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[ShockingAlberto]

You know, I'm curious.

Why "almost all"? What stage could not be made in to Final Destination?

 

[bawk]

Of course Smash is balanced around projectiles. There are characters in Smash that can deal with projectiles just as easily as you described that there are characters in SF that can deal with projectiles. Smash of all games also has a huge emphasis on vertical play which makes projectile spamming all the more difficult. Smash is arguably the most balanced fighting game in terms of projectiles.

Not well. and projectiles are only the simplest example of how a map like FD can be tilted one way or another. Its favors characters that can control their horizontal space very well, (generally characters with projectiles) and poops on characters who have poor vertical movement ie. Bowser. You can argue that Bowser has 'more health' in that he is of a heavier weight class, but with Directional influence what people might consider 'health' for a game like Smash is very very fluid.

Here I'm about to bounce but the Smash wikia sums up a lot of the problems with FD in terms of its 'balance' http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Special_Stages:_Final_Destination

 

[HK-47]

You know, I'm curious.

Why "almost all"? What stage could not be made in to Final Destination?

Final Destination gets a battlefield form. Everyone is stunned.

 

[Solid Samus]

You asked why FD is unbalanced and I said it is because it's even. I mean that in the most literal sense. The platform is perfectly even and there is only one platform making it the plainest and most balanced stage. Yes there are other stages that are just as balanced such as Battlefield. Just because Smash can be played in a variety of ways and stages doesn't negate the mathematical fact that FD is the most even and balanced stage there could possibly be.

When talking about balance you have to consider matchups and each character's specific abilities. There are quite simply plenty of characters who are much better suited for gameplay on a completely flat level than a level with platforms like Battlefield.

 

[JCX]

You know, I'm curious.

Why "almost all"? What stage could not be made in to Final Destination?

Final Destination

 

[Logoth]

Final Destination

Poke Floats Redux

 

[Solid Samus]

What if I want to play with no items but with a stage select? Can you show me that mode, please?

sure it's called Hit Up The GAF |OT| On Release Day And Add Everyone

(I'm hoping patches enable what you're asking for in the future, I really do, but otherwise looks like you're gonna be doing friend matches if that's what you want)

 

[Toxi]

I appreciate Sakurai at least attempting to make a mode catered towards competitive play, even if the execution is off.

Seems like Mac will have an unfair advantage on flat stages.

Mac nothing, Falco is gonna be terrifying.

 

[atr0cious]

I think the person that directed all Smash games knows more on what Smash is 'dependent' on.

To this, I took note than Sakurai specifically shows off Lil' Mac ability to go through shoto blasts, so maybe Sakurai is going to put more emphasis on the ground game in this one, as Brawl was designed with more air battles in mind.

 

[Broritos]

Not well. and projectiles are only the simplest example of how a map like FD can be tilted one way or another. Its favors characters that can control their horizontal space very well, (generally characters with projectiles) and poops on characters who have poor vertical movement ie. Bowser. You can argue that Bowser has 'more health' in that he is of a heavier weight class, but with Directional influence what people might consider 'health' for a game like Smash is very very fluid.

Here I'm about to bounce but the Smash wikia sums up a lot of the problems with FD in terms of its 'balance' http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Special_Stages:_Final_Destination

When talking about balance you have to consider matchups and each character's specific abilities. There are quite simply plenty of characters who are much better suited for gameplay on a completely flat level than a level with platforms like Battlefield.

That's a problem with the character, not the stage. There are plenty of characters that excel in both flat and varied terrain.

To this, I took note than Sakurai specifically shows off Lil' Mac ability to go through shoto blasts, so maybe Sakurai is going to put more emphasis on the ground game in this one, as Brawl was designed with more air battles in mind.

I don't think groundplay will be more important than air though. I think he's really trying to strike a perfect balance of the two.

 

[HK-47]

Implying that the director of the excellent core Kirby games isn't worth trusting. My eyes, they're rolling into the back of my head.

I'd add to that they're the only ones making official new games so yeah, you'll have to live with it. And I would also agree that Sakurai knows more about actual game development than everyone here, myself included.

We have a product for you and it's called Super Smash Bros. Melee.

That doesnt even make fucking sense, for a multitude of reasons. Cmon you can at least give me a C effort here.

 

[Riki]

You know, I'm curious.

Why "almost all"? What stage could not be made in to Final Destination?

Palutena's Temple, I would assume.

 

[Pociask]

Not well. and projectiles are only the simplest example of how a map like FD can be tilted one way or another. Its favors characters that can control their horizontal space very well, (generally characters with projectiles) and poops on characters who have poor vertical movement ie. Bowser. You can argue that Bowser has 'more health' in that he is of a heavier weight class, but with Directional influence what people might consider 'health' for a game like Smash is very very fluid.

Here I'm about to bounce but the Smash wikia sums up a lot of the problems with FD in terms of its 'balance' http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Special_Stages:_Final_Destination

I haven't seen mentioned how the same direct showed off a character's new special ability to attract items, and then later showed that for glory mode, for serious players who want a win loss record, doesn't have items.

 

[KarmaCow]

in this thread, Everyone's Favorite Smash Fallacies

Melee wasn't intuitive or accessible
Competitive players don't know how to have fun. Mutually exclusive concepts.
Hardcore players will only accept a Melee redux
Namco and Sakurai don't care about the competitive scene, even when he's throwing them a somewhat misguided (and hopefully subject to change) bone instead of taking the bones away

This is the weirdest thing, the idea that Melee was somehow not accessible that seemingly popped up almost a decade after Melee came out.

I can understand Sakurai not liking how the community integrated unintended mechanics, increasing the complexity but Melee was still a blast to play even for people who didn't know anything about say wave dashing.

You know, I'm curious.

Why "almost all"? What stage could not be made in to Final Destination?

Moving stages, like 3D World or Pokefloats wouldn't really work.

 

[HK-47]

To this, I took note than Sakurai specifically shows off Lil' Mac ability to go through shoto blasts, so maybe Sakurai is going to put more emphasis on the ground game in this one, as Brawl was designed with more air battles in mind.

Brawl was designed with turtling in mind. There was no real air game because you couldnt combo.

 

[theprodigy]

That doesnt even make fucking sense, for a multitude of reasons. Cmon you can at least give me a C effort here.

also using Mattrick to make that argument is hilarious for so many reasons

 

[KarmaCow]

I haven't seen mentioned how the same direct showed off a character's new special ability to attract items, and then later showed that for glory mode, for serious players who want a win loss record, doesn't have items.

You mean Rosalina's special? That affects more than items, they also showed it redirecting projectiles.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Implying that the director of the excellent core Kirby games isn't worth trusting. My eyes, they're rolling into the back of my head.

Those are single player games and have nothing to do with the matter at hand. I don't trust any single developer to get balance and mechanics right from the get-go when it comes to multiplayer games (and especially fighting games) without relying on some form of data from matches played at a high level. That's not a jab, I just consider it an impossible task, because you only have so much time to develop a game, as opposed to competitive players who can spend years trying to break it. This is part of why loketests are a thing for some games. Tapping into that knowledge doesn't solve everything but it helps.

But hey, enjoy the sight of your own skull if you wish.

 

[Solid Samus]

That's a problem with the character, not the stage. There are plenty of characters that excel in both flat and varied terrain.

In a discussion about balance you have to consider the characters and the stages, as I had mentioned, because they both play somewhat equal roles. Have you ever played Smash competitively? What is it that makes a flat stage inherently more 'balanced' than a stage like Battlefield, which enables flat ground and platform tactics all at once? Just because it's featureless? Because that featurelessness allows characters with projectiles or characters that rely on spacing to shine. Falco for example is a god damned beast on that map in Melee and Project M and it's because of things like shine->stomp chains which are easier on that map than most others and easy ledgeguarding which is the same situation, easy peasy on FD. Game and Watch is a beast on that map because he has less to worry about spacing-wise and can predict your approach a lot better. Whereas other characters like Lucas and Snake (project M) benefit from platforms for many of their best abilities and combos. It could be argued that it's a more balanced map than most others just because of its symmetry but even then it's not the kind of map you want to limit yourself to playing on depending on your character.

Implying that the director of the excellent core Kirby games isn't worth trusting. My eyes, they're rolling into the back of my head.

I'd add to that they're the only ones making official new games so yeah, you'll have to live with it. And I would also agree that Sakurai knows more about actual game development than everyone here, myself included.

It helps to note that with Brawl, Sakurai handled the character balancing entirely himself.

Which I'm sure is part of why Diddy, Snake, and Meta Knight make Melee Spacies and Shiek look like paragons of balance

 

[HK-47]

There's always something to complain about, even when Sakurai turns every damn stage into an optional Final Destination. I just don't get you folks.

Its okay for criticism to exist. Also thats not a very fair assessment of said criticism.

 

[guek]

So there's been some talk about starting a "add a battlefield layout to for glory mode for every stage" Twitter campaign. It's painfully clear that Sakurai keeps up with the desires and requests of the fanbase (whether he listens or not is a different matter entirely). If people request it, I'd be willing to get the ball rolling and make a thread.

 

[HK-47]

So there's been some talk about starting a "add a battlefield layout to for glory mode for every stage" Twitter campaign. It's painfully clear that Sakurai keeps up with the desires and requests of the fanbase (whether he listens or not is a different matter entirely). If people request it, I'd be willing to get the ball rolling and make a thread.

We also need one for Smashville.

Also every stage should get a Pokemon Stadium variant with 4 transformations.

 

[Nose Master]

I guess this sort of balances out the madness that custom move sets will create in the tournament scene.

 

[Broritos]

In a discussion about balance you have to consider the characters and the stages, as I had mentioned, because they both play somewhat equal roles. Have you ever played Smash competitively? What is it that makes a flat stage inherently more 'balanced' than a stage like Battlefield, which enables flat ground and platform tactics all at once? Just because it's featureless? Because that featurelessness allows characters with projectiles or characters that rely on spacing to shine. Falco for example is a god damned beast on that map in Melee and Project M and it's because of things like shine->stomp chains which are easier on that map than most others and easy ledgeguarding which is the same situation, easy peasy on FD. Game and Watch is a beast on that map because he has less to worry about spacing-wise and can predict your approach a lot better. Whereas other characters like Lucas and Snake (project M) benefit from platforms for many of their best abilities and combos. It could be argued that it's a more balanced map than most others just because of its symmetry but even then it's not the kind of map you want to limit yourself to playing on depending on your character.

There are many different movesets and different gameplay styles designers can create for characters. There is no stage that can be made that will be more mathematically even than FD in terms of fighting games. If a character doesn't have it's own unique solution for certain situations it may encounter, that is the fault of how the character was made. I've played Smash since the first game and can play every character very well and I main as Mario despite him obviously not being as good as other characters.

 

[Solid Samus]

There are many different movesets and different gameplay styles designers can create for characters. There is no stage that can be made that will be more mathematically even than FD in terms of fighting games. If a character doesn't have it's own unique solution for certain situations it may encounter, that is the fault of how the character was made. I've played Smash since the first game and can play every character very well and I main as Mario despite him obviously not being as good as other characters.

Yeah, I suppose you can't get more balanced from a strictly map-design perspective than Final Destination (maybe Battlefield), I'm just fussed that Final Destination is the only option because not all characters are balanced well for the map and I think that might skew the flow, the emerging metagame, the character selections seen in For Glory. Game should allow a choice between Battlefield and FD at the very least

 

[injurai]

I guess this sort of balances out the madness that custom move sets will create in the tournament scene.

I'm not so sure you can balance that unless they selectively ban certain custom sets.

 

[kittens]

This is a really cool option. It'll be nice to get some variety.

 

[Broritos]

Yeah, I suppose you can't get more balanced from a strictly map-design perspective than Final Destination (maybe Battlefield), I'm just fussed that Final Destination is the only option because not all characters are balanced well for the map and I think that might skew the flow, the emerging metagame, the character selections seen in For Glory. Game should allow a choice between Battlefield and FD at the very least

Yea, I'm concerned about that too but since a big chunk of the direct was dedicated to how they're balancing the characters and Sakurai choosing that only FD will be in For Glory makes me think that all characters will be equally balanced or at least very close to equal not just on FD but on all stages.

 

[Solid Samus]

I'm not so sure you can balance that unless they selectively ban certain custom sets.

I don't know how the tourney scene will react to custom movesets. Without an option to download and apply custom sets other people made I don't see anything coming of this in that scene. If that is an option, hell, you never know. tell you what it'd take a whole lot less time for the player base to rebalance characters this time around. And it'd be sick if that was part of the intention because Sakurai just has to be aware of Project M and Smash's tourney scene in general

 

[a916]

I would have liked it if they had Final Destination OR Battlefield versions for #ForGlory mode. A lot of tournament levels have platforms on them...

 

[KarmaCow]

There are many different movesets and different gameplay styles designers can create for characters. There is no stage that can be made that will be more mathematically even than FD in terms of fighting games. If a character doesn't have it's own unique solution for certain situations it may encounter, that is the fault of how the character was made. I've played Smash since the first game and can play every character very well and I main as Mario despite him obviously not being as good as other characters.

What does that even mean, how is Final Destination more even than Battlefield? Not that Battlefield is the somehow the most "even" stage either but I cannot understand how you think FD is more balanced other than it has less, as if that means anything.

 

[Penguin]

Maybe I don't understand the system perfectly

But are people upset that they can't play competitively against others online on more than FD or that it won't count any other way?

Like why couldn't you set up an online match in another stage and have the same rule parameters or something?

 

[NeonZ]

I think you're overlooking that this is a new game that seems to be going through heavy balance changes. If Sakurai is now rebalancing every character primarily for Final Destination, unlike in previous games, then making it the only arena shouldn't be a problem for the balance.

You know, I'm curious.

Why "almost all"? What stage could not be made in to Final Destination?

Maybe something like Mushroomy Kingdom, where removing the geometry and scrolling basically kills the entire point?

 

[Artanisix]

Maybe I don't understand the system perfectly

But are people upset that they can't play competitively against others online on more than FD or that it won't count any other way?

Like why couldn't you set up an online match in another stage and have the same rule parameters or something?

Because competitive smash fans are seriously the whiniest, most insufferable group of gamers I've ever had the displeasure of witnessing.

And I thought the Dota community was awful.

 

[danielcw]

It was answered in the first post I made.

Sorry, I don't see it, maybe you could link there, please?

Anyway, my point is,
instead of claiming somebody hasn't actually said anything,
(which wasn't true by the way)
maybe you could actually answer the question somebody asked you.

 

[Riposte]

This thread certainly contains the same defensive, purposeful ignorance towards what "competitive play" is that every Smash Bros thread seems to be doomed with. Resolution doesn't come easy because they don't want to understand; this is just a method to deal with those that makes them feel threatened. Even if "these players who are not playing to have fun" (lol) were minding their own business, their existence is troubling to these other players, that's why they butt in and give their opinions (attack) on things they do not care to understand. It's an inferiority complex in a way.

This comes off as trolling more than anything else. The least he could do is have four Final Destination variants in For Glory;

- Flat (vanilla FD)
- One larger platform (Smashville, Halberd)
- Two platforms (Pokemon Stadium)
- Three platforms (Battlefield, Lylat Cruise)

There. Plenty of variety while remaining more or less neutral.

This would make an excellent option (you could go a step further and split Smashville and Halberd or add in a Fountain of Dreams layout). Better yet, players should be able to vote on this and have some determination in stage selection.

I'm surprised we haven't had one thread to detail all the things that are shitty about Smash's new online modes. As someone who has no plans to join the Smash tourney scene, I find it extremely limited. It's terribly archaic compared to similar fighting games or games with similar feature sets (shooters). Complete butt.

 

[Solid Samus]

Because competitive smash fans are seriously the whiniest, most insufferable group of gamers I've ever had the displeasure of witnessing.

And I thought the Dota community was awful.

God damn. What kinda shitheels have you run into that would make you put competitive Smash players on literally any MOBA's level?

Cuz I mean if you're talking about the kind of shit that goes on in competitive enthusiast boards then Smash is... yeah but the worst? IDK about that

 

[Professor Beef]

Because competitive smash fans are seriously the whiniest, most insufferable group of gamers I've ever had the displeasure of witnessing.

And I thought the Dota community was awful.

 

[Codeblue]

That's a problem with the character, not the stage. There are plenty of characters that excel in both flat and varied terrain.

Then every stage is the most balanced stage and any disadvantage is purely the fault of the character.

 

[Sandfox]

Does this really matter for competitive players when tournaments and sessions will be in person or with registered friends meaning they won't be using this mode?

 

[Grakl]

Because competitive smash fans are seriously the whiniest, most insufferable group of gamers I've ever had the displeasure of witnessing.

And I thought the Dota community was awful.

truth

 

[friskykillface]

Poke Floats Redux

I'd kill for poke floats to be a stage again

there are 64884786 pokemon so it can be done on Wii u

 

[Het_Nkik]

Am I crazy or is Toon Link standing IN the flowers next to the house in this pic? As in, the house would be a wall/platform.

 

[Chezzymann]

Am I crazy or is Toon Link standing IN the flowers next to the house in this pic? As in, the house would be a wall/platform.

It looks like he's just jumping.

 

[_Slay]

Am I crazy or is Toon Link standing IN the flowers next to the house in this pic? As in, the house would be a wall/platform.

Jump animation

 

[Anth0ny]

Because competitive smash fans are seriously the whiniest, most insufferable group of gamers I've ever had the displeasure of witnessing.

And I thought the Dota community was awful.

truth

did one of those creeps force you to play with items off

 

[GamerJM]

We also need one for Smashville.

Also every stage should get a Pokemon Stadium variant with 4 transformations.

Alternatively instead of a "Battlefield form for every stage," there should be a campaign for different competitive versions of every stage with different platform layouts (i.e. one has Smashville-esque layout, one with Battlefield, one with Yoshi's Story, etc.).

 

[Freezie KO]

Does this really matter for competitive players when tournaments and sessions will be in person or with registered friends meaning they won't be using this mode?

The point of the mode is obviously to appeal to people who want to play a more competitive and less random/chaotic game. Considering how the Smash community has been fine-tuning that for years, it wouldn't hurt to get their input and get the mode right.

Even if you're not going to completely mold "For Glory" to Evo standards, at least have different public playlists and options, such as the type that shooters have had for years and years.

Personally, I never envision myself being a competitive player that goes to tournaments and competes in person. I'd still like the ruleset to emulate that experience when I want to test my skill. And when I don't, I have "For Fun" mode.

 

[WhyMe6]

Excellent news, I love that I can experience more of the wonderful soundtrack if I want to play in FD. Now, they need to Battlefield everything.

 

[Cody_D165]

I approve of this idea for the simple fact that this means we won't be getting any stage hazards while the stages are in this form, but Battlefield versions would also be ideal. Otherwise I imagine a *lot* of Little Mac usage in For Glory mode due to his fantastic-looking ground game.