Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 7: How Can My Smash Brother Be This Cut

Church RvB said:
Call me a noob but I don't want wavedashing in.
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IMO, wavedashing doesn't make someone good or bad. It just helps with spacing and set ups, if you can't combo or know your character it won't matter that you can wavedash with Fox, you'll get your ass kicked. If Smash 4 has good enough speed, I'm sure the competitive scene will embrace it enough for it to show up at tournaments moreso than Brawl

Edit: For clarification, WD by itself doesn't make you good, but it knowing it alongside everything else helps a lot
 
I like how it's not "bring back air dodges like Melee", it's "bring back wave dashing", something that was just a side effect of the air dodge physics. They didn't get rid of wave dashing, they changed their idea on how air dodges should work.
 
Deckard Cain said:
First of all intentional or not it's what adds depth and complexity to the game and should stay.
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This is the exact opposite of true. Wavedashing was an equalizer that made the characters more evenly balanced, but it also introduced a technical barrier, which is the exact opposite of the point of Smash. The entire reason all movements are single button presses with a directional input is to remove technical barriers so that skill (and character balance) are the primary determining factors. A high level technical skill that always gives an advantage over someone who can't use it or doesn't know about it completely breaks the spirit of the game.

This is not depth, not is it complexity, it is simply a requirement for high level play. Once you learn it, you still have to depend on the depth and complexity already built into the game to win.
 
Since the dream of Ridley and Dark Samus is dead, I have decided to support the next Metroid newcomer available, SA-X!

SA-X_True_Form.png


A bit big, but that wouldn't be a problem I'm sure.
 
justchris said:
This is the exact opposite of true. Wavedashing was an equalizer that made the characters more evenly balanced, but it also introduced a technical barrier, which is the exact opposite of the point of Smash. The entire reason all movements are single button presses with a directional input is to remove technical barriers so that skill (and character balance) are the primary determining factors. A high level technical skill that always gives an advantage over someone who can't use it or doesn't know about it completely breaks the spirit of the game.

This is not depth, not is it complexity, it is simply a requirement for high level play. Once you learn it, you still have to depend on the depth and complexity already built into the game to win.
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Thats like saying plink dashing in marvel isn't depth.
 
My opinion on pretty much all games is that they should be made around basic mechanics, and it's up to a skilled player to use those mechanics as best they can.

A skilled player in Smash ideally should be able to pull off combos with the basic abilities. The direction players are launched, the distance etc should be all finely tuned to allow for it, well, for characters primarily focused on close range combat at least.

Wavedashing goes against this. It's an advanced technique created as a biproduct of another ability. If it is 'needed' to allow a skilled player to pull off high level gameplay then that's a problem with the core gameplay itself and that core gameplay should be tweaked so that something like wavedashing isn't necessary.

This post is probably incoherent rambling anyway so whatevs.

Edit: As an example of what I mean have a look at NSMBU speed runs. The players don't do anything special, they just use the basic mechanics, running and jumping, but the level design and enemy placement is perfectly tuned for those skills to allow the player to flow through the level extremely quickly.
 
As someone who plays Smash fairly competitively, Wavedashing is really not all that great at all. It's effectively just an arbitrary thing to learn if you want to play certain characters really well because it's a really good spacing tool - I would argue it's too good of a spacing tool for what it is. I'm sad that Smash 4 is using Brawl's air dodge not because of Wavedashing but because I feel that the directional air dodge adds a level of risk/reward that Brawl's doesn't, and I think the air game benefits from it.

L-Cancelling should totally be back, though. Just stick a special How To Play (Advanced) movie in there with things like L-Cancelling and everything will be awesome and great.
 
Benzychenz said:
My opinion on pretty much all games is that they should be made around basic mechanics, and it's up to a skilled player to use those mechanics as best they can.

A skilled player in Smash ideally should be able to pull off combos with the basic abilities. The direction players are launched, the distance etc should be all finely tuned to allow for it, well, for characters primarily focused on close range combat at least.

Wavedashing goes against this. It's an advanced technique created as a biproduct of another ability. If it is 'needed' to allow a skilled player to pull off high level gameplay then that's a problem with the core gameplay itself and that core gameplay should be tweaked so that something like wavedashing isn't necessary.

This post is probably incoherent rambling anyway so whatevs.

Edit: As an example of what I mean have a look at NSMBU speed runs. The players don't do anything special, they just use the basic mechanics, running and jumping, but the level design and enemy placement is perfectly tuned for those skills to allow the player to flow through the level extremely quickly.
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I've got good news for you, it's not!
 
I wonder Sakura is going to try to give a shot to revive one of his idea for Melee where Ditto would transformed into playable character.

Ditto is a Pokémon that was removed from Super Smash Bros. Melee just prior to its release. Its supposed purpose was to create an AI copy of the user's character, which would aid them in battle. However, processing problems forced its removal.
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I wonder if that's what Sakurai is going to plan to do with Zozark.
 
I just want another high speed mobility option that gives me the options WDs do. Wavedashing isn't just propelling forward in a mad fit of gottagofast, it's also used for baiting and spacing in ways no other game can do them.

Also, you don't know random fun until you play Project M Pit and wave land on every platform on the stage out of a Wings of Icarus glide with people chasing you and unable to catch you.
 
As I've said before, I think L-Cancelling should be automatic since there is no depth added by doing a timed button press that you will always want to do. There is no scenario where you wouldn't use it, so what's the point other than some pointless repetitiveness?

Now air dodges are going to be like Brawl's and not Melee's directional air dodge. So that makes wavedashing dead. Of course this can change, but I find that unlikely to happen. Calling wavedashing important is overstating its use, but it is useful in Melee/PM. You can still do good without wavedashing.

Now if it is just Brawl's air dodges carried over, that would be terrible. Infinite air dodges is dumb. Now a good compromise would just allow only 1 air dodge (resets when you're hit) and not making you go to a helpless state. I think that would be better than air dodging every where like in Brawl.
SoaringDive said:
I like how it's not "bring back air dodges like Melee", it's "bring back wave dashing", something that was just a side effect of the air dodge physics. They didn't get rid of wave dashing, they changed their idea on how air dodges should work.
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I find that funny as well lol.
Regulus Tera said:
Anything that lowers barriers of entry is a good thing.
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If only most competitive Pokemon fans thought this way...
 
DaBoss said:
If only most competitive Pokemon fans thought this way...
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I'm pretty sure competitive players would like the ability to generate any legal Pokemon immediately so they don't have to waste time on it, it's the ones with that collector mentality that are against it.
 
WD is cool but its not so over powered or hard to do that anyone should get to upset about it being in or out. If someone domniates you simply by WD you aren't very good at smash bros
 
justchris said:
This is the exact opposite of true. Wavedashing was an equalizer that made the characters more evenly balanced, but it also introduced a technical barrier, which is the exact opposite of the point of Smash. The entire reason all movements are single button presses with a directional input is to remove technical barriers so that skill (and character balance) are the primary determining factors. A high level technical skill that always gives an advantage over someone who can't use it or doesn't know about it completely breaks the spirit of the game.

This is not depth, not is it complexity, it is simply a requirement for high level play. Once you learn it, you still have to depend on the depth and complexity already built into the game to win.
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You should play Divekick instead of Smash. Smash requires you to know how to pull of special moves and stuff.
 
Regulus Tera said:
Anything that lowers barriers of entry is a good thing.
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absolutely no from a competitive standpoint.

Thats like saying autocombos should be in the game because normal combos are a barrier of entry. So marvel 3 should be played in simple mode, and persona 4 arena should be just 2 buttons since 1 gives you an auto combo, the other 2 dp.

Just because it works in smash, or thats how smash is designed doesn't mean that other genre or games should follow.

SF would be broke as fuck if it was just one press = moves. Walk up sonic boom? walk up headbutt? the list goes on. Many moves are balanced based on their execution.

In Marvel3, your example would be getting rid of plink/wash dashing since those are barriers to entry, which would make the game worse, not better.

I take smash for what it is. A casual game with a competitive scene. I know plenty of you guys don't want the competitive people to "ruin" your game by making it harder to play. Fine I respect that, but don't add your beliefs of what is good and what is not good to other competitive games.
 
Ragingnight said:
absolutely no from a competitive standpoint.

Thats like saying autocombos should be in the game because normal combos are a barrier of entry. So marvel 3 should be played in simple mode, and persona 4 arena should be just 2 buttons since 1 gives you an auto combo, the other 2 dp.

Just because it works in smash, or thats how smash is designed doesn't mean that other genre or games should follow.

SF would be broke as fuck if it was just one press = moves. Walk up sonic boom? walk up headbutt? the list goes on.

In Marvel3, your example would be getting rid of plink/wash dashing since those are barriers to entry, which would make the game worse, not better.

I take smash for what it is. A casual game with a competitive scene. I know plenty of you guys don't want the competitive people to "ruin" your game by making it harder to play. Fine I respect that, but don't add your beliefs of what is good and what is not good to other competitive games.
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This basically boils down to whether you believe skill is shown through technical execution (ie pressing the correct button presses) or by how well you can adapt to different scenarios on the fly. I'm a proponent of the latter.
 
Ragingnight said:
absolutely no from a competitive standpoint.

Thats like saying autocombos should be in the game because normal combos are a barrier of entry. So marvel 3 should be played in simple mode, and persona 4 arena should be just 2 buttons since 1 gives you an auto combo, the other 2 dp.

Just because it works in smash, or thats how smash is designed doesn't mean that other genre or games should follow.

SF would be broke as fuck if it was just one press = moves. Walk up sonic boom? walk up headbutt? the list goes on. Many moves are balanced based on their execution.

In Marvel3, your example would be getting rid of plink/wash dashing since those are barriers to entry, which would make the game worse, not better.

I take smash for what it is. A casual game with a competitive scene. I know plenty of you guys don't want the competitive people to "ruin" your game by making it harder to play. Fine I respect that, but don't add your beliefs of what is good and what is not good to other competitive games.
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You're coming into a Smash thread where people are talking about Smash and bitching that the things people are saying about Smash might not apply to all games ever.
 
Regulus Tera said:
This basically boils down to whether you believe skill is shown through technical execution (ie pressing the correct button presses) or by how well you can adapt to different scenarios on the fly. I'm a proponent of the latter.
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Why not both? Also that doesn't dispute what I said. Many moves are balanced around by their execution.

Guile would be high-tier/top-tier if he could walk up and press one button sonic booms. He is balanced around the fact that he has to hold back.

Execution is another talent or skill that shows off a good player. I don't see why you have to dumb it down because ABC players can't do it.

Wreck-It Ralph said:
You're coming into a Smash thread where people are talking about Smash and bitching that the things people are saying about Smash might not apply to all games ever.
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Actually, I was "bitching"(lol passive aggressive) about people views of competitive games. I want smash to be a high level competitive game and not like brawl. Why can't I say I want that in a smash thread?

edit
In essense, what is wrong with having wave dashing in smash? I don't see why it is bad. Casuals can still casual it up with their friends, and competitive players can take the game to its limits. I'm not going to bitch if its not in the new smash, but I don't see why the discussion is "its an exploit, shouldn't be in the game".
 
Ragingnight said:
absolutely no from a competitive standpoint.

Thats like saying autocombos should be in the game because normal combos are a barrier of entry. So marvel 3 should be played in simple mode, and persona 4 arena should be just 2 buttons since 1 gives you an auto combo, the other 2 dp.

Just because it works in smash, or thats how smash is designed doesn't mean that other genre or games should follow.

SF would be broke as fuck if it was just one press = moves. Walk up sonic boom? walk up headbutt? the list goes on. Many moves are balanced based on their execution.

In Marvel3, your example would be getting rid of plink/wash dashing since those are barriers to entry, which would make the game worse, not better.

I take smash for what it is. A casual game with a competitive scene. I know plenty of you guys don't want the competitive people to "ruin" your game by making it harder to play. Fine I respect that, but don't add your beliefs of what is good and what is not good to other competitive games.
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I think there is something to be said for make a game that is easy to pick up and play but difficult to master or become proficient at. Developers should attempt to lower the level of entry this allows more people to play the game and have fun without having to dedicate tons of hours to being great at it. At the same time the game should have deep mechanics that people who care can really dig into them and become proficient and competitive in a tournament scene.

I'm going to use soul calibur 2 as an example of a game that does this perfectly. The basic controls are simple enough that anyone can button mash and do some cool looking stuff and have fun. If said person jumps into the games single player it starts off with a basic tutorial establishing the main mechanics of the game. With this you can beat almost all of the single player campaign and do pretty well in your average match. If you want to take your game to the next level there are in depth turorials in the game that teach you advanced mechanics and combos to elevate your game.

Soul Calibur 2 may not be the deepest or most technical or well balanced fighting game, but it does have the right balance of acceptance that makes it accessable to anyone who wants to play while still providing a deeper experience for those who want it. You don't have to do anything as crazy as say sub space embissary but some kind of single player that teaches as you play should be in most fighting games along with advanced tutorials to help people get better if they want a deeper experience.
 
BassForever said:
I think there is something to be said for make a game that is easy to pick up and play but difficult to master or become proficient at. Developers should attempt to lower the level of entry this allows more people to play the game and have fun without having to dedicate tons of hours to being great at it. At the same time the game should have deep mechanics that people who care can really dig into them and become proficient and competitive in a tournament scene.

I'm going to use soul calibur 2 as an example of a game that does this perfectly. The basic controls are simple enough that anyone can button mash and do some cool looking stuff and have fun. If said person jumps into the games single player it starts off with a basic tutorial establishing the main mechanics of the game. With this you can beat almost all of the single player campaign and do pretty well in your average match. If you want to take your game to the next level there are in depth turorials in the game that teach you advanced mechanics and combos to elevate your game.

Soul Calibur 2 may not be the deepest or most technical or well balanced fighting game, but it does have the right balance of acceptance that makes it accessable to anyone who wants to play while still providing a deeper experience for those who want it. You don't have to do anything as crazy as say sub space embissary but some kind of single player that teaches as you play should be in most fighting games along with advanced tutorials to help people get better if they want a deeper experience.
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I have an example that is more familiar to this thread in terms of easy to get into but with depth:
Melee (and 64 before FUNKNOWN comes in :P)
 
BassForever said:
I think there is something to be said for make a game that is easy to pick up and play but difficult to master or become proficient at. Developers should attempt to lower the level of entry this allows more people to play the game and have fun without having to dedicate tons of hours to being great at it. At the same time the game should have deep mechanics that people who care can really dig into them and become proficient and competitive in a tournament scene.

I'm going to use soul calibur 2 as an example of a game that does this perfectly. The basic controls are simple enough that anyone can button mash and do some cool looking stuff and have fun. If said person jumps into the games single player it starts off with a basic tutorial establishing the main mechanics of the game. With this you can beat almost all of the single player campaign and do pretty well in your average match. If you want to take your game to the next level there are in depth turorials in the game that teach you advanced mechanics and combos to elevate your game.

Soul Calibur 2 may not be the deepest or most technical or well balanced fighting game, but it does have the right balance of acceptance that makes it accessable to anyone who wants to play while still providing a deeper experience for those who want it. You don't have to do anything as crazy as say sub space embissary but some kind of single player that teaches as you play should be in most fighting games along with advanced tutorials to help people get better if they want a deeper experience.
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I 100% accept this. But you do understand that this is an argument why having wave dashing isn't bad in the game right?

Casual players can still casual it up and competitive players can take advantage of it. Its exactly the same way with SC2. In sc2 there was 2G, which casuals never use but competitive players used all the time and it made a difference at the highest level of play.
 
Yo what if instead of Poke Floats, we got Nintendo Floats instead.

You play on top of 3D models of the playable characters, just like Poke Floats.

Imagine playing on top of models of Zelda, Link, ZSS, Yoshi, Bowser, Rosalina, etc.

0 Effort, efficient reusing of models. You finally get to play ON TOP of your favorite Nintendo characters.
 
shunxsato said:
Yo what if instead of Poke Floats, we got Nintendo Floats instead.

You play on top of 3D models of the playable characters, just like Poke Floats.

Imagine playing on top of models of Zelda, Link, ZSS, Yoshi, Bowser, Rosalina, etc.

0 Effort, efficient reusing of models. You finally get to play ON TOP of your favorite Nintendo characters.
Click to expand...

Imagine playing on top of Ridley, it's like Palutena's Temple.
 
theprodigy said:
I have an example that is more familiar to this thread in terms of easy to get into but with depth:
Melee (and 64 before FUNKNOWN comes in :P)
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Melee really didn't though, outside of its unplayable opening it really didn't have any mode to teach the player the basic mechanics. Yes it has tons of single player content but none of it teaches you how to play the game and you don't approach many fights in any of melee's sp modes like you would your average 1 on 1 fight. Nothing in melee teaches you how to meteor smash or what a tether recovery is or who can use them as examples.

Ragingnight said:
I 100% accept this. But you do understand that this is an argument why having wave dashing isn't bad in the game right?

Casual players can still casual it up and competitive players can take advantage of it. Its exactly the same way with SC2. In sc2 there was 2G, which casuals never use but competitive players used all the time and it made a difference.
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I get that, and that ties into my original post about WD being something I feel indifferent towards. I think l-canceling would be a far better point of discussion as that had far more impact on the competitive scene then wave dashing ever did.

Arguing about WD is especially silly becuase the mechanics behind air dodges changed in brawl and appear to be the same in smash 4. Had brawl kept Melee's 1 directional air dash into a prone state but prevented players from wave dashing by delaying a player who air dashed into the ground then an argument about "sakurai removing mechanics to lower the level of entry" makes sense to me. Preventing dash dancing by adding in random tripping is a far better example of that :P
 
Benzychenz said:
Edit: As an example of what I mean have a look at NSMBU speed runs. The players don't do anything special, they just use the basic mechanics, running and jumping, but the level design and enemy placement is perfectly tuned for those skills to allow the player to flow through the level extremely quickly.
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So boring :p

Seriously, I would never watch a single speedrun if they didn't include major sequence breaks or other exploits. Emergent gameplay is the most interesting thing in video games to me. I'm cool with wavedashing being exclusive to Melee, but don't knock it or any ATs that appear in Smash 4.
 
Ragingnight said:
Guile would be high-tier/top-tier if he could walk up and press one button sonic booms. He is balanced around the fact that he has to hold back.
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You're right, you can't just take Street Fighter, a game that was built and balanced around its current control scheme, and slap Smash's simpler control scheme on it. But there's no reason a traditional fighter couldn't work perfectly fine with Smash style inputs if it were designed from the ground up around Smash style inputs.

In essense, what is wrong with having wave dashing in smash? I don't see why it is bad. Casuals can still casual it up with their friends, and competitive players can take the game to its limits. I'm not going to bitch if its not in the new smash, but I don't see why the discussion is "its an exploit, shouldn't be in the game".
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For me, it's two reasons:

1) It looks stupid. A character's just standing there, and then they're suddenly sliding across the stage. It looks absolutely ridiculous.

2) I like to play competitively, but I just frankly can't move my fingers fast enough to utilize wavedashing. Maybe this is a selfish reason, but I don't really care. Admittedly, I'd probably get my ass kicked anyway with or without wavedashing because I'm not very good, but I'd rather get my ass kicked knowing that I'm utilizing the same toolset as the other person instead of knowing that they have a tool that they can use and I can't.
 
Ragingnight said:
absolutely no from a competitive standpoint.

Thats like saying autocombos should be in the game because normal combos are a barrier of entry. So marvel 3 should be played in simple mode, and persona 4 arena should be just 2 buttons since 1 gives you an auto combo, the other 2 dp.

Just because it works in smash, or thats how smash is designed doesn't mean that other genre or games should follow.

SF would be broke as fuck if it was just one press = moves. Walk up sonic boom? walk up headbutt? the list goes on. Many moves are balanced based on their execution.

In Marvel3, your example would be getting rid of plink/wash dashing since those are barriers to entry, which would make the game worse, not better.

I take smash for what it is. A casual game with a competitive scene. I know plenty of you guys don't want the competitive people to "ruin" your game by making it harder to play. Fine I respect that, but don't add your beliefs of what is good and what is not good to other competitive games.
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But in this specific situation, you ALWAYS want to L-cancel, and there's no reason not to

With combos, you have options at what you want to do, and you wont always want to pull off the same combo
 
Hyperactivity said:
But in this specific situation, you ALWAYS want to L-cancel, and there's no reason not too

With combos, you have options at what you want to do, and you wont always want to pull off the same combo
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I agree with this. If its something where one out of two option is always the worst option then the better option should be the standard.

Wreck-It Ralph said:
You're right, you can't just take Street Fighter, a game that was built and balanced around its current control scheme, and slap Smash's simpler control scheme on it. But there's no reason a traditional fighter couldn't work perfectly fine with Smash style inputs if it were designed from the ground up around Smash style inputs.



For me, it's two reasons:

1) It looks stupid. A character's just standing there, and then they're suddenly sliding across the stage. It looks absolutely ridiculous.

2) I like to play competitively, but I just frankly can't move my fingers fast enough to utilize wavedashing. Maybe this is a selfish reason, but I don't really care. Admittedly, I'd probably get my ass kicked anyway with or without wavedashing because I'm not very good, but I'd rather get my ass kicked knowing that I'm utilizing the same toolset as the other person instead of knowing that they have a tool that they can use and I can't.
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Yes I agree, you can't add smash gameplay design to SF style games, but guess what. That is all traditional competitive 2d fighter. Any character that has a backward motion or down input would be instantly better if a move can be done with one button. 2 button dp in Persona were stupid and the game was designed around it (mostly due to balance issue but even then, the dp would have to be super situational/balance, which is not what a dp/reversal).

Also to your wave dash comments

1) Same thing in every fighting game. Gief st. HK kara command grab looks stupid. He just grabs you from nowhere. Same with marvel's plink/wave dashing. Looks have nothing to do with competitive gameplay. Crossup look stupid in any fighting game, and so does metaknight just ledge hogging all day.

2) That means you can't play any competitive game that requires execution. As you said that is selfish. Thats like me complaining in starcraft 2 that I don't have the ability to micro and lost because of it. ' You could use this example in other games. For lets say marvel, you have the first hit but because you can't do the right combos you can't kill. The person lives and hits you and kills you because they can do the combo. Then you complain that custom combos shouldn't be in the game because you don't have the same tool set as others.

If wavedashing isn't in the game then whatever. But there is no legitimate reason for casual players to not wish wave dashing to be in the game to spite competitive players.
 
Ragingnight said:
Yes I agree, you can't add smash gameplay design to SF style games, but guess what. That is all traditional competitive 2d fighter. Any character that has a backward motion or down input would be instantly better if a move can be done with one button. 2 button dp in Persona were stupid and the game was designed around it (mostly due to balance issue but even then, the dp would have to be super situational/balance, which is not what a dp/reversal).
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So, okay, you clearly didn't understand what I typed, so let me try again.

I said that you couldn't add Smash controls to Street Fighter. Not a SF style game in general. You can't just take a game with charge moves and let the player do them instantly. You're right, that would be broken.

Then I went on to say that a traditional SF style game would work perfectly fine if the game were designed around Smash style controls. That is, every move is done with a direction and a button. As in, the game wouldn't be designed with characters with charge moves and then have Smash controls slapped on. There wouldn't be charge moves in the first place.

I don't know what all of that Persona stuff is about, as I've never played that game.

2) That means you can't play any competitive game that requires execution. As you said that is selfish. Thats like me complaining in starcraft 2 that I don't have the ability to micro and lost because of it. ' You could use this example in other games. For lets say marvel, you have the first hit but because you can't do the right combos you can't kill. The person lives and hits you and kills you because they can do the combo. Then you complain that custom combos shouldn't be in the game because you don't have the same tool set as others.
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I don't play Marvel because it was designed around fast, technical inputs. I quickly realized it was not a game for me.

I can play games like Street Fighter okay because I can use characters like E. Honda, who don't require highly technical inputs, but I don't complain about them being more technical because I know what I'm getting into when I play them.

I like Smash because it's designed around simpler inputs. Something like wavedashing is the exact opposite of the point of the game.
 
Nintendoga said:
Time to get hyped for the best character Metaknight.
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Really hope so but I doubt it. I know we got a blow out with the direct not even a month ago but since I am not a big Pokemon fan anymore, Greninja didn't do it for me and I am jonesing for another character reveal. Plus, I wanna see how hard MK gets pegged with the Nerf bat.
 
OrangeGrayBlue said:
Frankly, I think Wonderful 101 likely hit the scene too late to be included in the game outside of maybe trophies/stickers which take less effort to implement.
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While the game only came out last year, it was in development for years prior to that, and was originally scheduled as a 2012 game. There is no reason Sakurai couldn't have known about the game and as Nintendo's newest IP included the protagonist.

Roy was included in Melee before his game was even out.

Greninja is also confirmed playable and his game came out a month after Wonderful 101.
 
OrangeGrayBlue said:
Frankly, I think Wonderful 101 likely hit the scene too late to be included in the game outside of maybe trophies/stickers which take less effort to implement.
Click to expand...

As much as i like Wonderful 101 i agree. And to be honest it has more potential than most to be a really awesome assist trophy.
 
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