and have fun with them while you have them and then move on. It forced you to use what you could find which resulted in using a larger variety of weapons and had a more live off the land feel to it.
The attachment system provided a much larger variety of weapons which kept the game fresh. And you could fuse things together with the quick menu in a second or two.
The inventory management was about as good as it could be.
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