Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 7: How Can My Smash Brother Be This Cut

The CCPro is really weird with its diamond layout. It isn't like a square, it is more like a rhombus.

The Wii U Pro Controller and the 3DS doesn't have that problem.
AQrV9v4.jpg

Outside of the lack of a second set of triggers and a second analog stick (both of which combined might make throwing things awkward), how would the 3DS version control worse than the Wii U version would?
Stick > Circle Pad

Grips.
I wonder how playing Smash would be on a 360 / XBO controller. The 360 controller (don't have an XBO so I can't say) is my favorite controller ever, the only thing that competes is the GCN controller and that's just for Smash.
I hate it (360 controller) for Smash since the sticks and buttons are too stiff for something as fast-paced as Smash. The sticks are also slightly more raised which is a problem.

I've become accustomed to the layout, but it needs to be adjusted. I feel the XBO controller might be good though since the sticks feel nicer. Haven't had much time with the face buttons to say much about it.
 
...it occurs to me that it's going to be weird not having a Z button on the 3DS version. I'm so used to having a dedicated grab button...

Oh man that'll suck for people used to that. I'm so used to shield grabbing that I just instinctively use L+A. Plus I'm a lefty with sausage fingers so hitting the Z button was always a problem anyway.

Actually does this mean Wii u pro controller gets two dedicated grab buttons?
 
...it occurs to me that it's going to be weird not having a Z button on the 3DS version. I'm so used to having a dedicated grab button...
Circle pad pro gives you a couple extra shoulder buttons.

I'm mostly terrified of the circle pad itself. I've never really liked the thing.

Oh man that'll suck for people used to that. I'm so used to shield grabbing that I just instinctively use L+A. Plus I'm a lefty with sausage fingers so hitting the Z button was always a problem anyway.

Actually does this mean Wii u pro controller gets two dedicated grab buttons?

I only use Z for dash grabbing. Shield grab input from a dash always seemed clunky.
 
No, the controls definitely rotated, and I will prove it to you, in the mathematical sense of the word "prove":

Here, I've taken the three consoles Smash has appeared on to an official degree. I've labelled what the buttons do, as well as their relation to one another - red shows the relation between the attack and special buttons, green between the special and upper jump button, blue between the attack and lower jump button, orange between the two jump buttons, and gray line's basically just there to try and match what you're seeing with your ">" layout.

smashn64x8bve.png
smashgczdbqc.png
smashccpro4nxxc.png


Now, when I'm talking about how the buttons rotated, I'm focusing mainly on the green and red lines, because those are the ones I visualize. Notice how the layout is consistent for red and green for the first two, but rotated 90° counter-clockwise when the Classic Controller Pro enters the picture. That is what I'm complaining about when I say things have rotated.

Meanwhile, you're visualizing the red and gray, probably spurred on by how the A button on the Gamecube controller is more in-line with the leftmost and rightmost buttons (as evidenced by the resulting quadrilateral being flatter on the bottom for the Gamecube than it is for the N64 or CC Pro). The red-gray relation is deliberately set up as you stated for the Gamecube controller and CC Pro, although I had to guess what sort of relationship that'd take for the N64 controller. In either case, it has to produce an acute angle with the red line, that always makes a right-facing arrow shape (">").

Now, you're also asserting, in the quoted post, that the controls never rotated. Let's assume that is the case. Now, when the control layout started, that gray line more-or-less bisected the angle between the red and blue lines. If the controls did not rotate, it follows that it would still be bisecting this angle. However, setting up the relation between the red and gray lines precisely as you argued it should be set up to maintain continuity between the Gamecube and CC Pro control schemes, you will note that instead, it becomes congruent with the blue line (it's hard to see in the image, but I put it just above the blue line), and does not even remotely bisect the angle created by the red/blue lines. Therefore, by proof by contradiction, the controls have demonstrably rotated, Q.E.D..

Does this help illustrate where I'm coming from any better? I'm approaching this from the assumption that most controllers since the SNES are laid out in a quadrilateral formation, most typically a diamond with one button on the top and bottom and then two buttons in a middle row in between. This approach of mine extends even to the Gamecube's layout, even though it's stretched somewhat by the A button being more in-line with that aforementioned middle row (really, that resulting quadrilateral should probably be concave; I had to stretch it a bit to keep it convex like the other two). And when you approach it from that quadrilateral assumption, the controls rotated, as demonstrated. I believe people will be more likely to approach this from my approach than from the "these three buttons make a ">" shape" approach, since more controllers have that layout than do not.
I think your example on the GCN controller is disingenuous since you didn't go to the center of the A button to make it appear different from the pro controller. The relationship between A and B is similar to what it was on the GCN controller. What's different is the X and Y buttons were rotated counterclockwise to be across from A and B. The relationship X now has with A is the same as the relationship Y had with A on the GCN controller. The other jump button is no longer floating off to the right and is now across from the other attack button.

V7GHLMr.jpg
 
I think your example on the GCN controller is disingenuous since you didn't go to the center of the A button to make it appear different from the pro controller. The relationship between A and B is similar to what it was on the GCN controller. What's different is the X and Y buttons were rotated counterclockwise to be across from A and B. The relationship X now has with A is the same as the relationship Y had with A on the GCN controller. The other jump button is no longer floating off to the right and is now across from the other attack button.

V7GHLMr.jpg
No, I deliberately didn't go to the center of the A button so I could keep the diamond shape that I always saw the Gamecube controller as having, in spite of it being more concave than that. That was, in all honesty, an attempt to make it more like the CCPro than to make it different from it.

That said, the part about the gray line bisecting the red/blue angle is still true even if I raise the point that rests on the A button - it's just now bisecting a reflex angle instead of an obtuse one:

smashgc2sykdq.png


And yes, I understand your image depicts how, say, you see it, but what I'm trying to explain is how I see it, despite people continuing to tell me that I'm seeing things wrong.

Either way, the way they've done it, it puts my thumb at the rightmost edge of the console, and it just doesn't feel natural there. Using that button for the most important function of the game causes my thumb sprains if I play for not too long at all (going by repeated playing of Mario Kart DS or Mario Kart 7). My thumb gravitates to B/Y, and playing there doesn't cause me sprains. Nintendo of the '90s realized this, designing it so the most-used function was on B and most-used secondary function was on Y, so it boggles my mind that Nintendo of the mid-'00s to today instead insists on putting it on A and B respectively - it makes sense when looking purely at the letters on the controller, but it doesn't feel ergonomic at all. I think this factor trumps any L-shaped formation of buttons, in all honesty.
 
Since we are on topic of controllers,

How would people felt if touch screen would replace "second analog or stick?" So basically if you want quick strong attacks then you have to tap touch screen to perform those attacks.
 
Since we are on topic of controllers,

How would people felt if touch screen would replace "second analog or stick?" So basically if you want quick strong attacks then you have to tap touch screen to perform those attacks.

Nope.

And I'd say I'm the most open minded Smash player in SmashGAF. That just seems clunky.
 
Since we are on topic of controllers,

How would people felt if touch screen would replace "second analog or stick?" So basically if you want quick strong attacks then you have to tap touch screen to perform those attacks.

Feels a bit too gimmicky, similar to the "shake" Smash.

I mean, I suppose it's neat as an alternative, much like the spin buttons in Mario Tennis Open and Golf World Tour, but I don't see myself ever using it. I prefer having physical feedback.
 
In response to Shadow Hog

Haven't all the NSMB, Mario Kart's, 3D Land's had Y do the same function as A so you can use Y/B if you want...?

I know for sure that's how I played 3D Land and MK7.
 
In response to Shadow Hog

Haven't all the NSMB, Mario Kart's, 3D Land's had Y do the same function as A so you can use Y/B if you want...?

I know for sure that's how I played 3D Land and MK7.
3D Land and NSMB do, yes. I think they even let you change them to A/B if you prefer.

Mario Kart, I think might have had accelerate on Y, at least for 7? It's been a while.
 
Since we are on topic of controllers,

How would people felt if touch screen would replace "second analog or stick?" So basically if you want quick strong attacks then you have to tap touch screen to perform those attacks.
That's gross. But I guess the 3DS version will have to make concessions for controls regardless. I'm not sure if I prefer that or just losing the c-stick altogether. At least if the functionality was just gone, I wouldn't have to touch the screen.
 
But seriously, who uses a grab button anyways when you can just Shield + Attack on the same frame
Also, CPP support pls

Edit: I will probably jump with R and shield with L. Y for specials, B for attacks.
 
I wonder how playing Smash would be on a 360 / XBO controller. The 360 controller (don't have an XBO so I can't say) is my favorite controller ever, the only thing that competes is the GCN controller and that's just for Smash.

The 360 controller is the worst controller for a fighting game. Street Fighter 4 is unplayable with it. The 360 controller is 100% the reason I got an arcade stick.
 
But seriously, who uses a grab button anyways when you can just Shield + Attack on the same frame

Jump canceled grabs tho. (Not like they're hard without a grab button but it's more comfy that way.)

Edit: The 360 controller isn't terrible unless you're strictly d-pad. I played Marvel with some pretty demanding characters using the control stick.
 
But seriously, who uses a grab button anyways when you can just Shield + Attack on the same frame
Also, CPP support pls

Edit: I will probably jump with R and shield with L. Y for specials, B for attacks.

I made Y my grab button in Project M.

Why? It's an all-purpose button. I can aerial, l-cancel, and grab all in the course of literally one second or less. by pressing that button three times.
 
I always used r+a for grabs in smash, so no z button is fine with me. Plus, you can just customize the controls presumably, so put one of the jump buttons (probably x and a on 3DS) as a grab.

And I'm certainly really looking forward to the 3DS version. No way is it inferior to me.
 
I use Wii Remote sideways in Brawl, so I'm very used to up for jump now. It makes Up Tilts practically impossible though.

I think a dedicated button is better. I'm gonna have to try to get my muscle memory back to using a button instead of up.
 
I always used r+a for grabs in smash, so no z button is fine with me. Plus, you can just customize the controls presumably, so put one of the jump buttons (probably x and a on 3DS) as a grab.

And I'm certainly really looking forward to the 3DS version. No way is it inferior to me.

I didn't even know you could use shield + a to grab until I read this post >_>
 
I guess I'm the only one who use Up for jumps
I used to back in the day, and probably still do unless I need to do a short hop. I have a lot of trouble doing hops on the CCpro, but haven't got a Wii U Pro controller yet. May invest in one for Smash/MK.

Kinda bummed MK8 doesn't support CCpro so I have a wider selection of controllers, especially since Gamecube isn't an option now, I'm guessing Smash will follow suit.
 
I wonder how playing Smash would be on a 360 / XBO controller. The 360 controller (don't have an XBO so I can't say) is my favorite controller ever, the only thing that competes is the GCN controller and that's just for Smash.
I've been using the 360 controller for Project M on Dolphin and I think it's great, honestly. Don't know if that's just bias for thinking it was the best controller last gen or what, but if the Pro Controller (which is extremily similar in design) plays similarly than I honestly don't think most players will have a problem with SSB4.

Like I've said before, I'm far more paranoid about how the 3DS version will control due to how flimsy I've found some of the buttons on it.
 
No, I deliberately didn't go to the center of the A button so I could keep the diamond shape that I always saw the Gamecube controller as having, in spite of it being more concave than that. That was, in all honesty, an attempt to make it more like the CCPro than to make it different from it.

That said, the part about the gray line bisecting the red/blue angle is still true even if I raise the point that rests on the A button - it's just now bisecting a reflex angle instead of an obtuse one:

smashgc2sykdq.png


And yes, I understand your image depicts how, say, you see it, but what I'm trying to explain is how I see it, despite people continuing to tell me that I'm seeing things wrong.

Either way, the way they've done it, it puts my thumb at the rightmost edge of the console, and it just doesn't feel natural there. Using that button for the most important function of the game causes my thumb sprains if I play for not too long at all (going by repeated playing of Mario Kart DS or Mario Kart 7). My thumb gravitates to B/Y, and playing there doesn't cause me sprains. Nintendo of the '90s realized this, designing it so the most-used function was on B and most-used secondary function was on Y, so it boggles my mind that Nintendo of the mid-'00s to today instead insists on putting it on A and B respectively - it makes sense when looking purely at the letters on the controller, but it doesn't feel ergonomic at all. I think this factor trumps any L-shaped formation of buttons, in all honesty.


I'm not just describing how I see it, I'm describing how it is. The problem with the change you made to your criteria when it came to the GCN controller is that it's changing facts to make them fit what you already think. Reality didn't fit your view so you tried to change reality instead of your view. The fact is that it doesn't make that diamond shape. The A and B buttons are much closer to how they are on the pro controller. The only thing really different is that one of the jump buttons is across from B instead of to the right of A. Maybe that will be better since you don't have to move your thumb as much when doing jump attacks.

CZsZfy5.jpg
 
A isn't on the right, so no, they're not at all close to how they are on the Pro Controller. It's on the bottom center. Like B on the Pro Controller. This really isn't at all hard to grasp, man.

A is up and to the right of B on both controllers. A jump button is up and to the left of A on both controllers. The only difference is one jump button is up and left of B instead of right of A.

CZsZfy5.jpg
 
The 360 controller is the worst controller for a fighting game. Street Fighter 4 is unplayable with it. The 360 controller is 100% the reason I got an arcade stick.

You haven't tried playing it with a mouse and keyboard have you? Your fingers will hate you for ever.
 
Holy crap, finally-- a fascinating discussion.

I'm nervous about the Pro controller. I'll probably get used to it, but I'd still much rather have GC support. Nintendo should never update that controller, it's perfect.
 
A isn't on the right, so no, they're not at all close to how they are on the Pro Controller. It's on the bottom center. Like B on the Pro Controller. This really isn't at all hard to grasp, man.

A is up and to the right of B on both controllers. A jump button is up and to the left of A on both controllers. The only difference is one jump button is up and left of B instead of right of A.

CZsZfy5.jpg

RagnarokX is right that, relative to each other, the three buttons you use are in the same positions on the GC controller and the CC. Unless you used X to jump, your thumb tip would rest on jump, your knuckle on attack, and you would shift your thumb over to press Special.

So I think the difference Shadow Hog is going for is not in the positioning of the buttons relative to each other, but the position of Attack relative to the whole controller outline; more precisely, Attack being placed at the natural resting place for your thumb knuckle. The most natural resting place for your thumb knuckle on an N64 controller is A. The most natural resting place for your thumb knuckle on a GC controller is also A. But the most natural resting place for your thumb knuckle on the 3DS or CC is B, not A, because A is too close to the edge of the controller/handheld.

Whether or not the natural resting place for your thumb knuckle being on Attack is more important than special-attack-jump positional relativity will depend on each player.
 
RagnarokX is right that, relative to each other, the three buttons you use are in the same positions on the GC controller and the CC. Unless you used X to jump, your thumb tip would rest on jump, your knuckle on attack, and you would shift your thumb over to press Special.

So I think the difference Shadow Hog is going for is not in the positioning of the buttons relative to each other, but the position of Attack relative to the whole controller outline; more precisely, Attack being placed at the natural resting place for your thumb knuckle. The most natural resting place for your thumb knuckle on an N64 controller is A. The most natural resting place for your thumb knuckle on a GC controller is also A. But the most natural resting place for your thumb knuckle on the 3DS or CC is B, not A, because A is too close to the edge of the controller/handheld.

Whether or not the natural resting place for your thumb knuckle being on Attack is more important than special-attack-jump positional relativity will depend on each player.
Yeah, that's basically what I've been struggling to say in a nutshell.

I've just been having a really hard time saying it when I'm simultaneously being told that I should be finding other layouts natural, am the odd-man-out for not finding said layout natural, that my views are messed up and that I'm delusionally dismissing reality. I suppose I've made similar statements questioning the validity of other people's opinions in the course of this discussion, but sheesh!
 
I've been using the 360 controller for Project M on Dolphin and I think it's great, honestly. Don't know if that's just bias for thinking it was the best controller last gen or what, but if the Pro Controller (which is extremily similar in design) plays similarly than I honestly don't think most players will have a problem with SSB4.

Like I've said before, I'm far more paranoid about how the 3DS version will control due to how flimsy I've found some of the buttons on it.

I've been doing the same, I actually prefer the 360 controller for Smash. The 360 triggers have a much shorter throw with no extra click making it very easy to feather the trigger and wave dash with little effort. For the face buttons I use the classic controller layout with attack on the right face button and special on the bottom face button. The only negatives are sometimes bumping the awful 360 dpad causing accidental taunting and the sticks don't have grooves around them so hitting specific angles can be harder.
 
Playing Smash on a diamond-shaped layout is going to be tough, but we better get used to it. It's the norm now, and it will probably always be.

The controls are going to be incredibly awkward on the 3DS version though.
 
Playing Smash on a diamond-shaped layout is going to be tough, but we better get used to it. It's the norm now, and it will probably always be.

Anticipating that I'd have to make the switch eventually, I just bit the bullet with Brawl. It takes 30 minutes. It's really not that bad.
 
I've been using a Classic Controller Pro with Brawl for a while now seeing as my Cube controller broke. It works fine, really nothing to worry about.
 
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