Because being a guy is a norm for gaming?
You're not exactly in the same position as women.
The term 'girl gamer'
- Thread starter sploatee
- Start date
You're not exactly in the same position as women.
I'm actually passing judgement on you right now. Yes, I get to do that.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
If people don't like it, then whatever. But they need to keep it to themselves. I'm really not okay with people trying to police women's behavior (unless those women are acting racist, homophobic, transphobic, etc.)
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Welcome to being a responsible adult.
That's ok. I agree with you a bit. But I don't think there's anything wrong with men (or anyone) looking objectively and responsibly at how people identify. Just because someone has a hanging dong doesn't mean they can't have valid opinions and thoughts about women and feminism (which is kind of implicit in this sort of discussion)
MoGamesXNA
Unconfirmed Member
.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
I'm not interested in objectivism. I'm not trying to coddle men by giving them a pass to "objectively and responsibly" tell women what they can / cannot do. It's none of our business (I say "our" cause I'm a man, too). I'm fine with talking about how the term might have problematic dimensions to it, but I'm not okay with people (again, especially men) condemning women for using the term for attention, etc. It's simply none of our business.
PS: I've yet to see you make a solid critique of the term.
ElectricBlue187
Member
I'll put aside the implication that men can only disagree with women if you happen to agree with what they disagree about and make the point that finding someone's behavior gross and saying so out loud is quite a different thing from saying that women must cover their hair in public or go to jail.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
That's your comparison, not mine. There's many different ways in which men / patriarchy try to police women's behavior. Some more extreme than others. And this is not unique to Muslim nations.
Yes, I find that I simply cannot be riled up by the term "girl gamer." I wouldn't use it to describe myself but the vitriol towards streamers who do is upsetting. It's not even just this one term. Using a female avatar, or having a name that indicates being a woman/girl can be seen as "attention seeking" as well.
ElectricBlue187
Member
When you use the same language to describe both you cheapen and dilute your own argument. It's much easier to dismiss your opinion if you describe even mild criticism as "policing women's behavior"
SillyEskimo
Member
Back in the day, there really were no girls on the Internet. The ones that said they were girls were more often than not men pretending to be girls. They were called Manginas in EverQuest.
I think it's an old school carry over. My first thought is they are a male pretending to be female. My second thought is I don't care if you're a man or a woman so there's no need to tell me.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
If you can't understand that the word "policing" can have a range of applications and connotations, that's your problem, not mine.
Edit : I'm ducking out of this thread and moving on. I hope you all question the motivations behind your critiques of girl gamers and the fact that you perceive yourself as having a right to whine about how women self-identify.
I've yet to see you make a solid response either, other than try and angrily shut down all discussion!
Perhaps my thoughts (that's all they are, thoughts) were not 'solidly' expressed but I'll try again.
I wanted to know what others thought of the term. My instinctive reaction to it is that it's problematic in that:
1. By creating a separate category of 'girl gamer', it tacitly cedes the centre ground of just being a 'gamer' to men.
2. In doing that, it tacitly accepts that 'gaming' is, by default, male.
3. It also does that while being a form of self-promotion in many cases.
I have nothing against anyone who identifies as a 'girl gamer' and I've read posts here (i.e. it's a term that is adopted with a sense of pride and even defiance, that it's 'baby steps' to a more level playing ground) that have made me think. I might even change my mind once it's percolated.
But for now, I'd rather see more women who play games and who make games and the term 'girl gamer' strikes me as a form of self-ghettoization.
Hope that's solid enough for you. If it's not, better to explain why rather than be so combative. Have a cup of tea and some biscuits!
Edit: and you've left, having delivered your sermon. Blimey
where is the rest of the comic? always wondered what where 1 to 8
I have no problem with how women choose to self-identify, be it girl gamer, gamer, gamer girl, gurrrrrl gamer, whatever. I don't think any of them say much about the woman in particular, nor are any of them synonymous with attention seeking. I think there are definitely attention seeking women within that set, but I'm pretty okay with that, too.
Attention-seeking is pretty common on the internet. Anyone posting here is attention-seeking, given that we know thousands of people are reading our posts, and we are effectively on stage at all times. PewDiePew is certainly attention-seeking. None of this is bad. Humans like other humans to pay attention to them. That's completely normal. Some people are able to turn the attention paid them into cash revenue streams. I can't particularly see anything wrong with that, either. If I could turn my desire for gaming into cash money, I'd probably do that, particularly if all I had to do was play games I like on camera.
Honestly, I'm pretty happy in general with the increase in numbers of women playing games, and don't really understand why them identifying themselves as women and gamers is an issue.
Attention-seeking is pretty common on the internet. Anyone posting here is attention-seeking, given that we know thousands of people are reading our posts, and we are effectively on stage at all times. PewDiePew is certainly attention-seeking. None of this is bad. Humans like other humans to pay attention to them. That's completely normal. Some people are able to turn the attention paid them into cash revenue streams. I can't particularly see anything wrong with that, either. If I could turn my desire for gaming into cash money, I'd probably do that, particularly if all I had to do was play games I like on camera.
Honestly, I'm pretty happy in general with the increase in numbers of women playing games, and don't really understand why them identifying themselves as women and gamers is an issue.
Pretty much this. Although, what's most upsetting is when it's other women making the accusations.
Seraph_Nicholas
Member
When it comes to streams, youtube videos, let's plays, anything where I have the hear the person talk, being female (or a brit) is the only chance they have of me watching their video. I haaaaaaaaaaaaaate the voices of nearly everyone on the internet, but with the increasing prevalence of Youtube over GameFAQs for game info, I'm often forced to sit through someone who's never even heard of an equalizer narrating some secret or procedure at length with their microphone firmly inserted in their sinuses. A female narrator makes this closer to tolerable then it would be otherwise.
One thing's for sure, if I ever involve myself with anything on camera, I'm hiring a pretty girl with a beautiful smile and a melodic (maybe british?) voice to sit in front of it.
One thing's for sure, if I ever involve myself with anything on camera, I'm hiring a pretty girl with a beautiful smile and a melodic (maybe british?) voice to sit in front of it.
I use Pro. I'm THAT good!
Red font for GAF handles of the mods is a form of attention seeking as well. "Look at us, we're red in the midst of all these greyed out or black plebes".
TheNoblePirate
Member
The term itself seems to be an unfortunate circumstance of our society and its views on gaming in general. It comes out of this perceived notion that gaming is an inherently male activity, and since it's been perpetuated through language that dismisses the idea of female gamers, it makes sense that many would want to differentiate themselves from the perceived norm by attaching the modifier to the label. The unfortunate part is that by doing this, it reinforces the difference, that a girl gamer is different than a gamer, that they are exceptions to the reality of the label...and it spirals this perception that they aren't the same, and the consequence is that there still isn't equality for the label...a gamer is still stereotypically male, unless the modifier is attached...and to make matters worse, there are people that take advantage of it to give the impression that 'girl gamers' are just attention seekers...the whole thing is kind of just depressing, really.
If you've never been a minority it can be really difficult to understand what it's like, and among gamers being female definitely puts you in a minority. Some people will prefer to reinforce the fact that they don't consider themselves an outsider by refusing to be characterized as a girl gamer, or a gaming senior, or whatever. Others will carry their differences as a badge of honor and make a point of letting people know that there are indeed gamers who are women.
I'm a believer in letting people self identify. My wife and I have been known to describe ourselves as geek girls, and why not? We're proud of our involvement in the technical field and believe it's a positive label. I can assure you we're not trying to get male attention in the process. News flash: I don't dress for other people, either. It's just a form of self-expression. The term "gamer" doesn't have wholly positive connotations, but so what? Neither did geek. Or queer. There's a long and noble tradition of reclaiming a term by being proud of what it means to you. Nobody is required to take part, but anyone who makes a positive difference by doing so has my respect.
I'm a believer in letting people self identify. My wife and I have been known to describe ourselves as geek girls, and why not? We're proud of our involvement in the technical field and believe it's a positive label. I can assure you we're not trying to get male attention in the process. News flash: I don't dress for other people, either. It's just a form of self-expression. The term "gamer" doesn't have wholly positive connotations, but so what? Neither did geek. Or queer. There's a long and noble tradition of reclaiming a term by being proud of what it means to you. Nobody is required to take part, but anyone who makes a positive difference by doing so has my respect.
HowlingMad
Banned
Male gamers = Guys (terminology that indicates an adult)
Female gamers = Girls (terminology that indicates a child)
Female gamers = Girls (terminology that indicates a child)
Later tonight I'll be playing Titanfall topless on Twitch. Make sure you donate!
FunkyLounge
Member
Hey check me out, I am a total man-gamer.
Does it sound stupid?
Just like girl-gamer.
Does it sound stupid?
Just like girl-gamer.
SillyEskimo
Member
I have no problem with how men choose to self-identify, be it man gamer, gamer, gamer guy, guuuuuuy gamer, whatever. I don't think any of them say much about the man in particular, nor are any of them synonymous with attention seeking. I think there are definitely attention seeking men within that set, but I'm pretty okay with that, too.
Attention-seeking is pretty common on the internet. Anyone posting here is attention-seeking, given that we know thousands of people are reading our posts, and we are effectively on stage at all times. PewDiePew is certainly attention-seeking. None of this is bad. Humans like other humans to pay attention to them. That's completely normal. Some people are able to turn the attention paid them into cash revenue streams. I can't particularly see anything wrong with that, either. If I could turn my desire for gaming into cash money, I'd probably do that, particularly if all I had to do was play games I like on camera.
Honestly, I'm pretty happy in general with the increase in numbers of men playing games, and don't really understand why them identifying themselves as men and gamers is an issue.
I'm female and I have a problem with it when I've seen it used to take advantage of others/gain attention. I guess that makes me one of those women "making an accusation", but I've seen enough trash to have a valid opinion on the subject.
Example: Barren's chat, back in the day anyone? LOL but serioulsy, I have no clue if it still happens there or whatnot, but it was annoying. It would have been annoying had it been any superficial thing that someone uses to have an advantage over others, rather than putting in the work and skills it takes to get what you have. My main was female because it was fun, but I never insinuated I actually WAS female unless guildmates found out or were curious or what have you. After two years, I did notice a trend that after men I played with found out I was female, there was a definite change in communication styles, discussions, inclusion (they wanted to include me more than they had before, were more tolerant of mistakes, etc.) and interest shifts.
So I'd like to think that it simply "doesn't matter" how you identify, and it's great to hear so many people here say they don't care, but any male or female in an opposite sex dominated arena deals with issues of attention because they stick out amongst the community.
Edited to add that in the case where the gamer is identifying their sex to gain attention for streams specifically, and the viewer choose to support them because they're female doesn't actually bother me. If you're mediocre or suck and are using the female tag to get attention, that's your perogative. I just dislike those that use something as superficial as their gender to make the rest of us look bad.
I know. We're all just chimps grooming each other.
Was that aimed at me? If so, blimey that stings.
I get that. I'd still rather see 'us' take the term 'gamer' though. But I don't disagree with anything you've said.
May I ask why it matters if someone is seeking attention for something they like?
I don't like the idea that if you're not playing JRPG's or other genres other than shooters, you're not a "true gamer" but just someone seeking attention.
I've seen these accusations thrown out all the time and it's really gross. I play all kinds of genres but I'm not going to look down on someone for playing, say, COD and enjoying it and thinking they're a gamer.
Yup, I strongly agree with this!
I think to be more appropriate it'd be boy gamer, but that actually does kind of sound like someone trying to get the attention of girls.
chaobreaker
Member
Wow. Did not expect the amount of ignorance in this thread.
TheNoblePirate
Member
Oh, and I forgot to specify that my opinion above is merely my humble perspective, based on my own anecdotes of second hand experiences of women gamers I know...I obviously can't even fathom what it must really be like to be in their shoes, although the whole situation about it still really sucks. I don't have any answers for how to address the issue of labels either, since it appears upon reading the thread that the label of gamer is controversial in itself, even though I do not personally mind it. I just wanted to offer an opinion.
I'll join in with the 2-3 other people that've posted about not disliking the gamer term. I mean if ya ask me its a step up from nerd lol. I guess people could confuse video gamers with people who "game the system" gamers but I'd think that'd be few an far between.
Yups! This is super right!
The internets been like that since forevers! An even with facecams, social sites, an many peeps being less anonymous in general stuff like "pics of gtfo" and "get on the mic and prove it" still exist! Ideally it'd die out over time wether girls kept quiet or obliged.
Now theres an idea. Instead of "gamers" we could call ourselves "players"! Not to be confused with playas, naturally!
Total opposite for me! I see anything but pure gameplay - male, female, an anyone inbetween I just keep on scrolling by looking for something else ta watch!
FunkyLounge
Member
I did not make my point clear, that was just a shout into the thread.
What I tried to play of is the notion of making your gender and stereotypical attitude your main point to gain attention. I have no problem with associating yourself with a certain crowd until it becomes a pose.
maquiladora
Member
This is something that goes beyond just gaming though. Women are often referred to as "girls" in society up to the age of ~30.
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
Just identifying as female online, for anything, is interpreted by many guys as 'broadcasting' or attention whoring. As the default internet gender, it's fine for men to say nothing, but why get so bent out of shape when woman say they're women online? If we say nothing, women are the mythical unicorns that don't exist online and aren't gamers (how many 'girls don't play video games' or 'girls don't count as a gamer bc the games they play aren't real games'' threads/arguments have we had?), and if we do, we're solely in it for attention. I'm not saying there aren't people who do go for that (men and women), but the only ones putting them on a pedestal are men. Just treat them like normal people. That's what women are.
I guess in my experience, the mere act of being a woman and being in a group meant that I was there for attention. And this came from other women, in the same group, who apparently were there for "legitimate" reasons and decided they were the judge. This is also like, in person, where it's a bit hard to hide the fact that I'm female. Those are the times where it makes me pretty upset, yeah. So when I see other women hating on girls online and deciding that they aren't "true" gamers, it reminds me of those instances. As far as streaming goes, I'm not involved in that stuff, but it seems like the point is to get views. And if you don't like the way they are advertising themselves, it's not like you're forced to watch or to emulate those things on your own channels. There will always be people, of both genders, who use their appearance to get somewhere. As long as people realize that it's not a trait that every person of the female gender has, that's fine. And there's something to be said about trying to "normalize" the female body and not make it something that has to be hidden.I'm female and I have a problem with it when I've seen it used to take advantage of others/gain attention. I guess that makes me one of those women "making an accusation", but I've seen enough trash to have a valid opinion on the subject.
Example: Barren's chat, back in the day anyone? LOL but serioulsy, I have no clue if it still happens there or whatnot, but it was annoying. It would have been annoying had it been any superficial thing that someone uses to have an advantage over others, rather than putting in the work and skills it takes to get what you have. My main was female because it was fun, but I never insinuated I actually WAS female unless guildmates found out or were curious or what have you. After two years, I did notice a trend that after men I played with found out I was female, there was a definite change in communication styles, discussions, inclusion (they wanted to include me more than they had before, were more tolerant of mistakes, etc.) and interest shifts.
So I'd like to think that it simply "doesn't matter" how you identify, and it's great to hear so many people here say they don't care, but any male or female in an opposite sex dominated arena deals with issues of attention because they stick out amongst the community.
Edited to add that in the case where the gamer is identifying their sex to gain attention for streams specifically, and the viewer choose to support them because they're female doesn't actually bother me. If you're mediocre or suck and are using the female tag to get attention, that's your perogative. I just dislike those that use something as superficial as their gender to make the rest of us look bad.
Then again, I tend to use my own picture as my avatar on this forum during the RealPic months, so I'm sure many people think I'm just doing it for attention.
Actually, not at all. D: I think you've made good arguments for using the term gamer without the female signifier.
MoGamesXNA
Unconfirmed Member
.
charlequin
Banned
No, this claim was pretty much always bullshit from the start.
It's hard to understand why people object so strongly to this term (the vast majority of hobbies have participants who have no problem identifying themselves with that hobby) unless it's some kind of residual shame and embarrassment about playing videogames, in which case... y'all are posting on an ultra-nerd forum, dudes.
Fuck me this thread's a graveyard!
As for the term girl gamer there's nowt wrong with it. Not personally something I would say to/call a woman playing games but if people want to start streams called 'girl gamer' or refer to themselves in that way then that's cool by me. Live and let live is what I say, certainly not hurting anyone.
As for the term girl gamer there's nowt wrong with it. Not personally something I would say to/call a woman playing games but if people want to start streams called 'girl gamer' or refer to themselves in that way then that's cool by me. Live and let live is what I say, certainly not hurting anyone.
Didn't Aeana talk about her Usenet days once, just as an example of someone here who was there before many people here were?
I think fairly or not a lot of it just comes up when we see the worst of the worst or just those that get really annoying and want to be distanced from that. My opinion probably fluctuates there more than I realize (otherwise I'd never use it) but sometimes you see someone act like an ass on the gamer topic and want to be distanced from that, even if it might be illogical since there's bad apples in every group.
I guarantee you that I've been on the internet longer than almost everybody in this thread. Probably before some of them were even born. So don't give me that.
SillyEskimo
Member
I was not talking in absolutes.
How's this?
The ratio back in the 1990's was so heavily skewed towards males as to make one believe there were no females actively creating or consuming the content. That included video games.
MoGamesXNA
Unconfirmed Member
.
What was the ratio? [citation expected]