The final Tonight Show with Jay Leno

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Ninja Scooter said:
Conan left first. NBC decided to put Leno at 11:30 (because, like you said, it would be too costly to just cancel him) and Conan's Tonight Show at 12:00 and Conan refused. Conan and NBC then agreed on a buyout and with Conan out of the fold, NBC put Leno back in the Tonight Show.
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Of course Conan left first, what they offered would have destroyed both "The Tonight Show" and "Late Night". It's pretty plain to see Leno never got the legacy of Carson or Letterman, "The Tonight Show" for Jay was only ever the biggest stage he could find to tell jokes from, and it's obvious he would killed both franchises just to tell jokes again at 11:35pm.

Had Conan not stepped down Jimmy Fallon would be selling hot dogs right now.
 
J.W.Crazy said:
Steve Allen had guest hosts because he also did a Sunday night show and eventually it became his primary concern so he started taking Monday and Tuesday off. I don't recall if Jack Paar ever regularly had guest hosts. Carson used guest hosts as a way to work less and take more vacations. Leno never had a problem doing 5 nights a week, standup on the weekend, and he never took vacations so he didn't have the need for guest hosts.

The point of the guest host was never to give anyone exposure. Generally they were already fairly well known. People like Judy Garland and Frank Sanatra did it. Even Jay was a successful comedian with regular TV exposure (on Letterman no less) by the time he became guest host.
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Carson, Letterman & Conan (and probably Kimmel) were all lazy & wanted 3 day weekends.
Leno was the only one who wanted to work the full 5 day weekday.
 
-ImaginaryInsider said:
Of course Conan left first, what they offered would have destroyed both "The Tonight Show" and "Late Night". It's pretty plain to see Leno never got the legacy of Carson or Letterman, "The Tonight Show" for Jay was only ever the biggest stage he could find to tell jokes from, and it's obvious he would killed both franchises just to tell jokes again at 11:35pm.

Had Conan not stepped down Jimmy Fallon would be selling hot dogs right now.
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Look into the history of The Tonight Show. It's never been treated well by the network or the hosts. Steve Allen left because he preferred his other show. It underwent a disastrous format change that made it essentially The Today Show at night. Jack Paar walked out (on air) for a month over a censored joke. NBC misled Groucho Marx, Merv Griffen, and others into thinking they were auditioning for the show but they were just filling time while Carson's ABC contract ran out. Carson refused to host the first 15 minutes for almost 2 years. He threaten to go to another network and then to retire completely. He sued NBC, cut the runtime by 30 minutes, and cut back to four episodes a week. Supposedly he promised Joan Rivers she'd be host when he was done to keep her from starting her own show after her success as permanent guest host. Then she hears he's telling everyone else a woman could never be the real host. The Carson/Letterman/Leno mess. Nothing about the shows history indicates it's anything special or sacred. It's legacy is a mess and was well before Jay stepped in to the picture.

I'm a huge Conan fan. Watched every night for years and years but rose tinted glasses and his childhood fantasies of being Johnny Carson make it out to be much more than it is.

See You Next Wednesday said:
Carson, Letterman & Conan (and probably Kimmel) were all lazy & wanted 3 day weekends.
Leno was the only one who wanted to work the full 5 day weekday.
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I don't know if Jay ever taped two episodes a day, I know Conan and Letterman do, but at least they host it themselves. Carson didn't just take the extra day off, he made the network pay somebody else to do his job. I imagine that NBC had a lot to do with the lack of guest hosts after Jay took over. Conan didn't use them in his short stint and I'd be surprised if Jimmy uses them.

Jay did have a guest host once. For some reason I thought it was Oprah but I wasn't sure and nothing turned up when I searched. It was actually Katie Couric as part of some gimmick where they swapped places in 2003.
 
Aside from Letterman's medical leave in 2000 he also experimented with having guest hosts every Friday for a month during the 2003 summer with Tom Green, Tom Arnold, Kelsey Grammer, and Jimmy Fallon.

But CBS put a stop to that because it helped Leno increase his lead.
 
I think the institutional sanctity of the Tonight Show that a lot of people place on it -- Leno and Conan included -- is really overblown. Outside of comedians, who even really cares anymore? It hasn't been any kind of influential platform since Carson left, and while you can place a lot of blame for that at Leno's feet, there's also the fact that it's just not all that relevant anymore; you don't need a talk show host to signal the arrival of the next up-and-coming comic, you can search for them yourself online now. And much as I would have loved for Conan to remain in the seat, it's not as if he was changing up that formula at all to try and make it relevant again. Letterman isn't particularly shaking things up either at CBS.

Fallon will actually probably be the show's biggest shot in the arm, but regardless, the Tonight Show that Carson built is long gone -- there was a time and a place for why that worked as well as it did, and it's just no longer the case anymore. In terms of cultural relevance, I think Stewart and Colbert have effectively stolen the crown as the 21st century Tonight Show.
 
Blader said:
Fallon will actually probably be the show's biggest shot in the arm, but regardless, the Tonight Show that Carson built is long gone -- there was a time and a place for why that worked as well as it did, and it's just no longer the case anymore. In terms of cultural relevance, I think Stewart and Colbert have effectively stolen the crown as the 21st century Tonight Show.
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My thoughts exactly. The simple fact that they aren't following the Carson Tonight Show formula is probably a big reason for their success and why they are so appealing.
 
Blader said:
Fallon will actually probably be the show's biggest shot in the arm, but regardless, the Tonight Show that Carson built is long gone -- there was a time and a place for why that worked as well as it did, and it's just no longer the case anymore. In terms of cultural relevance, I think Stewart and Colbert have effectively stolen the crown as the 21st century Tonight Show.
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The Tonight Show mattered most before the "500 channel universe", and 24/7 broadcasting. (Not to mention the internet.)

When you got 5, maybe 12 channels, and they all went to test pattern at like 12:30, that was the time.
 
WillyFive said:
My thoughts exactly. The simple fact that they aren't following the Carson Tonight Show formula is probably a big reason for their success and why they are so appealing.
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I don't know about formula, but John Stewart is a lot like Carson in how he structures his comedy and plays to the audience. Even the way he handled guests was similar. Leno's style is bigger and brasher, and less subtle for it. Daily Show is probably the closest thing to the Carson Tonight Show.
 
lol this thread is literally everyone fighting against one lone Leno apologist, a monkey wearing a crown. Please stop feeding him(bananas) guys.
 
I agree. At this point the Tonight Show isn't sacred, it's just yet another late night show, of which there are 20 million, all of which use the same formula of monologue, bits, celebrity guests and musical acts. There's also a million channels on TV, a million ways for people to get entertainment at home, a million late night acts, and the Tonight Show is just yet another in a sea of similar stuff available on TV.
 
Aaron said:
I don't know about formula, but John Stewart is a lot like Carson in how he structures his comedy and plays to the audience. Even the way he handled guests was similar. Leno's style is bigger and brasher, and less subtle for it. Daily Show is probably the closest thing to the Carson Tonight Show.
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Agreed.
 
Blader said:
I think the institutional sanctity of the Tonight Show that a lot of people place on it -- Leno and Conan included -- is really overblown. Outside of comedians, who even really cares anymore? It hasn't been any kind of influential platform since Carson left, and while you can place a lot of blame for that at Leno's feet, there's also the fact that it's just not all that relevant anymore; you don't need a talk show host to signal the arrival of the next up-and-coming comic, you can search for them yourself online now. And much as I would have loved for Conan to remain in the seat, it's not as if he was changing up that formula at all to try and make it relevant again. Letterman isn't particularly shaking things up either at CBS.

Fallon will actually probably be the show's biggest shot in the arm, but regardless, the Tonight Show that Carson built is long gone -- there was a time and a place for why that worked as well as it did, and it's just no longer the case anymore. In terms of cultural relevance, I think Stewart and Colbert have effectively stolen the crown as the 21st century Tonight Show.
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Synth_floyd said:
I agree. At this point the Tonight Show isn't sacred, it's just yet another late night show, of which there are 20 million, all of which use the same formula of monologue, bits, celebrity guests and musical acts. There's also a million channels on TV, a million ways for people to get entertainment at home, a million late night acts, and the Tonight Show is just yet another in a sea of similar stuff available on TV.
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Are you kidding me? Sure the internet & more cable channels stole viewers, but that goes for everything. Everything is more segmented now than it was 20 or even 10 years ago. That said, The Tonight show was still at the top of any of them.

It was far & away the most popular & largest audience for comedians, celebrities & musicians to promote their work.

As far as Leno not being influential & relevant, that might have been true for the past couple of years, but in the mid '90s, he was arguably as popular as Carson was at his height.
 
-ImaginaryInsider said:
You're making the argument that Jay was harder working simply because he showed up an extra day, my point is maybe we should look at Jay's comedy output.
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I'm not sure if I'm following this, and like I said, I don't think Leno on the TS is funny, but that has more to do with the writers, likely. However, there is no denying that Leno is the hardest working man on late night. Did you know that Leno still regularly does stand up comedy shows in addition to the tonight show? The guy flies out on the weekend and days off to do these shows. In fact, that's one of the criticisms against Leno. He's a workaholic who only has his wife, his cars, and his shows. He won't slow down or stop.
 
well, without getting into politics of it all, IMHO Leno is funnier than Conan. And a lot better human being than Letterman. Fallon is barely funny and Kimmel is not funny at all.
 
See You Next Wednesday said:
Are you kidding me? Sure the internet & more cable channels stole viewers, but that goes for everything. Everything is more segmented now than it was 20 or even 10 years ago. That said, The Tonight show was still at the top of any of them.

It was far & away the most popular & largest audience for comedians, celebrities & musicians to promote their work.
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I've heard a few comedians say they get more recognition the next day from doing a big podcast like Carolla than they do from Letterman or the Tonight Show. It's possible that's skewed by the fact that nobody in the industry actually seems to watch network TV.

Ninja Scooter said:
Conan's monologues are as bad if not worse than Leno. I have no idea why he keeps doing them.
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I used to watch The Daily Show, Leno, and Conan on a nightly basis and I noticed Conan and Stewart would regularly be doing the same jokes as Leno for a given news story. They're all pretty bad but somehow Leno takes the brunt of it. When you factor in how quick the turn around is they don't really have much time to do anything but the most obvious surface level humor. Of course I've seen SNL do jokes on weekend update that everybody in Late Night already did on Monday so I don't know what their excuse is.
 
J.W.Crazy said:
I've heard a few comedians say they get more recognition the next day from doing a big podcast like Carolla than they do from Letterman or the Tonight Show. It's possible that's skewed by the fact that nobody in the industry actually seems to watch network TV.
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Late Show segments/jokes get re-aired on ESPN, MSNBC, CNN, ABC etc... when there is a popular topic or discussion going on.
The Hugh Grant Jay Leno interview & the Andy Kaufman/Jerry Lawler incident on Letterman were talked about & remembered for decades.

I doubt a podcast can compete with that.
 
SoulPlaya said:
I'm not sure if I'm following this, and like I said, I don't think Leno on the TS is funny, but that has more to do with the writers, likely. However, there is no denying that Leno is the hardest working man on late night. Did you know that Leno still regularly does stand up comedy shows in addition to the tonight show? The guy flies out on the weekend and days off to do these shows. In fact, that's one of the criticisms against Leno. He's a workaholic who only has his wife, his cars, and his shows. He won't slow down or stop.
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The other poster specifically said that Conan and Letterman were lazy effectively because they work one day less than Leno, my point is that quality is more important than quantity. I have no doubt Jay works more days, but he's also not cranking out anything notable, the guy has been on autopilot since the 90's.

In the end, lots of comedians have been inspired and influenced by Carson/Letterman/Conan, who has Jay Leno inspired? Possibly one poster in this thread, who I'm guessing is Mavis Leno.
 
DarkFlow said:
That number means jack shit. He pulled a 3.8 share in the only number that matters, meaning a bunch of old people warched that no one cares about. Conan pulled a 4.8 on his final, a full point more.
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It never was going to be as high as Conan's because there is no big controversy this time. You sure do seem to be quite upset about something that happened 4 years ago though.
 
-ImaginaryInsider said:
The other poster specifically said that Conan and Letterman were lazy effectively because they work one day less than Leno, my point is that quality is more important than quantity. I have no doubt Jay works more days, but he's also not cranking out anything notable, the guy has been on autopilot since the 90's.

In the end, lots of comedians have been inspired and influenced by Carson/Letterman/Conan, who has Jay Leno inspired? Possibly one poster in this thread, who I'm guessing is Mavis Leno.
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Carson & Letterman (pre CBS) influenced many, sure, but who did Conan influence?
Leno worked in comedy clubs across the country for years before he got the Tonight Show, pretty sure he had a bigger impact on future comedians than Conan ever did.
 
-ImaginaryInsider said:
The other poster specifically said that Conan and Letterman were lazy effectively because they work one day less than Leno, my point is that quality is more important than quantity. I have no doubt Jay works more days, but he's also not cranking out anything notable, the guy has been on autopilot since the 90's.

In the end, lots of comedians have been inspired and influenced by Carson/Letterman/Conan, who has Jay Leno inspired? Possibly one poster in this thread, who I'm guessing is Mavis Leno.
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David Letterman is my favorite talk show host, but no one has been on more autopilot in recent years than him. He's still better than everyone else, but that's the truth. And Conan influenced no one, really. He's not a comedian. He's a great (now decent) talk show host. Not a knock against him, but it's true. At the very least, Leno's stand up career was more influential.

Now, the issue here is that we don't know how Jay's stand up shows are. Remember, these guys usually don't write their own jokes, or just a minority of them. I used to think Leno sucked, but after seeing more of his standup work, I don't know.

BTW, do you know who was influenced by Leno? David Letterman.

Check this video.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/05/b...leno-and-letterman-told-by-seinfeld.html?_r=0
 
See You Next Wednesday said:
Carson & Letterman (pre CBS) influenced many, sure, but who did Conan influence?
Leno worked in comedy clubs across the country for years before he got the Tonight Show, pretty sure he had a bigger impact on future comedians than Conan ever did.
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Conan and Lorne influenced NBC, Fallon, Meyers.

Also, he isn't a comedian.
 
Draconian said:
It never was going to be as high as Conan's because there is no big controversy this time. You sure do seem to be quite upset about something that happened 4 years ago though.
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Okay? Why do I seem upset again? You seem to be projecting, see I can make up random shit too!
 
SoulPlaya said:
David Letterman is my favorite talk show host, but no one has been on more autopilot in recent years than him. He's still better than everyone else, but that's the truth. And Conan influenced no one, really. He's not a comedian. He's a great (now decent) talk show host. Not a knock against him, but it's true. At the very least, Leno's stand up career was more influential.
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Leno's early stand up was good, but the closer he got to The Tonight Show, the more homogenization he made himself. His tenure on Tonight was one of the safest and most empty entries to ever grace late night tv. Letterman isn't what he use to be, but after numerous decades, who is? Leno doesn't even have a decline to complain about, he has been puttering along his entire "Tonight" career, and his legacy on Tonight is now defined pretty much totally by the Carson/Letterman/Conan controversy.

The mark Conan left on The Simpsons alone touched more people than Leno's pre-Tonight Show standup, and discounting all of Conan's Late Night career. Conan isn't a classic "punchline" comedian, but to say he's not a comedian is like saying Will Ferrell isn't a comedian. Look at something like the Colbert Report and tell me you don't see a heritage from the absurdist comedy of Conan's Late Night.

I believe Jay to be a good guy and funny, but his run on Tonight was a block of Tofu in comparison with almost everyone else's out there.
 
-ImaginaryInsider said:
Leno's early stand up was good, but the closer he got to The Tonight Show, the more homogenization he made himself. His tenure on Tonight was one of the safest and most empty entries to ever grace late night tv. Letterman isn't what he use to be, but after numerous decades, who is? Leno doesn't even have a decline to complain about, he has been puttering along his entire "Tonight" career, and his legacy on Tonight is now defined pretty much totally by the Carson/Letterman/Conan controversy.

The mark Conan left on The Simpsons alone touched more people than Leno's pre-Tonight Show standup, and discounting all of Conan's Late Night career. Conan isn't a classic "punchline" comedian, but to say he's not a comedian is like saying Will Ferrell isn't a comedian. Look at something like the Colbert Report and tell me you don't see a heritage from the absurdist comedy of Conan's Late Night.

I believe Jay to be a good guy and funny, but his run on Tonight was a block of Tofu in comparison with almost everyone else's out there.
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I agree with you. He was terrible on TTS, but I thought we were discussing strictly comedians here (as in, stand up).
 
-ImaginaryInsider said:
The mark Conan left on The Simpsons alone touched more people than Leno's pre-Tonight Show standup, and discounting all of Conan's Late Night career. Conan isn't a classic "punchline" comedian, but to say he's not a comedian is like saying Will Ferrell isn't a comedian. Look at something like the Colbert Report and tell me you don't see a heritage from the absurdist comedy of Conan's Late Night.
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Yep.
 
See You Next Wednesday said:
I used to really like him, but he handled the whole situation during the Tonight Show controversy really badly.
The documentary about him following that, made him look like an even bigger jackass.
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He handled it like a comedian, mining the situation for some pretty great lines and sketches, and to be completely honest, he ended his Tonight Show run with more class and genuine emotion than both of Jay's final episodes managed.

The documentary was a documentary, it wasn't meant to be a PR puff piece that makes him look all squeaky clean... He's a guy with an ego and is a flawed human being, was a more interesting watch because of that aspect imo.

But all this begs the question, how do you think he should have handled it?
 
-ImaginaryInsider said:
He handled it like a comedian, mining the situation for some pretty great lines and sketches, and to be completely honest, he ended his Tonight Show run with more class and genuine emotion than both of Jay's final episodes managed.

The documentary was a documentary, it wasn't meant to be a PR puff piece that makes him look all squeaky clean... He's a guy with an ego and is a flawed human being, was a more interesting watch because of that aspect imo.

But all this begs the question, how do you think he should have handled it?
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Having his agents attack Leno behind the scenes & using the Tonight show to personally attack Leno on the air, he came off as petty, jealous & small.

Say what you want about Leno not passing off the torch & breaking his "promise", he always kept it classy on the air.
He never directly used the show to attack someone he had a personal grievance with. The only time I remember was that one brief swipe about Letterman's wife, after Letterman started taking about him regularly on his show.

He also never did any backroom negotiating to screw Conan over. It was NBC who did all that.
When he found out his long time agent (and executive producer of the TS) had a part in getting Carson off the air, he fired her on the spot.
Even though he was forced off the air a 2nd time, he still wasn't bitter about it. He left with a smile on both occasions.
 
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