Dear Girls Who Are (Finally) Ready To Date Fedoras: We Don't Want You Anymore, M'Lady

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TheKad it isn't a betrayal of self to grow and to pursue new interests, you're just becoming the best you that you can be. It's hard for an egg to become a bird, but an egg can never learn to fly.
 
My god the sheer amount of Salt in the OP statement. I would love to see what made people like this so bitter, although most are probably just from High School rejections. It would be interesting regardless.

P.S. Ziro Audi Quattro is GOAT for appearance.
 
Branching out and discovering new interests isn't changing who you are as a person. It's literally adding to the things you like. That's it.

I'm glad you've turned on to what literally means so maybe we can try this again.

Adding is literally change. Improvement is literally change. You are literally changing who you are to be a more attractive person.

There's nothing wrong with that.


TheKad it isn't a betrayal of self to grow and to pursue new interests, you're just becoming the best you that you can be. It's hard for an egg to become a bird, but an egg can never learn to fly.

Of course it's not a betrayal. That's ridiculous. It's simply positive change.
 
I'll give you a clue:

The games you play don't define you as a person. Your favorite food doesn't define you as a person.

Branching out and discovering new interests isn't changing who you are as a person. It's literally adding to the things you like. That's it.

Let's see.

An asshole likes video games and drawing. He decides to go out and see if he likes rock climbing. He does!

Is he still an asshole?

Taken from another angle though... If someone if an asshole, shouldn't they change that? If someone is unknowingly uncomfortable to be around, and they want to be social, shouldn't they address that? I guess there is an assumption here, and that assumption is that people who are needing this sort of advice often have fundamental issues with themselves, or aren't aware that parts of their personality make it difficult to socialize...


I guess what I'm getting at is that I really disagree with the idea that "being yourself" is a defacto good thing. Change who you are to be the person you want to be, don't just shrug your shoulders at your flaws and say "this is who I am" if those flaws cause misery for your and everyone around you.

I had an ex like that, who had a lot of things she needed to work on, but didn't. Part of that was because she was so sure that being "herself" includeded all these bad things, and that in the end the people around her should just learn to accept it. Heck, she didn't even like the stuff she did, but she just... assumed that she couldn't change. Also, she was really lazy about a lot of things, and changing yourself for the better is hard.
 
I'm glad you've turned on to what literally means so maybe we can try this again.

Adding is literally change. Improvement is literally change. You are literally changing who you are to be a more attractive person.

There's nothing wrong with that.

Please, really, stop attempting to insult me. I don't understand what I've personally done to piss you off, but it seems like recently you've been coming into threads with the express purpose of trying to pick a fight with me.

And I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Adding to your list of interests doesn't change who you are because people are more than just lists of interests. I am truly sorry that you believe they are.
 
Must have been a bad rejection to hold it against someone for over a decade. But he got the last laugh though. Oh he got her good.

*Tipping intensifies*

I cant believe this is real though. Just can't.

Our revenge is now, brothers!

Huzzah.
 
God, this recent spate of relationship threads reminds me how I used to be several years ago. I was totally one of these guys. Glad I finally grew up. ;)
I read things like this article and remember what it was like to feel similar incredibly negative and angry sentiments, but god, I was 15. It's so cringe-y now to think some adults are still thinking and behaving this way. They've sincerely never self-examined. The guy's insecurities are so plainly visible.
 
Please, really, stop attempting to insult me. I don't understand what I've personally done to piss you off, but it seems like recently you've been coming into threads with the express purpose of trying to pick a fight with me.

And I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Adding to your list of interests doesn't change who you are because people are more than just lists of interests. I am truly sorry that you believe they are.

I don't know if I agree with this at all. You are the sum of your parts, and everything can be changed. If you take up martial arts, that's a hobby but it -changes- you in so many ways. If you take some philosophy classes, that changes you too.

If you're someone who is not good at being kind, but you want to be, something about who are needs to change. And I think that should be encouraged, I think everyone should be made to feel as though they have a say about who they are.
 
Taken from another angle though... If someone if an asshole, shouldn't they change that? If someone is unknowingly uncomfortable to be around, and they want to be social, shouldn't they address that? I guess there is an assumption here, and that assumption is that people who are needing this sort of advice often have fundamental issues with themselves, or aren't aware that parts of their personality make it difficult to socialize...


I guess what I'm getting at is that I really disagree with the idea that "being yourself" is a defacto good thing. Change who you are to be the person you want to be, don't just shrug your shoulders at your flaws and say "this is who I am" if those flaws cause misery for your and everyone around you.

I had an ex like that, who had a lot of things she needed to work on, but didn't. Part of that was because she was so sure that being "herself" includeded all these bad things, and that in the end the people around her should just learn to accept it. Heck, she didn't even like the stuff she did, but she just... assumed that she couldn't change. Also, she was really lazy about a lot of things, and changing yourself for the better is hard.
the presumption of 'be yourself' is that you are not a creature of abject misery ruining everything around you. being yourself means not putting up a facade in an attempt to curry interest or gain attention. the concept seems very simple to me, yet it always ends up with pages of discussion.
 
This reminds me of this comedians rant, but it was about black girls. I cant seem to find it though. It went something like.
"Black girls hate it when black guys 'sell out' and date a white girl. Thats cause black girls are looking for Tupac when theyre 20, ignoring the Urkels. Then they turn 30 and theyre confused why they cant find a Tiger Woods."
 
Please, really, stop attempting to insult me. I don't understand what I've personally done to piss you off, but it seems like recently you've been coming into threads with the express purpose of trying to pick a fight with me.

And I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Adding to your list of interests doesn't change who you are because people are more than just lists of interests. I am truly sorry that you believe they are.

This is the same poster who thinks that being attractive is the answer for everyone as if we all don't have different interests. I don't think he's going to understand the point we're all making.
 
I think Fiction said it best when they re-worded it "Don't be fake."

"Be yourself" really is too vague, and Fiction is using a particularly vague definition of it that doesn't include your interests, or apparently your social ability (since the only suggestion is to go out and do interesting things, which many people lack the skills to do.) Expanding one's horizons is change, and it's very difficult for many people. They ARE disadvantaged and they WILL need to change if they want to increase their chances of finding a mate. That doesn't mean they suddenly need to be an extrovert, but being an introvert is objectively more difficult when it comes to meeting people. It's just basic math really. You are a block of wood whereas the outgoing person is a pile of sawdust. You lack surface area. That doesn't mean you need to become an extrovert, or change some super "core" thing about yourself, but you may need to change your lifestyle.

But in attempting to solve that problem, don't be fake, which was a good point Fiction made.
 
the presumption of 'be yourself' is that you are not a creature of abject misery ruining everything around you. being yourself means not putting up a facade in an attempt to curry interest or gain attention. the concept seems very simple to me, yet it always ends up with pages of discussion.

I think because once you really pursue it, it can be counter intuitive. Are you the same person after you take up archery, spend some time learning discrete math, and take a couple of dance classes? That changes so much about who you are, that it doesn't seem at all valuable to say 'be yourself'. Telling someone not to put on a facade is one thing, but I think we should be encouraging people to -change who they are- and become exactly the sort of person they want to be.
 
Looks like there are different definition of 'change' in this thread. One is narrow(er), and mostly about categorically parsing someone's interest and preferences.

I think, personally, an individual can 'discover' more about him/herself without actually 'transforming' into another person.

Abstract stuff is abstract
 
You guys realize you're just arguing nature/nurture, right? The experiences you have shape who you are and the kind of person you are is going to shape the way your experiences play out.
 
For some reason this whole "fedora" thing seems to be a popular way for people to be as hedonistic / apathetic as humanly possible to people who are overly-bitter, and naive about not properly courting a woman they had their mind set on.

Maybe I'm just missing something.
 
Okay, for the "being yourself" thing.

Recently, there was a study on OKCupid looking at the people who got the most hits/dates off of the site. What they found was that people who used a profile picture that was fairly normal (they didn't look gross, weren't supermodel gorgeous either... just kinda normal in a picture pose) got the most hits by a wide margin.

Sounds good, right? Everyone should be normal.

HOWEVER, with a closer examination of the data, it turned out that of this huge number of hits, very few of them turned into dates, and even fewer turned into relationships. Instead, the people who took a picture of themselves doing something they enjoyed or with something they liked (like someone taking a picture with their cat or going sailing or with a movie poster in the background) got fewer hits, but the hits they did get were far more likely to turn into a date/full relationship because they were self-selecting for people who shared their interests and it was easier to start up a conversation and get to know the other person.

This is why I think it's important to not hide the things you like. Because if you're looking for a long term relationship, if you try to be something you're not, you have the options of living a lie or risk the other person finding out and ending things. If you're upfront about what you like, you select for people you'd be more comfortable with in the first place. And really, those are the people you're more likely to have fun with. Even if they might be less physically attractive or whatever.
 
Okay, for the "being yourself" thing.

Recently, there was a study on OKCupid looking at the people who got the most hits/dates off of the site. What they found was that people who used a profile picture that was fairly normal (they didn't look gross, weren't supermodel gorgeous either... just kinda normal in a picture pose) got the most hits by a wide margin.

Sounds good, right? Everyone should be normal.

HOWEVER, with a closer examination of the data, it turned out that of this huge number of hits, very few of them turned into dates, and even fewer turned into relationships. Instead, the people who took a picture of themselves doing something they enjoyed or with something they liked (like someone taking a picture with their cat or going sailing or with a movie poster in the background) got fewer hits, but the hits they did get were far more likely to turn into a date/full relationship because they were self-selecting for people who shared their interests and it was easier to start up a conversation and get to know the other person.

This is why I think it's important to not hide the things you like. Because if you're looking for a long term relationship, if you try to be something you're not, you have the options of living a lie or risk the other person finding out and ending things. If you're upfront about what you like, you select for people you'd be more comfortable with in the first place. And really, those are the people you're more likely to have fun with. Even if they might be less physically attractive or whatever.
thanks for writing this, it's precisely what i, and i assume many others, mean with the idea of being yourself.
 
The guy sounds like a salty, selfish, kind of guy. He needs to be more around women and not focus on just one girl to ruin his life.
 
HOWEVER, with a closer examination of the data, it turned out that of this huge number of hits, very few of them turned into dates, and even fewer turned into relationships. Instead, the people who took a picture of themselves doing something they enjoyed or with something they liked (like someone taking a picture with their cat or going sailing or with a movie poster in the background) got fewer hits, but the hits they did get were far more likely to turn into a date/full relationship because they were self-selecting for people who shared their interests and it was easier to start up a conversation and get to know the other person.

I'm gonna use that picture of me fapping.
 
Stuff like this always seems so counter productive. This letter achieves an exact opposite of its intended purpose.

Want to show a girl that rejected you that you don't care and your life is better with out her ? Go on and live your "better"life and never think about her again.

Writing something like this just shows that you still care about these women and you really haven't come out ahead at all.
 
Threads like these just serve to confuse me and make me even more hesitant to try dating at some point. My first love was a girl I met the first day of high school ( not on that day though lol) and our relationship including the eventual marriage lasted just over 10 years. Being in a lesbian relationship was a bigger hardship due to other's reactions than the awkward teenage dating phase was.

I haven't tried dating since the divorce and I have no idea what the hell proper dating etiquette is these days. I don't know what people expect of each other and what behaviors or phrases have secret messages attached. Added to that is the fact that while I have an interest in men as well as women I have even less of an idea of how to interact with them in that sort of setting.

Why the hell is everything so complicated? How am I supposed to tell genuinely good people from "nice guys/girls"? How do you not give "confusing signals' and end up being the source of people's ire for unintentionally misleading them?

1) Communication is the key to not giving mixed signals. This is why the entire "do you deserve a response" thread makes me cringe. While I completely understand the reasons for not doing so (fear of terrible blowback), I personally believe miscommunication due to lack of communication is what usually ends up making things terrible more often than anything else.

2) I think the difference between an internet-meme nice guy and a genuinely nice guy is (to me) intent & expectations.

I'll use myself as an example. I have a lot of female friends (I am a heterosexual male, though I am pretty sure many of them think I'm gay, but, w/e, just because I know what clothes look good...sigh...anyway). I would happily have dated most of them (what I look for in people I date is the same for what I look for in friends, ergo, lots of overlap). Heck, I think I did go on dates with a few. I watched several of them go through terrible fits (and got to do the entire "I told you so" bit, which is always fun) for men and keep complaining to me about how they can't find a nice guy even though the truth of the matter was that they were supremely insecure (news flash, most men and women are supremely insecure), and were mistaking assholeness for confidence. Or they just wanted good looking guys and didn't want to be obviously superficial. (Newsflash: most people want hot people. I don't see the point in trying to hide it.) Whatever. They're my friends. I give all my friends (guys and gals) shit for bad decisions, and I fully expect them to give me it in return when I step into it nice and thick.

Every terrible part of the entire meme. But the difference was that even though I would have loved to date them, and I think in many cases, they would have done way better with me in the long run, my friendship and companionship with them was never predicated on the expectation of us getting together then or some time in the future.

You can go for the long play - trying to be a friend and hoping that they change their mind. Hell, I've seen it work plenty of times. But, the key point to this is that, if it doesn't work, you don't get to blame them. You took a risk, and it didn't pay off. It's on you. They either didn't know you were interested in them that way, or they thought that you were fine being friends. Even in the scenario where they may have taken advantage of the unrequited crush (both men and women do this way more than they'd like to admit, as best as I can tell, but it's still a rare thing overall); you know that you're taking a risk going for the long play. If you want to date them, and they say no, then you cannot get mad at them for not changing their mind later on.

As long as people are upfront about their expectations and communicate them in an honest and sincere fashion, I think you can be a genuinely nice person. If you are spending time with someone because you want to date them, and it's not getting anywhere, just tell them that "hey, look, I really like you and I'm wondering if you'd want to grab coffee sometime" or something to that effect. If they say no, and you're really interested in just dating them and would find it hard to be friends without potential resentment - just say so. If you can be friends with them because they have common interests / are awesome peoples; then transition to friendship. You can hope that things change, but you can't expect them to change, and you should not hold out hope too terribly long.

Most people play the game because they feel like they have to, not because they want to. So just being upfront and honest has always worked out for me in the long run.

Other folks: Thoughts?
 
And I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Adding to your list of interests doesn't change who you are because people are more than just lists of interests. I am truly sorry that you believe they are.
Yup, your core personality has nothing to do with what hobbies you happen choose.
 
Please, really, stop attempting to insult me. I don't understand what I've personally done to piss you off, but it seems like recently you've been coming into threads with the express purpose of trying to pick a fight with me.

I have no idea who you are. I hardly ever even post.
 
1. What is your 'core' personality?
2. How would it not be affected by lets say... taking up running?
3. Why wouldn't you want to change your core personality?

Because running a mile or two a day doesn't change you. Having a hobby doesn't not mean your personality is attractive. A self entitled ass is a self entitled ass even if they run a marathon. Some people can't change. Some people don't want to change. Some people are In pure denial of who they are and throw up all these things they think other people will like just because they are afraid of what people would really think about them. Having interest can not hide who you really are. So being yourself is clearly the best way.

If you're an asshole, then you're an asshole. Take some criticism when someone tells you you're an asshole and change that or own it, don't add "Rock Climbing" as your change.
 
Yup, your core personality has nothing to do with what hobbies you happen choose.

Your hobbies are a reflection of your personality, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you are solely defined by them. You have people of all sorts of different beliefs and perspectives in this one video game enthusiast board, for example.
 
Because running a mile or two a day doesn't change you. Having a hobby doesn't not mean your personality is attractive. A self entitled ass is a self entitled ass even if they run a marathon. Some people can't change. Some people don't want to change. Some people are In pure denial of who they are and throw up all these things they think other people will like just because they are afraid of what people would really think about them. Having interest can not hide who you really are. So being yourself is clearly the best way.

If you're an asshole, then you're an asshole. Take some criticism when someone tells you you're an asshole and change that or own it, don't add "Rock Climbing" as your change.

Preach, sis.
 
To be fair, I've had several girls that were'nt interested in me in high school because I was a nice guy come back and try to date me.

But by then all I did was laugh, and laugh, and laugh.

I've had a few ex's (that didn't end up being long relationships, I was a nerd in greaser/prep body back in HS, and they wanted a greaser in a greaser body from what I saw lol), say that women want nice guys as they get older. Of course these ex's usually have multiple kids now, so naaahhh thats ok. lol
 
Because running a mile or two a day doesn't change you. Having a hobby doesn't not mean your personality is attractive.

Running a mile or two every day would absolutely change you. So much of your brain and body would change from something like that. Having a hobby can absolutely make your more attractive.

A self entitled ass is a self entitled ass even if they run a marathon. Some people can't change. Some people don't want to change. Some people are In pure denial of who they are and throw up all these things they think other people will like just because they are afraid of what people would really think about them. Having interest can not hide who you really are. So being yourself is clearly the best way.

I'm not sure how any of this is either true or pertinent to the discussion at hand. First of all, interests aren't the only thing that change you, but even if they were, they absolutely could change your personality. If you decide to take a class at the local community college every few months, so much of who you are would change. If you decide to... I don't know, have a bonsai tree as a hobby, that would change a lot of who you are. And if you run, that can change a lot of who you are as well, and to re-iterate, not just physically.

If your an asshole, then your an asshole. Take some criticism when someone tells you you're an asshole and change that or own it, don't add "Rock Climbing" as your change.

I don't think a single person here suggested that to stop being an asshole, they should take up a specific hobby. People (specifically me) suggested that

1. The hobbies you take up can absolutely change you in many different meaningful ways.

2. That 'being yourself' isn't a particularly valuable suggestion, especially if there are personality traits of yours (or ones that you are lacking) that you could or should address if you want certain things in your life - like learning to be a more socially aware person if you want more friends, or being less crass with your humour if you don't like offending people.

3. Basically, changing yourself not only is a good thing, it's already always happening.
 
Really disappointed by the content of this message. I think there really is an issue where many younger women claim to want nice guys, mess about with idiots, and then only ring you up when they're older and more desperate. That absolutely does happen and it's infuriating. But the author of this piece is such an insecure, bitter tool that any point he's trying to make is lost.

Point is, ladies, nice guys need companionship and sex too. If you're not ready for commitment yet and are going to give someone a jump, give a nice guy a jump. Give the good guys some positive reinforcement instead of encouraging the idiot guys of the world.
 
Really disappointed by the content of this message. I think there really is an issue where many younger women claim to want nice guys, mess about with idiots, and then only ring you up when they're older and more desperate. That absolutely does happen and it's infuriating. But the author of this piece is such an insecure, bitter tool that any point he's trying to make is lost.

Point is, ladies, nice guys need companionship and sex too. If you're not ready for commitment yet and are going to give someone a jump, give a nice guy a jump. Give the good guys some positive reinforcement instead of encouraging the idiot guys of the world.
Have to bring this back again: if someone calls himself a nice guy, he's likely not one. The problem is that the women who would potentially date them see it, but the man doesn't. Some women don't "mess about with idiots" as much as they look for men who are independent and don't define themselves by the woman, which I've seen happen over and over. Nice guys are the ones saying "please respond." Who wants that?
 
1. What is your 'core' personality?
2. How would it not be affected by lets say... taking up running?
3. Why wouldn't you want to change your core personality?

1. These (and others) are core traits.

Selfish / Generous
Enthusiastic / Indifferent
Empathy / Apathy
Self-Confident / Insecure
Outgoing / Shy


2. Taking up running does not affect these traits.

3. Sure, you may wish to change them. Taking up hobbies won't alter them though, most core traits come down to how you interact with others.
 
Running a mile or two every day would absolutely change you. So much of your brain and body would change from something like that. Having a hobby can absolutely make your more attractive.



I'm not sure how any of this is either true or pertinent to the discussion at hand. First of all, interests aren't the only thing that change you, but even if they were, they absolutely could change your personality. If you decide to take a class at the local community college every few months, so much of who you are would change. If you decide to... I don't know, have a bonsai tree as a hobby, that would change a lot of who you are. And if you run, that can change a lot of who you are as well, and to re-iterate, not just physically.



I don't think a single person here suggested that to stop being an asshole, they should take up a specific hobby. People (specifically me) suggested that

1. The hobbies you take up can absolutely change you in many different meaningful ways.

2. That 'being yourself' isn't a particularly valuable suggestion, especially if there are personality traits of yours (or ones that you are lacking) that you could or should address if you want certain things in your life - like learning to be a more socially aware person if you want more friends, or being less crass with your humour if you don't like offending people.

3. Basically, changing yourself not only is a good thing, it's already always happening.

I think there's a difference between "Will change you" and "could change you."

Not every asshole is going to become less of an asshole because they start jogging, or take up any other hobby.
 
Really disappointed by the content of this message. I think there really is an issue where many younger women claim to want nice guys, mess about with idiots, and then only ring you up when they're older and more desperate. That absolutely does happen and it's infuriating. But the author of this piece is such an insecure, bitter tool that any point he's trying to make is lost.

Point is, ladies, nice guys need companionship and sex too. If you're not ready for commitment yet and are going to give someone a jump, give a nice guy a jump. Give the good guys some positive reinforcement instead of encouraging the idiot guys of the world.

The bloke in this OP is not a "Nice guy", no one should take a chance on him, he is a shit. Women don't HAVE to chose anyone due to some quota system, and they are free to ignore you or contest for your affections. Nice guys don't finish last, lads who categorize themselves as nice guys finish last.
 
I cringed. Just keep it to yourself and take pride in the fact that your life is better now. No need to put it out there for everyone to see and look bitter.
 
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